Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

iDoctor · Apr 6, 2006, 06:45 AM

I have posted this before, and now after Boot Camp ..
Native Mac OS X software is dead.

Read Aspyr Media Officer
"From a business standpoint, I suspect Aspyr is, in the short term, going to continue releasing Mac ports as before and see where the market takes us. If Mac sales tank, we've got enough revenue coming in from PC and console ports that it probably won't hurt the company too much and we'd just focus on the other platforms. It's possible that the Mac market share could increase so dramatically that the demand for Mac games increases enough to offset the costs of the loss of sales to dual-booting, but I'm not so optimistic about that."

It will only encourage companies to slack and not port/code software for Mac
W.

cybergoober · Apr 6, 2006, 06:49 AM

If you say so…

Super Mario · Apr 6, 2006, 06:55 AM

You mean OS X gaming is going to suffer. As if it was an important part of using a Mac in the first place.....

Boot Camp will do something very important. It will allow Windows users to directly experience the difference between using Windows and OS X without leaving the computer. When they see the messy interface of Vista compared to the refined Leopard they will only ever use Windows for games........if they don't have a console

jamil5454 · Apr 6, 2006, 07:05 AM

There's two possible outcomes. This is one, and OS X taking off is another. Who knows, Apple could introduce their version of WineX; I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

starman · Apr 6, 2006, 07:19 AM

Since you're obviously NOT a developer and NOT in any position to make decisions, you're obviousyl WRONG.

Doofy · Apr 6, 2006, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

Boot Camp will do something very important. It will allow Mac users to directly experience the difference between using Windows and OS X without leaving the computer.

Fixed.

rickey939 · Apr 6, 2006, 07:27 AM

Apple will be out of business by noon today.®

Cody Dawg · Apr 6, 2006, 07:43 AM

Get your eyes checked, iDoctor, and see that Apple stock went up almost 10%...yesterday alone.

harrisjamieh · Apr 6, 2006, 07:46 AM

I'm betting on OS X taking off when the general public hear that they can run windows on a mac:

i) increased demand for Macs, due to stylish design (which is nothing new), and the fact that people are safe in the knowledge that they can have their beloved windows - a great combination for the average Windows user.

ii) As people get the new Macs, and boot up for the first time, they will see Mac OSX, and have a little play with it. The average computer user is relativly inexperienced with computers, and only know how to do basic tasks. For this reason, when they see small things in OS X such as the Genie minimise effect, Expose, and the way icons glide around, they will be impressed. They will carry on exploring OS X, then decide its time to install windows, at which point they realise how poor Windows actually is, and they will switch to using OS X most of the time.

at least thats my theory...

- - e r i k - - · Apr 6, 2006, 08:05 AM

iDoctor · Apr 6, 2006, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by starman

Since you're obviously NOT a developer and NOT in any position to make decisions, you're obviousyl WRONG.

You need not be a developer to draw a conclusion.
Have you ever emailed a company for Mac support and got told to use Virtual PC? Now . . here you go .. "Virtual PC" with native speed .. you have no excuse to request a Mac vesion of anything !

starman · Apr 6, 2006, 08:33 AM

As a developer and decision maker in a rather large and well-known company that makes Mac software, this release does NOTHING to change our view on Mac development. People that buy Macs aren't going to spend and extra $500 or so on a laptop just to run Windows under BETA software. This is for people that need to run both, not one or the other. It's convenient - no longer do you have to have two computers.

I think that people should stop with the knee-jerk "Apple is dead" reactions.

Dork. · Apr 6, 2006, 08:35 AM

OK, I've got a wild theory here....

All BootCamp does is enable dual booting of Windows XP alongside the Mac. (I assume booting of Linux is possible, too.) But there's still one major problem with it -- you still need a licenced copy of Windows! For a potential switcher, this drives up the cost of buying a Mac "just to try it out". Even though you bought an OEM copy of Windows on your current PC, you can't necessarily transfer it without runnign afoul of the license. So, right now, a consumer would need a full retail copy of XP to even consider trying this (legally), and developers and businesses need to check their license agreements to see if Intel-based Macs count as elegible machines.

Once this ceases to be beta software, this brings up some interesting scenarios:

- Will Apple sell retail copies of Windows XP alongside Mac OS X in the Apple Stores? That would be a hoot.

- Will Apple try and arrange for OEM pricing to bundle Windows alongside OS X? This woudl be a hoot, as well, since Microsoft has historically never liked systems that ship with more than one OS (where the second is not theirs, of course). And even though in the short term this would generate sales for Microsoft, it also shatters the cost barrier to switching which is the main thing propping up the monopoly. The easier it is for Windows users to switch, the harder it is for Microsoft in the long-term.

