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angelmb · Apr 18, 2006, 01:41 AM

and Apple wants to let us know

Tomchu · Apr 18, 2006, 02:36 AM

Toooo far away. I want to see it now. :-)

Sijmen · Apr 18, 2006, 06:22 AM

I guess I'll be skipping Tiger

TheIceMan · Apr 18, 2006, 06:32 AM

Yup, like my brother. He missed out on Tiger, but the good news is he'll have Leopard to look forward to.

Cody Dawg · Apr 18, 2006, 07:30 AM

What makes it so great?

analogika · Apr 18, 2006, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What makes it so great?

I have a feeling that might be one of the things they'll be wanting to tell us around WWDC, don't you think?

mdc · Apr 18, 2006, 09:31 AM

I'm excited. Not really for a new Mac OS, but more to see what in the world Apple has come up with that will make Leopard so good.

Panther had Expose and Tiger had Dashboard and Spotlight. Three things that are awesome and I use them daily. Maybe I'm pessamistic, but I just can't imagine what they're going to come out with that can measure up to these three things.

Let's wait and see, shall we.

Cody Dawg · Apr 18, 2006, 09:46 AM

Yeah, you're right.

Guess I should get excited about something that we can only speculate about.

analogika · Apr 18, 2006, 09:51 AM

True that.

However, as mentioned, Apple's track record over the past few releases is pretty stellar.

davesimondotcom · Apr 18, 2006, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

However, as mentioned, Apple's track record over the past few releases is pretty stellar.

Simply their record of regular upgrades that aren't (overly) delayed, overpromised and underdelivered since OS X came out is amazing.

How many Windows releases have occurred since 10.0 (Cheetah)?

Apple has released Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Panther. All major upgrades.

Microsoft has released: Windows XP and a few updates and confusing names such as Windows XP Media Center Edition 2003.

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 10:07 AM

I have a feeling that most of 10.5 will be about interface changes to make it look more advanced than Vista which in SOME ways looks more advanced.

For one I hope every last trace of the Finder is trashed and they started from scratch to totally re-define the desktop metaphor.

production_coordinator · Apr 18, 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I have a feeling that most of 10.5 will be about interface changes to make it look more advanced than Vista which in SOME ways looks more advanced.

For one I hope every last trace of the Finder is trashed and they started from scratch to totally re-define the desktop metaphor.

While I can't wait to get Finder working properly (it's sluggish and quirky IMHO), I think we will be pleasantly surprised. 10.4 was the first version where Apple had pretty much ironed out the foundation of the OS.

I really hope they clean up the GUI (pick SOMETHING and go with it), fix the finder, and enhance all of the core applications.

Oh, and get rid of that darn debug code!

production_coordinator · Apr 18, 2006, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yeah, you're right.

Guess I should get excited about something that we can only speculate about.

I get excited about Christmas... and I can only speculate about what I'm going to get.

IceEnclosure · Apr 18, 2006, 10:20 AM

Every day, spotlight finds less and less on my computer. Even if I have a folder open, and in that folder is a file called holy_cow.jpg (I'm lookin' at the thing!!!), I can search for "cow" or "holy_cow" and not find it. Absolutely retarded.

Leopard, yay.

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

While I can't wait to get Finder working properly (it's sluggish and quirky IMHO), I think we will be pleasantly surprised. 10.4 was the first version where Apple had pretty much ironed out the foundation of the OS.

I really hope they clean up the GUI (pick SOMETHING and go with it), fix the finder, and enhance all of the core applications.

Oh, and get rid of that darn debug code!

Nothing about the finder works for me. I think the whole idea is totally dated. The way you can have windows with the toolbar at the top or without always confuses new users. Especially since the window even changes colour.

Personally I think they should get rid of the entire idea of separate windows and come up with a much better file browsing solution.

meelk · Apr 18, 2006, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Personally I think they should get rid of the entire idea of separate windows and come up with a much better file browsing solution.

yeah, its called windows explorer

Cody Dawg · Apr 18, 2006, 10:33 AM

Well, I bet Leopard introduces built-in dual-booting to Windows or OS X and then guess what?

Why bother having a Mac if you're going to run Windows?

Might as well go buy an IBM Thinkpad or something, you know?

Before long you'll be putting Mac OS on a Thinkpad and that's probably what Apple is working on in their new OS...developing a way to prevent Mac OS being put on a regular Intel machine.

It's all the same now...

Mac OS is now just another Microsoft cash cow.

AppleOptionFour · Apr 18, 2006, 10:36 AM

Is there a cool Leopard wallpaper out yet?

Dakar · Apr 18, 2006, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Well, I bet Leopard introduces built-in dual-booting to Windows or OS X and then guess what?

Why bother having a Mac if you're going to run Windows?

Might as well go buy an IBM Thinkpad or something, you know?

Before long you'll be putting Mac OS on a Thinkpad and that's probably what Apple is working on in their new OS...developing a way to prevent Mac OS being put on a regular Intel machine.

