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iMacfan · Mar 16, 2006, 05:47 PM

Whatever I do, I'll always be a Mac user - but I have a big desire to build my own PC, especially as with careful selection of components, you can get a decent gaming rig with XPpro for the price of a Mac mini.

Does anyone have any advice, especially wrt how to manage data between your computers. I'll also be getting a large FW/USB drive - barring the ability to boot, does it really make a difference what format I use?

The irony of all this is that my main computer (12" 1.33 PBG4) will be far, far slower than my backup PC!

David.

SSharon · Mar 16, 2006, 06:18 PM

Your mac cannot write to ntfs drives (it can only read them) so take that into consideration for your external. And if its not NAS then don't connect it to both computers at the same time expecting them to both be able to use it.

On a side note, how much is an XP pro licesnse that you can build a PC for cheaper than a mac mini?

meelk · Mar 16, 2006, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by SSharon

Your mac cannot write to ntfs drives (it can only read them) so take that into consideration for your external. And if its not NAS then don't connect it to both computers at the same time expecting them to both be able to use it.

On a side note, how much is an XP pro licesnse that you can build a PC for cheaper than a mac mini?

~$140 for pro.
~ $90 for home
although building a gaming pc for less than a mini is kind of a pipe dream. I supposed it depends on the games you want to play.

greenamp · Mar 16, 2006, 06:25 PM

If you're going to build one go all out and get the best of everything. If you're just gonna build a mediocre system you may as well just buy a dell. That is unless you just want to do it for a project.

And meelk is right, a good gaming rig will cost you more than $800 to build.

mduell · Mar 16, 2006, 06:31 PM

I'd think about NAS (Network Attached Storage) instead of a FW/USB drive, so you have always-on, always-available storage for both your Mac and PC.

SSharon: XP Home is $90, XP Pro is $140.

mduell · Mar 16, 2006, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by greenamp

If you're going to build one go all out and get the best of everything. If you're just gonna build a mediocre system you may as well just buy a dell. That is unless you just want to do it for a project.

And meelk is right, a good gaming rig will cost you more than $800 to build.

To get a Dell with an option for a good GPU (from Dell) you have to start at about $600; you could take the $300 special and add a good video card if you're not concerned about the whole system being under one warranty.

Even while sticking with quality name-brand components, you can build a quite nice gaming rig for $600-800. The tradeoff between CPU, RAM, and GPU depend on what game(s) you're targeting.

Rumor · Mar 16, 2006, 06:38 PM

Pricewatch is a great resource for finding parts. Go with AMD over Intel, they're better for gaming. Also, ATI generally is the gamers choice over Nvidia. Look for a HD that spins at 10000 rpm. If you want good sound, look for something made by Creative Labs. Ethernet could be onboard. If it's going to be used for gaming only, try to keep it simple and that will help keep the price down.

Doofy · Mar 16, 2006, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by iMacfan

Does anyone have any advice, especially wrt how to manage data between your computers. I'll also be getting a large FW/USB drive - barring the ability to boot, does it really make a difference what format I use?

Don't bother with that - just network the two together and share your My Documents folder. Use the money saved to buy a larger internal PC drive and/or get yourself a better graphics card.

Spliffdaddy · Mar 16, 2006, 06:48 PM

www.newegg.com is a wonderful place to find the parts you need. Kinda short on advice, though. If you browse through the customer-generated wish lists you can see what other people would buy if they wanted a budget gaming rig. Here's an example of a sub-$800 machine > https://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion...Number=1958679

Also, check out their 'Top 10 sellers' to see where the true bargains are.

meelk · Mar 16, 2006, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Pricewatch is a great resource for finding parts. Go with AMD over Intel, they're better for gaming. Also, ATI generally is the gamers choice over Nvidia. Look for a HD that spins at 10000 rpm. If you want good sound, look for something made by Creative Labs. Ethernet could be onboard. If it's going to be used for gaming only, try to keep it simple and that will help keep the price down.

eww. avoid pricewatch. pick a retailer you now and trust, even if the prices are a bit higher. the lowest prices on pricewatch are often from the most horrible retailers imaginable, with the lowest reseller ratings score ( http://www.resellerratings.com/ ). I dont know if that scores UK resellers, since the OP appears to be in the UK, but there might be something similar that does.

mduell · Mar 16, 2006, 06:49 PM

[QUOTE=Rumor]Pricewatch is a great resource for finding parts.

Sure, if you don't mind making 10 orders from 10 companies to save $5; pick one reliable vendor to buy everything from (I like Newegg).