But Microsoft has already gotten in trouble in the past with discriminitory practices in its OEM licensing (for instance, charging OEM's for every PC they ship, whether or not it actually had Windows loaded on it.) Even though the current antitrust trial is kind of dead, the old judgements still stand. If Apple asks Microsoft for OEM licenses, and does not get the same deal that a similar PC vendor with the same Windows volume would get, do they have grounds to go to the DOJ and get them to enforce some of their earlier judgements?

If Apple plays this right, then even if native OS X software suffers in the short term (which I doubt, but it's a legitimate concern), then with so many people using Windows and OS X side-by-side, if OS X is truly the superior platform then it will gather more users (and, thus, more software) in the long term!

A hoot, I tell ya!

Chuckit · Apr 6, 2006, 11:02 AM

I don't think Apple wants to support Windows. I know I wouldn't.

11011001 · Apr 6, 2006, 12:12 PM

Games and software are two very different things. Games create almost all of their own resources, and rely on the operating system only for networking, 3D graphics, 3D sound, and HID support. The reasons for running it on one platform are on a technical level purely related to performance. Software on the other hand makes use of an operating systems GUI framework, and paradigms. This "look and feel" is not necessarily something that translates from one operating system to another.

Finally, on a technical level, most developers have no idea what a wonderful pleasure it is to develop with Apple's frameworks. The simplicity and grace of their hardware and software scales all the way down to the frameworks and kernel. Even despite this grace, the framework allows one to create sophisticated applications very quickly.

Mac gaming for the big PC titles for the time being is probably dead (except for a few notable exceptions: SIMS, WoW, etc). Mac software is only going to thrive from this point.

turtle777 · Apr 6, 2006, 12:14 PM

-t

::maroma:: · Apr 6, 2006, 12:19 PM

Its gonna be funny to read this thread in about a year or so. Bookmark it, and file it under "Apple Death Call #31154090435900^110" or under "Bunch of B.S."

goMac · Apr 6, 2006, 12:19 PM

I'll only buy games for XP when there is no Mac version.

So Aspyr would only lose sales of games they aren't selling to begin with. Net change for Aspyr? Nothing.

RAILhead · Apr 6, 2006, 12:20 PM

Mac users play games on their computers? Isn't that what GAME CONSOLES are for?

Dark Helmet · Apr 6, 2006, 12:25 PM

iDoctor is almost as dramatic as Salty.

CheesePuff · Apr 6, 2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Mac users play games on their computers? Isn't that what GAME CONSOLES are for?

While I agree with that statement for the most part, I must say playing FPS and other games feel so much better with a mouse and keyboard. I actually enjoy most games played on a computer.

demograph68 · Apr 6, 2006, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Mac users play games on their computers? Isn't that what GAME CONSOLES are for?

Yes. Yes, but computers are good for games too.

euchomai · Apr 6, 2006, 01:49 PM

iDoctor has the lowest post count I've ever seen for someone registered in 2001! That is awesome, sorry to derail the thread, I just noticed.

Doofy · Apr 6, 2006, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Mac users play games on their computers? Isn't that what BREASTS are for?

Fixed.

Big Mac · Apr 6, 2006, 03:13 PM

Don't get too bothered by the fanboys, iDoctor. I am not going to go quite as far as you - I cannot say authoritatively that Mac software is truly dead. But Apple's capitulation to Windows is yet another ominous sign post of where Apple is heading.

iDoctor · Apr 6, 2006, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by euchomai

iDoctor has the lowest post count I've ever seen for someone registered in 2001! That is awesome, sorry to derail the thread, I just noticed.

I guess I talk when it only matters

euchomai · Apr 6, 2006, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by iDoctor

I guess I talk when it only matters

Did you not learn the proper use of the poking stick? That was a wasted post! I was congratulating you and making the point you are now making, now 1/24th of your posts are you being a jerk! That is a high percentage.

stevesnj · Apr 6, 2006, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

iDoctor is almost as dramatic as Salty.

LOL my thought exactly

stevesnj · Apr 6, 2006, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by iDoctor

I guess I talk when it only matters

but not necessarily correct

Eriamjh · Apr 7, 2006, 07:14 AM

If Mac sales tank...

He's saying that if Mac users stop buying Mac games, then of course, there will be no more ports.

Simple business logic. Now get back to work.

CollinG3G4 · Apr 7, 2006, 06:41 PM

Mac software dead, Hadley.

Ever since the iPod, apple realized it could make some serious cash if they were willing to distance themselves from a nitch personal computer market and enter the mainstream.

