[abe]

Was Michael Corleone Morally Justified in Killing Carlo?

If your brother-in-law intentionally caused your brother to be killed would you be MORALLY justified in killing him?

New Godfather, Michael Corleone discovered that Carlo sold out the family and triggered a set of actions that predictably led to Sonny Corleone's ambush and murder.

Carlo was married to Connie Corleone, Sonny, Fredo and Michael's sister.

Even though Michael made his sister a widow I'd say he was morally justified in killing Carlo because Carlo 'killed' Connie's brother, Michael's brother, the head of the family.

Not keeping score, per se, but Michael had an obligation to avenge his brother's death and as the new Don it wouldn't do to have Carlo walking around healthy.

Bad business.

What do you say?

[KeriVit]

Yes. It's the family business. Their morales say yes.

[El Gato]

That's a tough one, Sonny did throw Carlo one hell of an ass-whooping. I mean, he hit the dude with a freaking trash can lid! No self-respecting man would sit idly by and take that **** - Carlo might as well have bought some tampons if he wasn't going to do anything about his ridiculous beat down in front of the whole neighborhood.

If Sonny didn't want to get his ass capped, he should have finished the job himself. Instead he left a mess for his younger brother to clean up. What a punk bitch.

[abe]

Originally Posted by El Gato

That's a tough one, Sonny did throw Carlo one hell of an ass-whooping. I mean, he hit the dude with a freaking trash can lid! No self-respecting man would sit idly by and take that **** - Carlo might as well have bought some tampons if he wasn't going to do anything about his ridiculous beat down in front of the whole neighborhood.

If Sonny didn't want to get his ass capped, he should have finished the job himself. Instead he left a mess for his younger brother to clean up. What a punk bitch.

Carlo knew the Corleone business and how business is done. The Godfather don't play. Carlo was beating the GODFATHER'S DAUGHTER! Sonny warned Carlo about ****in with Connie before. If you abuse your boss' daughter you must expect an ass whoopin. Carlo only had a job because of the famiglia in the first place. He had no rights.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by abe

New Godfather, Michael Corleone discovered that Carlo sold out the family and triggered a set of actions that predictably led to Sonny Corleone's ambush and murder.

Am I misremembering or was Sonny Corleone the new Godfather and went to war. Then Carlo set him up after that beating he got. Then Sonny got killed and Marlon Brando "made peace" (saying he'd share the judges and protection in NYC) with the other leaders. Then he made Michael Corleone the new Godfather.

I believe he was completely justified though, I mean come on, he's Michael Corleone. I wouldn't ever tell that man he was in the wrong. The question you should be asking is "Was it moral for that guy to come up behind Tony Montana and shoot him in the back with the shotgun?"

[abe]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Am I misremembering or was Sonny Corleone the new Godfather and went to war. Then Carlo set him up after that beating he got. Then Sonny got killed and Marlon Brando "made peace" (saying he'd share the judges and protection in NYC) with the other leaders. Then he made Michael Corleone the new Godfather.

I believe he was completely justified though, I mean come on, he's Michael Corleone. I wouldn't ever tell that man he was in the wrong. The question you should be asking is "Was it moral for that guy to come up behind Tony Montana and shoot him in the back with the shotgun?"

Can you believe I have NEVER watched Scarface all the way through from beginning to end?

But let's not veer from Michael Corleone and Carlo.

Just due to the fact that he messed with Connie was grounds for 'termination.' He was stupid.

And careless.

VITO CORLEONE

It's an old habit. I spent my life trying not to be careless -- women and children can be

careless, but not men.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by abe

Can you believe I have NEVER watched Scarface all the way through from beginning to end?

But let's not veer from Michael Corleone and Carlo.

Just due to the fact that he messed with Connie was grounds for 'termination.' He was stupid.

And careless.

Hehe, no problemo, u gotta watch the movie though.
I even agreed with Michael when he had his brother wacked, so a wifebeater won't get any Godfather sympathy from me.

[abe]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Hehe, no problemo, u gotta watch the movie though.
I even agreed with Michael when he had his brother wacked, so a wifebeater won't get any Godfather sympathy from me.

When Michael confronts Fredo in Cuba on New Years Eve and kisses him and tells him, "you broke my heart" I hope everyone understands that it really did break something in Michael.

In the Cuban sex show, when Michael overheard Fredo reveal his duplicitous betrayal, Michael broke down.

When did we EVER see Michael cry in ANY of the three films?