Originally Posted by Rumor

Also, ATI generally is the gamers choice over Nvidia.

SLI is better than CrossFire, and nVidia currently has the hot-new-card.

Originally Posted by Rumor

Look for a HD that spins at 10000 rpm.

Sure, if you're building a $1500+ box; not in a sub-$1000 box.

greenamp · Mar 16, 2006, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

To get a Dell with an option for a good GPU (from Dell) you have to start at about $600; you could take the $300 special and add a good video card if you're not concerned about the whole system being under one warranty.

Even while sticking with quality name-brand components, you can build a quite nice gaming rig for $600-800. The tradeoff between CPU, RAM, and GPU depend on what game(s) you're targeting.

You can build a mediocre gaming rig for $600-800. A good rig will cost at least $1600-1800 in parts not including shipping. My point is, it's not worth the time and money building a PC for gaming if you can't spend more than $800 on parts.

If all a person has to spend on build a gaming PC is $800, they are better off saving their money and doing it right. And Meelk is right again, pricewatch is a waste of time. The low prices on Pricewatch are for refurb items and shady dealers who gouge you on shipping. Save yourself the headache and buy everything from NewEgg.

Doofy · Mar 16, 2006, 06:52 PM

For parts in the UK, just pop down to your local independent store (US chaps would call this "mom and pop store") - it's much easier and usually cheaper. Avoid local Maplins or PC World. Check your locals out in Yellow Pages.

Doofy · Mar 16, 2006, 06:56 PM

Oh, and guys... ...the top Mac Mini with a gigabyte, 120 Gb HD, wired keys/mouse and no monitor will set you back $1,430 here.

dale · Mar 16, 2006, 06:57 PM

Wouldn't it just be easier to buy an xbox, or something (and put the extra cash saved towards your next Mac)?

meelk · 07:38 PM

just for giggles I assembled (on newegg) what I would consider a very good, current gaming pc. I personally would substitute an x2 3800 in for the 3500+, but its another $100, so I didnt list that option.
Prices listed are US.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103603 3500+ $201

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145574 2gig corsair xms $195

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102007 x1800xt $300

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131530 asus A8N-E $95

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811112099 lian-li 7b plus II $90

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822144424 400gig WD drive $210

*********************************************** pick your dvdr $50

total $1141

~$1200 shipped.

edit. oops, forgot the power supply. add another $75 in

the X1800xt almost across the board better than the 7900gt. I subbed it in when I realized it had dropped in price to the $300 point its at now.
Some people will have qualms with this system as its not SLI, and ATI instead of Nvidia, but hey, its my list, not yours.

meelk · Mar 16, 2006, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by dale

Wouldn't it just be easier to buy an xbox, or something (and put the extra cash saved towards your next Mac)?

Competitive gaming is so full of hacks now as to not be fun anymore. There is a cottage industry that sprang up with the express purpose of defeating punkbuster, which they do, all the time.
Consoles are probably the better option, as sad as that is.

I Bent My Wookiee · Mar 16, 2006, 07:34 PM

I've never understood people who buy a computer JUST for gaming spending $1200 (sometimes for just one game) but then says Macs are too expensive.

meelk · Mar 16, 2006, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

I've never understood people who buy a computer JUST for gaming spending $1200 (sometimes for just one game) but then says Macs are too expensive.

I dont know that for most people its the expense. I honestly think people who build their own computers just dont think they will get the same joy out of having one shipped to them.

iMacfan · Mar 17, 2006, 02:27 AM

Wow - I only went to sleep - I didn't hibernate!

Sure, I'm going to be skimping a bit, and there are a few things which I'd like to improve on in time, but my budget is limited, and the main purpose of the task is actually to have a decent XP computer when I need it, not gaming - sorry if that didn't seem clear. FYI, these are roughly the specs I'll be getting:

Athlon64 3200+
Abit Socket 939 Mobo - AGP, but will accept dual core chips, and has FW and Gbit Enet on board.
512Mb DDR400 (or maybe x2)
Cheap ATA Seagave 80Gb 7200 HD
LG 16x DL DVDR
Radeon 9550/9600 256Mb 8x AGP card
Case, etc...

David.

Super Mario · Mar 17, 2006, 03:00 AM

There's a new Geforce card with two chips on it and can be run in SLI mode for quad GPU gaming!

Tomchu · Mar 17, 2006, 03:17 AM

No no no. You're going about this all wrong.

DO NOT get AGP. Get a PCI-E board for sure. Get one with integrated video if you have to, but make sure it's PCI-E for God's sake.