Boot camp is the next step, the ultimate side-by-side comparison. Think about it, all the potential Mac buyers who wanted a Mac but were dependant on windows for some reason. Now they can have both. To that, once they get the feel of OS X, windows will be the equitant to classic support. You only need it ever once in awhile.

I suppose one could argue that Virtual PC has been around for years, but its emulation never could match the speed of an Intel chip.

Peter · Apr 8, 2006, 03:35 AM

thats like saying Linux gaming is dead because you could boot into windows, or you could run wine/cedega.

Kevin · Apr 8, 2006, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

iDoctor is almost as dramatic as Salty.

But not as nearly dramatic as you.

11011001 · Apr 8, 2006, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4

Mac software dead, Hadley.
...Boot camp is the next step...

Hehehehe, NeXT Step.. hehehe. I'm tired

hayesk · Apr 8, 2006, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by iDoctor

You need not be a developer to draw a conclusion.
Have you ever emailed a company for Mac support and got told to use Virtual PC? Now . . here you go .. "Virtual PC" with native speed .. you have no excuse to request a Mac vesion of anything !

You say to them "Fine. I will not buy your product. I will buy your competitor's product which has a Mac version."

If there is no competitor's product, then there is a market opportunity to create one.

ambush · Apr 8, 2006, 10:37 AM

you're nuts dude.

Big Mac · Apr 8, 2006, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by hayesk

If there is no competitor's product, then there is a market opportunity to create one.

There have always been market opportunities to fill in gaps in the Mac software lineup due to third parties not coding for the Mac. If third parties do the math and determine Mac development is no longer justified, it's highly unlikely that others will run to take advantage of those market opportunities.

hayesk · Apr 8, 2006, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

There have always been market opportunities to fill in gaps in the Mac software lineup due to third parties not coding for the Mac. If third parties do the math and determine Mac development is no longer justified, it's highly unlikely that others will run to take advantage of those market opportunities.

Actually, since MacOS X, many of those gaps have been filled. Now that Apple has a stable platform that can host many different development environments, developers are stepping up to the plate. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the Mac software market is in a much better place than it was five years ago.

Yes, I realize there are still gaps, and sometimes a Windows machine will be necessary. I guess my point was that I'm not going to roll over and just say "oh well, I guess you can have my money anyway" when inquiring about a Mac version. Even if I was forced to use someone's Windows product, I still wouldn't give them the satisfaction of knowing and would continue to ask for a Mac version.

iDoctor · Apr 8, 2006, 01:44 PM

Guys,

My title could have been a "little" bit too dramatic .. but that is beside the point

There are gabs in Mac OS X software. It is difficult to deny that ! It is a big list. Yes sometimes there are alternatives but they might not exactly what you want ..

I am not an engineer .. but I have seen many posts about "AutoCAD" .. Is there an equivelant software?
Statistics is another area were Mac software lags.
OCR and Vioce recognition are other examples
Even simple stuff .. Like a Microsoft Messenger with Video and voice chat is misssing .. and yes I chat is great .. the only problem is that 90% of my contacts have hotmail accounts and use messenger !

The point is .. I don't want to use Windows ! I buy a Mac to use it .. not to install XP and run messenger on XP !
And to the fanboys : I have been a Mac user since my first personal computer .. In fact I have alsmost never used PCs exept when I had to (at school or friends house .. etc), I have converted more PC users than any of you ! Even my birth date is Jan 24 .. some of you would know the association !!

I think we should deprive developers from excuses to avoid the Mac platform. Don't promote Windows on Macs .. I don't want to find this on my machine

http://www.eng.bu.edu/~anc/macosx_bluescreen/blue2.jpg

After what I said .. you guys can made me

goMac · Apr 8, 2006, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by iDoctor

Guys,

My title could have been a "little" bit too dramatic .. but that is beside the point

There are gabs in Mac OS X software. It is difficult to deny that ! It is a big list. Yes sometimes there are alternatives but they might not exactly what you want ..

I am not an engineer .. but I have seen many posts about "AutoCAD" .. Is there an equivelant software?
Statistics is another area were Mac software lags.
OCR and Vioce recognition are other examples
Even simple stuff .. Like a Microsoft Messenger with Video and voice chat is misssing .. and yes I chat is great .. the only problem is that 90% of my contacts have hotmail accounts and use messenger !

The point is .. I don't want to use Windows ! I buy a Mac to use it .. not to install XP and run messenger on XP !
And to the fanboys : I have been a Mac user since my first personal computer .. In fact I have alsmost never used PCs exept when I had to (at school or friends house .. etc), I have converted more PC users than any of you ! Even my birth date is Jan 24 .. some of you would know the association !!