It was like the final straw.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by abe

When Michael confronts Fredo in Cuba on New Years Eve and kisses him and tells him, "you broke my heart" I hope everyone understands that it really did break something in Michael.

In the Cuban sex show, when Michael overheard Fredo reveal his duplicitous betrayal, Michael broke down.

When did we EVER see Michael cry in ANY of the three films?

It was like the final straw.

3 films?
My brother, you speak wrongly again.
There is only Godfather and Godfather II.
What is this 3rd film you speak of, careful what you say!

[abe]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

3 films?
My brother, you speak wrongly again.
There is only Godfather and Godfather II.
What is this 3rd film you speak of, careful what you say!

I'm old school. Give Francis his props for putting a book-end on it.

Godfather III had to be created. Too many people (like me) idolized those characters and found that mentality admirable. That's a mode I go to for fun. Serious fun.

But when the fun is over it is important to make sure those who are even more impressionable than I understand that the Corleone family should be seen in the naked light of day, as extremely likable but very flawed people who preyed on the weaknesses of mankind and killed according to their code.

Their loyalties weren't so much to America but to the family.

It was good to show the truth of such a morality tale. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Yup. Godfather III.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by abe

I'm old school. Give Francis his props for putting a book-end on it.

Godfather III had to be created. Too many people (like me) idolized those characters and found that mentality admirable. That's a mode I go to for fun. Serious fun.

But when the fun is over it is important to make sure those who are even more impressionable than I understand that the Corleone family should be seen in the naked light of day, as extremely likable but very flawed people who preyed on the weaknesses of mankind and killed according to their code.

Their loyalties weren't so much to America but to the family.

It was good to show the truth of such a morality tale. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Yup. Godfather III.

Talk not to me
for I'll not speak a word.
Do as thou wilt,
for I have done with thee.

I did like the end though, but saying that makes me feel like the kid in Shakespeare in Love that liked to see all the killing. The music was acceptable, and regrettably I'll admit that the story did need to be told. It would have been so much better if Coppola's daughter hadn't had such a starring role. Sometimes I actually think it's a good movie, but then her acting comes back to remind me that it is not so.

[abe]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Talk not to me
for I'll not speak a word.
Do as thou wilt,
for I have done with thee.

I did like the end though, but saying that makes me feel like the kid in Shakespeare in Love that liked to see all the killing. The music was acceptable, and regrettably I'll admit that the story did need to be told. It would have been so much better if Coppola's daughter hadn't had such a starring role. Sometimes I actually think it's a good movie, but then her acting comes back to remind me that it is not so.

Can I say this and make it sound not crazy? Various times throughout the movie I found myself wishing I was Andy Garcia.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by abe

Can I say this and make it sound not crazy? Various times throughout the movie I found myself wishing I was Andy Garcia.

Because he was so hardcore or because he was with Ms. Coppola? She's kinda pretty to some people I suppose, but I'm more jealous of him in Things To Do In Denver When You're Dead and Ocean's 11 with Julia Roberts. He's a great actor, that film was filled with great actors, but she pulled the level of acting down and it was really missing that level of intensity of the previous films. Too much of Rambo's wife too!

[abe]

Godfather actor killed in accident

Posted online: Friday, March 03, 2006 at 0000 hours IST

Richard Bright, a character actor who appeared in all three Godfather movies and more recently on The Sopranos, was struck and killed by a bus, it is understood.Bright, 68, was hit by a private academy bus as he crossed the street at about 6.30 p.m. last Saturday in his Manhattan neighbourhood.

Bright played mob enforcer Al Neri in the Godfather movies, a bodyguard to the Corleone family patriarchs played by Marlon Brando and Al Pacino. He played a con artist hustling Ali McGraw in 1972’s The Getaway and acted in dozens of other films such as Sergio Leone’s Once Upon a Time in America and Looking for Mr. Goodbar and in TV shows such as Hill Street Blues.

It may be recalled that Bright was arrested in 1965 on an obscenity charge for the language he used in a San Francisco production of poet Michael McClure’s two-person play The Beard, which was shut down. The American Civil Liberties Union took up the case and the charges against Bright were later dismissed in what was considered a precedent for artistic expression rights.
http://www.screenindia.com/fullstory...ntent_id=12059




"Godfather" Actor Richard Bright Killed

by Josh Grossberg
Feb 21, 2006, 1:00 PM PT


Richard Bright, a versatile character actor who traversed both stage and screen but was best known as the Corleone family's enforcer in all three Godfather films, died Saturday in New York City after he was accidentally hit by a bus. He was 68.