AGP is on its last legs, and you simply won't find a high-end AGP video card when it's time to buy.

The second thing is Socket 939. Avoid it. Wait a while and get a Socket AM2 system (Athlon 64 + DDR2). There will be somewhat of a price premium on AM2 the first few weeks that it is in major retail, but again, the wait will be worth it, because Socket 939 is a very limited upgrade path now.

meelk · Mar 17, 2006, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

No no no. You're going about this all wrong.

DO NOT get AGP. Get a PCI-E board for sure. Get one with integrated video if you have to, but make sure it's PCI-E for God's sake.

AGP is on its last legs, and you simply won't find a high-end AGP video card when it's time to buy.

The second thing is Socket 939. Avoid it. Wait a while and get a Socket AM2 system (Athlon 64 + DDR2). There will be somewhat of a price premium on AM2 the first few weeks that it is in major retail, but again, the wait will be worth it, because Socket 939 is a very limited upgrade path now.

you're talking limited upgrade path to someone buying a 3200. a 939 board will take him all the way to the FX60 (dual core, 2.6ghz, meg of cache per core) I wouldnt consider that limited considering hes talking about generalized computing applications. Its not worth the wait, or the premium.

Nivag · Mar 17, 2006, 08:00 AM

I source most of my PeeCee bits from these guys http://www.ebuyer.co.uk - it's always good to read the reviews people leave on each components. I found out the motherboard I was about to buy didn't like the graphics card.

starman · Mar 17, 2006, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

The second thing is Socket 939. Avoid it. Wait a while and get a Socket AM2 system (Athlon 64 + DDR2). There will be somewhat of a price premium on AM2 the first few weeks that it is in major retail, but again, the wait will be worth it, because Socket 939 is a very limited upgrade path now.

LOL! Wrong.

starman · Mar 17, 2006, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by iMacfan

Wow - I only went to sleep - I didn't hibernate!

Sure, I'm going to be skimping a bit, and there are a few things which I'd like to improve on in time, but my budget is limited, and the main purpose of the task is actually to have a decent XP computer when I need it, not gaming - sorry if that didn't seem clear. FYI, these are roughly the specs I'll be getting:

Athlon64 3200+
Abit Socket 939 Mobo - AGP, but will accept dual core chips, and has FW and Gbit Enet on board.
512Mb DDR400 (or maybe x2)
Cheap ATA Seagave 80Gb 7200 HD
LG 16x DL DVDR
Radeon 9550/9600 256Mb 8x AGP card
Case, etc...

David.

Abit? No, go Asus. Far superior. Also, go PCI-E, not AGP.
512 MB RAM? No. Get 1GB at least.

You may be on a limited budget, but you're going to regret getting 1/2 a gig of RAM. What's the point in putting together a gaming rig if you're going to get your ass spanked because your framerate's so low?

Super Mario · Mar 17, 2006, 08:22 AM

Don't forget your mobo's mojo must have dual core and dual SLI support yummmmm

starman · Mar 17, 2006, 08:25 AM

I just went dual SLI. OMG it's frickin' AMAZING. The only issue I have is that WoW breaks when I try to alt-tab out. Blizzard blames nVidia, nVidia blames Blizzard. Not only is everything faster, but I'm getting NO LAG in WoW anymore, and a nice side-effect is that UT99 now runs NATIVELY in 1920x1200! I could never get that to work with my ATI x800 properly.

Doofy · Mar 17, 2006, 08:31 AM

I've had time to think about this and I think we're going about it the wrong way, not actually addressing the thread title...

"Building a PC from the perspective of a Mac user"

Right... So...

£20 for a cheapo case from your local mom and pop store.
£20 for some ready-mix concrete from B&Q or somewhere.

There ya go. £40. Should be heavy enough to prop any door open.

Spliffdaddy · 09:31 AM

If I'm not mistaken, the only way to get SLI support is to use nVidia graphics cards on a nVidia chipset motherboard with dual PCIe slots (which are spaced wide enough apart so the 2 cards don't physically interfere with one another).

Even if you don't use 2 video cards *right now* it would be nice to have the option in the future.

SLI = Scalable Link Interface

Originally, 3DFX popularized the 'SLI' setup with its Voodoo2 PCI graphics cards - years ago. Though they defined SLI as 'Scan Line Interleave'.

SLI became impossible when AGP hit the scene - by virtue of the fact that there was only one possible AGP slot - and that slot was faster than 2 GPUs on the PCI bus.