I think we should deprive developers from excuses to avoid the Mac platform. Don't promote Windows on Macs .. I don't want to find this on my machine

http://www.eng.bu.edu/~anc/macosx_bluescreen/blue2.jpg

After what I said .. you guys can made me

Ummmmm...

The people who need AutoCAD will never switch unless they can run Windows. AutoCAD will never release a Mac version because their entire user group uses PC's. At least this way they can switch to Mac, run AutoCAD, and then whine about how nice a Mac version would be so that they didn't have to switch out of OS X all the time.

All other Mac porting houses seem to think the switch is positive, even Glenda at Aspyr. Brad Oliver is the only one saying it is a negative move.

And no one is forcing you to run Windows. Don't run Windows. No one will care.

Kevin · Apr 8, 2006, 03:43 PM

I think this whole bootcamp thing is showing who the true zealots are.

CHOICE is good.

ironknee · Apr 8, 2006, 04:01 PM

godboy knows

aristotles · Apr 8, 2006, 09:33 PM

iDoctor and Big Mac are the biggest clueless trolls/zealots around here. Game are only one type of software. I would say that games are a category of software where you do not notice the problematic nature of the underlying OS. I do not think mac users will put up with using other software under windows instead of OS X. People like iDoctor and BM think everyone bought a mac because of the hardware. I switched to the mac because of the OS and the applications. Games had nothing to do with it and the shiny hardware was only a small part of it.

iDoctor, you are the master of trolling through hyperbole.

Tuoder · Apr 8, 2006, 10:02 PM

I think that the vast majority of people are too intimidated by the idea of installing an OS to even try it. They would also have to drop some real dough to buy Windows. If Apple would include virtualization in OS X with a preinstalled copy of windows, then maybe it would matter. Right now, I don't think a whole lot of people will use this.

johnny_laconic · Apr 9, 2006, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by euchomai

iDoctor has the lowest post count I've ever seen for someone registered in 2001! That is awesome, sorry to derail the thread, I just noticed.

I have a lower post count but, of course, iDoctor had a 2 year head start to get all those extra posts...

gadger · 08:27 AM

Hi.. amongst all the discussions here... I just want to add my perspective.

I have abundant access to Macs on campus, but my personal computer is a ThinkPad-T43 running Windows XP. I love the OS-X platform and really appreciate the intuitive, visually appealing and in many ways is functionally superior to Windows. But being in electrical engineering, there are quite a bit of software ranging from small time tools for programming/debugging to full blown applications like Xilinx & Cadence that I have to frequently use.

Originally Posted by iDoctor

......

I am not an engineer .. but I have seen many posts about "AutoCAD" .. Is there an equivelant software?
Statistics is another area were Mac software lags.
OCR and Vioce recognition are other examples
Even simple stuff .. Like a Microsoft Messenger with Video and voice chat is misssing .. and yes I chat is great .. the only problem is that 90% of my contacts have hotmail accounts and use messenger !......

I think we should deprive developers from excuses to avoid the Mac platform. Don't promote Windows on Macs .. I don't want to find this on my machine

Alternative applications may exist on the Mac for these. But these applications are not a joke and it take several years perhaps to learn to use them efficiently. Many of these applications are almost as large as the OS taking up several GB of HDD space with a gazillion files. The companies that makes these are mostly at the cutting edge adapting to latest trends and technologies and for anyone who’s career lies on using them WILL NOT make any switch to other lesser applications that run on a MAC just for the benefits OS-X provides.

Granted that most people only need and will be using applications already available on a MAC, but a very large portion like me use Windows because there simply is no other alternative and without MAC gaining some serious user base, there will probably never be one.

Anyway, if BootCamp develops into a full fledged application and the whole process a success, my next computer will be a MAC... and so will many others. With this just 1 application like BootCamp, Apple has added many more users like me to their arsenal.

Originally Posted by harrisjamieh

ii) As people get the new Macs, and boot up for the first time, they will see Mac OSX, and have a little play with it. The average computer user is relativly inexperienced with computers, and only know how to do basic tasks. For this reason, when they see small things in OS X such as the Genie minimise effect, Expose, and the way icons glide around, they will be impressed. They will carry on exploring OS X, then decide its time to install windows, at which point they realise how poor Windows actually is, and they will switch to using OS X most of the time.

at least thats my theory...