According to police, Bright was crossing a street in his Upper West Side neighborhood at approximately 6:30 p.m. when the rear wheels of a tour bus struck him as it made a turn.

a d v e r t i s e m e n t



Unaware that he had hit someone, the driver continued on his route and wasn't informed of the incident until investigators questioned him at the end of the line. Bright was transported to an area hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

During his four-plus decades in movies and television, Bright worked steadily, often playing hard-edged characters on both sides of the law.

In 1972's The Getaway, starring Steve McQueen and Ali MacGraw, Bright was a con-man who ends up duping McGraw's character and in turn suffering the wrath of McQueen's Doc McCoy.

But Bright's biggest claim to fame was as Al Neri, Al Pacino's chief bodyguard in the Godfather trilogy. In The Godfather Part II, Neri was the muscle charged with sending Michael Corleone's disloyal older brother Fredo to sleep with the fishes during a fateful boat ride at the end of the movie.

Born on June 28, 1937 in Brooklyn, Bright began acting at an early age in the theater. His sturdy good looks and no-nonsense demeanor enabled him to segue into film and television, beginning with a small part in director Robert Wise's 1959 film, Odds Against Tomorrow. Bright followed up with his first big breakout role as Hank the burglar opposite a relatively unknown Pacino in 1971's Panic in Needle Park.

Bright was cast as Neri in 1972's The Godfather, but unlike Pacino and James Caan, who found themselves suddenly transformed into mega-stars, Bright continued toiling in the background as highly regarded character actor.

Among his othes: 1976's Marathon Man, 1977's Looking For Mr. Goodbar, 1983's Two of a Kind, 1984's Once Upon a Time in America, 1986's Brighton Beach Memoirs, 1988's Red Heat, 1994's The Ref, 1996's Beautiful Girls and 1999's Joe the King.

On the tube, Bright appeared on Hill Street Blues, The Equalizer, Oz, Third Watch and more recently The Sopranos and Law & Order and its two spinoffs, Criminal Intent and Special Victims Unit.

Bright also maintained a love affair with the stage. In 1965, he was arrested in San Francisco on obscenity charges for cussing up a storm in poet Michael McLure's two-person drama, The Beard. The play was forced to close, but with the aid of the American Civil Liberties Union, Bright was able to get the charges dismissed in a vital victory for the freedom of artistic expression.

Bright also teamed with Pacino on a variety of productions, including Richard the III at New York's Cort Theater in 1979.

Plans for funeral services had not been released. Bright is survived by his wife, actress Rutanya Alda, and son Jeremy Bright.

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,...00.html?fdnews

[abe]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Because he was so hardcore or because he was with Ms. Coppola? She's kinda pretty to some people I suppose, but I'm more jealous of him in Things To Do In Denver When You're Dead and Ocean's 11 with Julia Roberts. He's a great actor, that film was filled with great actors, but she pulled the level of acting down and it was really missing that level of intensity of the previous films. Too much of Rambo's wife too!

Yeah. For all of the above but the secret reason is because of Sofia. She isn't as much attractive to me because of her physical beauty, although there's enough of that to keep her in the ball game, but it's her manner. She has a seductive persona. In a different film her personality and more natural talent could have been shone in it's best light. Too bad it wasn't this one, but her assets needed to be given a chance. I'd have 'hit it' for a long time.

Rambo's wife! Ha!!!! Nice one. Got it after three mental somersaults.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by abe

Yeah. For all of the above but the secret reason is because of Sofia. She isn't as much attractive to me because of her physical beauty, although there's enough of that to keep her in the ball game, but it's her manner. She has a seductive persona. In a different film her personality and more natural talent could have been shone in it's best light. Too bad it wasn't this one, but her assets needed to be given a chance. I'd have 'hit it' for a long time.

Rambo's wife! Ha!!!! Nice one. Got it after three mental somersaults.

IMDB the younger Coppola, she's had her chances. Her name even gave her a chance to direct or produce, meh. I was so looking forward to Lost in Translation.....she can't do that well either.

And RIP to Richard Bright.

And yeah, how did Ms. Balboa ever get an acting job. She's been the most annoying character in every movie she's in.

[abe]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

IMDB the younger Coppola, she's had her chances. Her name even gave her a chance to direct or produce, meh. I was so looking forward to Lost in Translation.....she can't do that well either.

And RIP to Richard Bright.