ATI has recently started shipping GPUs with 'CrossFire' daisychain technology - which is similar to nVidia's SLI concept, except CrossFire communicates across the DVI ports. It requires that one of the 2 cards be a special 'CrossFire' version.

Dell's new 'Renegade' PC will ship with FOUR nVidia GPUs on 2 separate cards. Each card is simply 2 cards stacked together. ouch. Can you say 800watt power supply?

starman · Mar 17, 2006, 09:53 AM

4 GPUs is ridiculous and unnecessary today. If I can get the framerates I'm seeing with modern games, what in God's name are you going to get with 4 GPUs?

Spliffdaddy · 12:04 PM

If you build the bandwidth, they will come.

Quad SLI Smackdown - this is a link to the Dell Renegade quad setup.

And a Quad SLI motherboard - with proper spacing for 4 individual GPUs - OR 4 dual-GPU cards (8GPU)

iMacfan · Mar 17, 2006, 12:26 PM

Thanks once again for all the opinions - this is, after all, just meant to be an occasional use windows machine, that can do games, and I really don't care about that last FPS - a game at 800x600 and low settings isn't really that much worse for me than everything at top quality - what matters is the gameplay and the story.

I see the point of making sure that you have the most amount of expandability possible, but there is a great deal of improved components for these boards, and I'm sure that will continue for a bit. Also, when you do have a brand new socket, you also need a brand new component, and so prices begin to skyrocket.

As for the Abit motherboard - I bought it because it comes with SATA, Firewire, Gbit Enet, the 939 socket, and is supposed to allow lots of control for overclocking and general maintenance. Also, it was cheap, probably because of the AGP.

Thanks also for those who suggested eBuyer - I'd seen some mixed reviews, but they seem to have been great at both price and getting together a package of about 15 items within a few hours and shipping it out. All I need now is for CityLink's Saturday service to come through for me!

Oh yes, I did get two 512MB DIMMS - the MoBo has dual channel, which should be good!

David

exca1ibur · Mar 17, 2006, 12:39 PM

DFI MB can ives you SLI/PCIe, s939, and high OC potential.

Save even more money going with a A64 - 3000+ (Venice core) as they can usually OC to FX speeds. Mine has been running 2.5GHz on stock cooling no problem. My total cost was about the $900 range for a gaming/test w/ an nVidia 7800GT.

Good buy sources....

newegg.com
monarchcomputer.com

Tomchu · Mar 17, 2006, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by meelk

you're talking limited upgrade path to someone buying a 3200. a 939 board will take him all the way to the FX60 (dual core, 2.6ghz, meg of cache per core) I wouldnt consider that limited considering hes talking about generalized computing applications. Its not worth the wait, or the premium.

By the time he wants to upgrade that 3200+, where will he find a faster Socket 939 CPU for anything but top-dollar? Have you looked at the price of Pentium 3 Tualatins lately?

Originally Posted by starman

LOL! Wrong.

Compelling argument. I concede.

Frickin' idiot.

Super Mario · Mar 17, 2006, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

If you build the bandwidth, they will come.

Quad SLI Smackdown - this is a link to the Dell Renegade quad setup.

I want!

A) Dualcore Pentium 4 Smithfield 3.46Ghz with HT Extreme Edition
2GB memory
8GPU Nvidia SLI
Raid 0 config'd hard drives
Blu Ray

Cost: 5 brazillion bucks!

Or

B) X-Box 360 and PS3?

Which shall I choose?

meelk · Mar 17, 2006, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

By the time he wants to upgrade that 3200+, where will he find a faster Socket 939 CPU for anything but top-dollar? Have you looked at the price of Pentium 3 Tualatins lately?

Compelling argument. I concede.

Frickin' idiot.

Older stuff floats around dirt cheap everywhere, if you look a bit.

Spliffdaddy · Mar 17, 2006, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

I want!

A) Dualcore Pentium 4 Smithfield 3.46Ghz with HT Extreme Edition
2GB memory
8GPU Nvidia SLI
Raid 0 config'd hard drives
Blu Ray

Cost: 5 brazillion bucks!

Or

B) X-Box 360 and PS3?

Which shall I choose?

The Dell XPS Renegade. It has a factory overclocked 4.26GHz Intel Extreme processor and a total of 2GB of RAM on the 4 video cards alone. A 150GB 10K RPM hard drive *and* a pair of 7200 RPM hard drives in RAID 0 configuration. All for between $4,000-7,000 depending on the options. It ships in a month or so.