Most personal computing PC users use nothing more than what can't be done with on a MAC right out of the box. Yet these millions, if not billions of users buy nothing other than a PC over & over again. The reason what I think is... they really don't care and are really in-experienced with computers. They don't want the hassle of learning a new system... all they want to do is email, chat with friends & family far away, see pictures & movies and play games once in a while. I use to work for Dell and I used to be amazed at the amount of really high end systems purchased by people who do nothing more than send emails!!! Systems that costs well above a MAC... There are some serious spending potential there and all their needs are met and exceeded by the OS-X. But getting them to try a MAC will involve playing Microsoft for some time. You need a move like BootCamp that will guarantee that people who are a bit educated & knowledgeable with computers who can install a new OS and stuff could make the shift. But to get those millions who just use their computers for email and stuff.. who are not going to take the trouble of installing windows.. Apple will need to sell their systems as a dual boot out of the box. In any case, Bootcamp will potentially gain many more users here... enough to probably take them over 10% user base in the very near future.

Originally Posted by aristotles

.... People like iDoctor and BM think everyone bought a mac because of the hardware. I switched to the mac because of the OS and the applications. Games had nothing to do with it and the shiny hardware was only a small part of it......

I doubt anyone will think that. There is no shortage of high quality hardware in the PC world if ou are ready to pay for it.. Speaking purely of hardware, I would stand my ground that my ThinkPad is superior to the PowerBook in almost all areas. It’s mainly the OS and other software that differentiate the two worlds and if I make a shift, it will only be because of the OS… and I like to think that most others too will do it for the same reason.

Apple Weekness:

1. Microsoft does not dominate just because of personal PC users. The major money lies in corporate frameworks... an area Microsoft has successfully penetrated recently and is Apples biggest weakness. To address this, first Apple has to become popular enough... then they need an OS that can handle the thousands of different services, applications & hardware that make up a corporate network. Microsoft has automated deployment engines like Active Directory etc.. where from a Windows based server, the administrator can monitor and control the other thousands of computers on a network.. what applications the users can open, what changes to software & hardware the user can make, automated software updates throughout the company, an integrated information & data delivery and processing environment etc etc.. Apple needs an OS that can handle this and even if they make one, it won't sell if the platform itself is not popular enough... and BootCamp is the first step in towards achieving that.

2. Apple does not have an OS for a Tablet PC. That is a massive market on its own and is estimated to be the biggest market ever with ever thinner laptops and sophisticated hand writing recognition and organization software in he future... That is one area they seriously need to address in-order to stay competitive. No matter how die-hard a MAC fan you are.. if you are doing college in the future and you see your classmates taking notes, recording lecturers and doing homework more efficiently all on an ultra thin Tablet PCs.. you'll make the switch. So is the case in a working environment.

............................

On a whole, I think this is one of the best moves Apple has made. No matter how good you are, you need more money to stay competitive and that requires more users... and BootCamp is the first step towards that direction. I realize many of you despise Windows, but that doesn't change ground reality. Apple needs to get into main stream if it really needs to survive... Opening up a single application like iTunes to the PC world shot their iPOD sales to previously un-imagined heights and brought the whole company new spending potential.... just the iPODs!!!! Now, its time they do the same with their computers... and again BootCamp is a step in the right direction.

analogika · Apr 9, 2006, 06:25 AM

I disagree on the Tablet PC market perspective - by all indications, the Tablet PC is an abortion. Plus, typing is quite a bit faster than handwriting notes, no matter how good the handwriting recognition is (Apple has most excellent handwriting rec technology integrated into OS X - Inkwell - so who knows what they might be planning).

Regardless: Your perspective is a very common one.

Boot Camp has been featured all over even the mainstream (i.e. non-tech) press, and the very next day we had customers come in who are dependent upon Windows software (one guy was a devleloper who programs the station announcement software for public transport using a very niche piece of software available only for Windows) expressing great relief that they can FINALLY buy a Mac.

(btw: it's "Mac" and "iPod", not "MAC" and "iPOD" - they're not acronyms. Just a favorite Mac-user pet peeve)

gadger · Apr 9, 2006, 08:23 AM

Not a debate, but note taking involves a lot of sketches... scribbling around and jotting points all over the page. Something impractical otherwise....

So Mac & iPod it is.. Thank you.

iDoctor · Apr 9, 2006, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by pIxIe

Not a debate, but note taking involves a lot of sketches... scribbling around and jotting points all over the page. Something impractical otherwise....

I guess you better keep your post count low !

Miniryu · Apr 9, 2006, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

Its gonna be funny to read this thread in about a year or so. Bookmark it, and file it under "Apple Death Call #31154090435900^110" or under "Bunch of B.S."

Its already filed there, along with all of the "iPod killers". I hear the iTMS is going out of bussiness soon too.