And yeah, how did Ms. Balboa ever get an acting job. She's been the most annoying character in every movie she's in.

The Coppola family:

Father Carmine composed a part of the musical score

Sister Talia Shire played the sister of the don

Daughter Sofia Coppola was the daughter of Michael Corleone

Nephew Nicolas Cage auditioned but was rejected

Paramount tried to go ahead with the film for many years without either Francis Ford Coppola or Mario Puzo's involvement. No less than twelve scripts were written. At one point, they were even close to signing Sylvester Stallone to direct and star in the film.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by abe

The Coppola family:

Father Carmine composed a part of the musical score

Sister Talia Shire played the sister of the don

Daughter Sofia Coppola was the daughter of Michael Corleone

Nephew Nicolas Cage auditioned but was rejected

Paramount tried to go ahead with the film for many years without either Francis Ford Coppola or Mario Puzo's involvement. No less than twelve scripts were written. At one point, they were even close to signing Sylvester Stallone to direct and star in the film.

So are you saying they bribed Coppola to make the film with nepotism? If so, at least elder Coppola was wise enough to leave Mr. Cage out of the movie.

[The Godfather]

My gut felt it was the right thing.

[Big Mac]

I'm glad you brought up The Godfather, because it's usually playing around my house on a regular basis. Michael was justified in administering justice for Sonny - Carlo betrayed the family, and that's simply impermissible.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

My gut felt it was the right thing.

Godfather, you know I have the utmost of respect for you. I ask one favor of you. Could you get the PL disbanded for at least a few months and give the people that frequent that area no more reason to bring those animosities from there to this lounge? If not, could you wack most of the conservatives and the ultraliberal? That's all I ask, a small favor.

[Dakar]

It was the right thing to do... within their world.

[faragbre967]

I think a better question is do you think Michael was justified in killing Fredo? I personally think he should have kept him alive, Fredo was basically retarded and everyone knew it.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by faragbre967

I think a better question is do you think Michael was justified in killing Fredo? I personally think he should have kept him alive, Fredo was basically retarded and everyone knew it.

He didn't kill Fredo, he had him killed. He was basically retarded enough to try to get Michael killed, so he was basically retarded enough to be killed for it.

Not to derail the thread, but I couldn't help but notice your location. Grosse Point is a real place? I thought it was made up for the movie! Awesome! Is there any reason the writer picked your town as the setting for that movie?

[Dakar]

Good to see I'm not the only fan of that movie (Grosse Point Blank)

[Cody Dawg]

Yes.

He was beating the hell out of his sister, remember? He was warned once - beaten up over it - and then he kept on doing it.

You plays with de big fishes so you lays with de big fishes, capisce?

[faragbre967]

It's Grosse Pointe, with an extra e (I don't know why). I think they chose it because it's a super rich, super conservative, super traditional town where the last type of person to come out of it would be a hit man. That movie is great though, even though there's really only a few shots of actual Grosse Pointe. If you want to pm me and I'll send pics of the places the movie referred to and made sets for.

[Dakar]

Mr. Newberry: What have you been doing with your life?
Marty: Uh... professional killer.
Mr. Newberry: Oh! Good for you, it's a growth industry.

[abe]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

My gut felt it was the right thing.

Congrats on hitting 3000!

(Symbolically kisses his ring)

[abe]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Godfather, you know I have the utmost of respect for you. I ask one favor of you. Could you get the PL disbanded for at least a few months and give the people that frequent that area no more reason to bring those animosities from there to this lounge? If not, could you wack most of the conservatives and the ultraliberal? That's all I ask, a small favor.

I know what you are up to, naughty boy, but I will play along.

Anyone who does not want to take part in the spirited play of the P/L can say so and they should be afforded the respect due a civilian. But if they try using that 'badge' of safe conduct as a shield behind which they might levy attack after attack then what?

A reason for more attacks.

Ultraliberals are already wacked and wacky.

LET'S END THE P/L DERAIL SHALL WE?

[abe]

Originally Posted by faragbre967

I think a better question is do you think Michael was justified in killing Fredo? I personally think he should have kept him alive, Fredo was basically retarded and everyone knew it.

Of course it is. And that is the point, beyond which, we might easily tread without recognizing the implications.

That's just one of reasons The Godfather is a film classic. Coppola was so effective in putting you in the Corleone 'corner' that you suspend or forget or abandon your real sense of values and totally identify with these rather unsavory folk.

In every drama there must be a turning point.