You won't even be able to get a PS3 until November. Unless you sell your soul.

olePigeon · Mar 17, 2006, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

The Dell XPS Renegade. It has a factory overclocked 4.26GHz Intel Extreme processor and a total of 2GB of RAM on the 4 video cards alone. A 150GB 10K RPM hard drive *and* a pair of 7200 RPM hard drives in RAID 0 configuration. All for between $4,000-7,000 depending on the options. It ships in a month or so.

Includes a free tac welder and copper pipe.

Tomchu · Mar 17, 2006, 04:03 PM

Pentium 4s are shite for gaming. They don't even come close to touching Athlon 64s.

iMacfan · Mar 17, 2006, 04:05 PM

Whoa! - 4 graphics cards and a PSU that will melt the national grid - even I have more of a life than that!

But seriously - I really did mean 'light gaming'.

David.

CRASH HARDDRIVE · Mar 17, 2006, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Abit? No, go Asus. Far superior.

Seconded. Asus all the way. I've always gotten great bang for the buck from Asus and rock solid performance in many PCs I've built.

Anyway...
In general- B.Y.O. is the best way to go with PCs. After you do it and realize how cost effective/simple/gratifying it actually is, you'll question the sanity of some stencil-sticker company to not only robbing you of the pleasure of putting together a superior setup yourself, but charging you through the nose for little more than their logo, and acting as a middle man for parts already under their own warranties.

Put all the 'switch' nonsense behind you. It's good to have both, it's good to build it yourself for PCs, and no matter what it'll improve your Mac use by offloading tasks to another machine.

iMacfan · Mar 17, 2006, 06:55 PM

Does anyone have any recommendations for games - my favourite of all time was Deus Ex, and anything like that would be great, I'm just not sure if there is any better, despite the improvements in graphics.

David.

exca1ibur · Mar 17, 2006, 08:13 PM

My current top two right now...

F.E.A.R. - My current fav FPS
Guild Wars - None of that 'pay to play' BS online RPG

meelk · Mar 17, 2006, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by iMacfan

Does anyone have any recommendations for games - my favourite of all time was Deus Ex, and anything like that would be great, I'm just not sure if there is any better, despite the improvements in graphics.

David.

if you like adventure games: The Longest Journey
point and click, several years old, but simply put, the best adventure game ever made.
the sequel, Dreamfall, comes out this year.

Super Mario · Mar 18, 2006, 03:10 AM

AMD is going to get its ass kicked in all dept soon so go Intel.

iMacfan · Mar 18, 2006, 06:30 AM

Well, everything has arrived, and I'll be building it this evening. I might even post some pictures. It's my first time building anything bigger than an Ikea side table, so wish me luck!

I must say that I'm pretty impressed with eBuyer - but they mucked up on the other item I ordered - I ordered a 400Gb USB/FW external Seagate HD - instead of that, they sent me a SATA, internal, OEM WesternDigital 250Gb HD - Simple mistake, Hmmm. Does anyone know how easy it is to sort this out with eBuyer - might they let me keep the extra HD and give me a refund for the rest? My MoBo has SATA - can I use both at the same time?

Thanks,

David.

Tomchu · Mar 18, 2006, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

AMD is going to get its ass kicked in all dept soon so go Intel.

Umm ... I'm not following your logic. Intel is going to have some good stuff coming out soon, so go Intel now and ignore AMD? WTF?

Right *now*, Intel still has the worst processor out there for gaming. What will him going Intel now help, other than Intel's wallet?

Doofy · Mar 18, 2006, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by iMacfan

I must say that I'm pretty impressed with eBuyer - but they mucked up on the other item I ordered - I ordered a 400Gb USB/FW external Seagate HD - instead of that, they sent me a SATA, internal, OEM WesternDigital 250Gb HD - Simple mistake, Hmmm..

You must be pretty easy to impress if they're making mistakes like that and you're OK with it. This is exactly why I suggested going to your local shop - it's easy to fix screw-ups locally, not so easy with mail order.

iMacfan · Mar 18, 2006, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

You must be pretty easy to impress if they're making mistakes like that and you're OK with it. This is exactly why I suggested going to your local shop - it's easy to fix screw-ups locally, not so easy with mail order.

I know what you mean - I'm actually pretty hard to impress. What I was trying to say was that shipping out everything else on time, within 24hrs, at very low prices, has impressed me. The screw up is very dissapointing given the rest of the service.

Anyhow, I managed to get everything together, though I swear I thought I was going to damage the motherboard - it just didn't want to line up with the studs. But I'm currently formatting the HD, and no error messages! Here's hoping for some half life within the next couple of hours!

David.