Turning point:The observable moment when, in a story or play (or indeed in many kinds of narrative), there is a definite change in direction and one becomes aware that it is now about to move towards its end. This is a change of fortune; what Aristotle described as peripeteia, or reversal. It is the equivalent of reaching a peak and beginning the descent beyond. In tragedy, especially, one is conscious of this crucial or fulcral point..
members.
fortunecity.es/fabianvillegas/drama/glossary-t.htm

This turning point takes place late in G2 and without a G3 it is like waiting for the other shoe to drop. G3 finishes the WHOLE story.

The DeNiro flashbacks to Vito's start in America scream at us the differences between father and son. They show us how Vito did what he did out of love and how Michael did what he did out of a more complicated set of impulses. Love for his father and wanting to be like him. Fear of having everything fall apart when subjected to the scrutiny of the public and of incorruptible law enforcement officials...in essence, changing times.

Having Fredo killed MADE SENSE!

Fredo was going to be a danger to Michael's life and his reign. When you swing a hammer for a living every problem on the job becomes one where you think of how to use your hammer to solve it.

Fredo became a problem and Michael did what Michael did best. He eliminated the problem.

And at THAT point the viewer should be morally shaken by what has happened. And, lest the moment and momentous importance of the act went by and left us still in the 'ether,' Coppola leaves Michael sitting alone on his estate looking out onto Lake Tahoe in as much turmoil as Michael Corleone has ever been.

'Hey viewer, wake up! Think about why Michael looks so glum!!! Something terrible has happened here!'

For a long time, too long I'm ashamed to say, this moment passed over my heart without getting more than a nod from me.

You are right, faragbre967. Fredo WAS basically retarded. But in his own way, Michael was basically retarded too, which was pointed out in G3. And even Vito Corleone, who was smart and wise and loving can't escape the fact that what he did was basically wrong and that no matter how lovely the picture is painted of him the evils he did and the evil world he lived in produced children with birth defects. Defects that the dimmest of viewers, like me, could only understand with the passage of time (gaining some maturity and some time to THINK about the lessons of the film) and with the final film in the trilogy, G3.

By watching these THREE FILMS a person (most likely a young man) might gain in a few hours the wisdom of many lifetimes.

Fredo died for our salvation.

[Monique]

It is kind of funny that you are debating a 30 years old movie; but that was great cinema. The third was quite good except for 2 mistakes, casting Sofia Coppola and the fact that Michael and Kay did not become lovers. Garcia was just great and Pacino always gives great performances.

In the second movie Michael looks pensive because he is afraid to have lost his family to revenge and hate and remember what the lost started; when they celebrated Don Vito's birthday during the second world war.

No one talked about the great performance of a very young De Niro.

I just loved the feel of the photography and the temporal history line of the second one; the violence of the first one; which was at the time taboo in movies and never seen. Everything was so sanitized and then came Coppola and Scorcese.

[abe]

Originally Posted by Monique

It is kind of funny that you are debating a 30 years old movie; but that was great cinema. The third was quite good except for 2 mistakes, casting Sofia Coppola and the fact that Michael and Kay did not become lovers. Garcia was just great and Pacino always gives great performances.

This is an example of a film that will be enthralling audiences a hundred years from now and it will always be relevant to current times. I agree with you that it would have been nice if they had become lovers, but that could have opened up other avenues for an already long film to explore, thus making it even longer.

In the second movie Michael looks pensive because he is afraid to have lost his family to revenge and hate and remember what the lost started; when they celebrated Don Vito's birthday during the second world war.

No one talked about the great performance of a very young De Niro.

You are right again, Monique. I suspect the reason I tend to overlook DeNiro's great performance is because he does the same thing that only great performers can do, they make the difficult look easy. DeNiro's role looks deceptively simple. But it wasn't and you are right. It is easily overlooked, I think, because he does it so well.

I just loved the feel of the photography and the temporal history line of the second one; the violence of the first one; which was at the time taboo in movies and never seen. Everything was so sanitized and then came Coppola and Scorcese.

There was a span of time from the late 1960's until about 1975 when a BOATLOAD of GREAT filmmakers made a sh1tload of great films in Hollywood. Many of them became film classics and yet many of those films, if they were submitted to studios today, would not get made.

The Godfather films and Coppola are examples of that.

And, I hope I'm not embarrassing you, but I want you to know I recognize the progress you've made with your English. It is VERY impressive! Monique, you never cease to amaze me!