It's all the same now...

Mac OS is now just another Microsoft cash cow.

Because once you have Windows on a Mac then you must use it ALL the time.

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 10:45 AM

I also think applications such as the finder should run more full screen. 10.5 could also make MUCH better use of the dock and get a Vista type tray on the side.

analogika · Apr 18, 2006, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Well, I bet Leopard introduces built-in dual-booting to Windows or OS X and then guess what?

Why bother having a Mac if you're going to run Windows?

Might as well go buy an IBM Thinkpad or something, you know?

Before long you'll be putting Mac OS on a Thinkpad and that's probably what Apple is working on in their new OS...developing a way to prevent Mac OS being put on a regular Intel machine.

It's all the same now...

Mac OS is now just another Microsoft cash cow.

Have you considered reading at least a handful of the thousands of posts made on that subject over the past few weeks since Boot Camp was released?

In a nutshell:

a) A huge number of people MUST HAVE a Windows-bootable machine, because their livelihood depends on it. ALL of those people would have had to have a second machine if they wanted to use a Mac, meaning that 9 times out of 10, they didn't buy a Mac.

b) Macintosh computers will not come with Windows pre-installed.

c) Apple is as much or as little a Microsoft cash cow as it was before. The only difference is that buying a Mac is now suddenly a real option for MANY more people than before.

d) You can already hack Mac OS X to run on a generic Intel box - you have been able to for over half a year now. It's a hack, though, and Apple will never make it an option nor support it.

analogika · Apr 18, 2006, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I also think applications such as the finder should run more full screen.

The biggest usability advantage Mac OS X has is that windows don't default to full-screen, keeping a layered look making drag-and-drop the fundamental inter-application interface mechanism.

production_coordinator · Apr 18, 2006, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I also think applications such as the finder should run more full screen. 10.5 could also make MUCH better use of the dock and get a Vista type tray on the side.

We have the doc at the bottom, the menu at the top and dashboard. If you can't use those three, you are doing something wrong.

Dakar · Apr 18, 2006, 10:57 AM

Dark Helmet is a OS X hater!

PaperNotes · Apr 18, 2006, 11:02 AM

I reckon the Dock will finally have something new.

davesimondotcom · Apr 18, 2006, 11:04 AM

I'm all for a Finder re-do. Making it easier to use, but more powerful.

Integration of Spotlight would be nice, but in a way I still miss the old BeOS filesystem as database.

If I wanted an icon that always showed my unread emails on the desktop, I could have that, as a saved search.

If I wanted a folder with all of the files in a project, even if they lived elsewhere on the computer, I could mark them all and have a saved search for that marking.

This was 10 years ago. And we're just now getting Smart Folders, Smart Playlists, etc.

Why aren't we having tags ala Flickr/Delicious/Digg, etc. added to the finder. Build a tagging ability into the finder. Make it easy to add tags to a file, then allow us to search by tags, us tag clouds, etc.

I watch the way my wife uses her mini - and I look at her desktop. I wonder what it is that makes it so that she can't understand how to keep it organized. But she keeps so many things on the desktop because that makes it easier for her to find.

She simply doesn't like filing things away. Once it's out of view, she doesn't feel comfortable finding it again. I've set up many folders and such for her, aliases, etc. to help her organize. I've even put folders in the dock. She still doesn't use them.

PaperNotes · Apr 18, 2006, 11:06 AM

I would like some sort of auto cut file command.

When I drag the pics from the desktop in to iPhoto they should cut instead of copy into the library.

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

The biggest usability advantage Mac OS X has is that windows don't default to full-screen, keeping a layered look making drag-and-drop the fundamental inter-application interface mechanism.

Send Apple a memo cuz just about every pro app of theirs is meant to be in full screen. Heck even iMovie is.

analogika · Apr 18, 2006, 11:26 AM

Apps use as much of the screen as they need to.

I have yet to see a compelling reason for a non-visual-media application to hog the entire screen.

besson3c · Apr 18, 2006, 11:31 AM

I bet that we'll either see Xen support (the slickest OS virtualization technology I know of that, AFAIK, would also provide the guest OS with direct access to the hardware without having to emulate a base set of hardware), or a WINE implementation. Dual booting is just the first step here.

With a robust solution like this, Apple could also provide support to run virtualized copies of Linux and other operating systems. What a great marketing hook: "run literally any application in existence within OS X"

lpkmckenna · Apr 18, 2006, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

I'm all for a Finder re-do.

This better be the biggest part of Leopard.

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

If I wanted an icon that always showed my unread emails on the desktop, I could have that, as a saved search.

The Dock does this, but the badge is so small it's useless.

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Why aren't we having tags ala Flickr/Delicious/Digg, etc. added to the finder. Build a tagging ability into the finder. Make it easy to add tags to a file, then allow us to search by tags, us tag clouds, etc.

Spotlight Comments anyone?

Cody Dawg · Apr 18, 2006, 11:40 AM

analogika

You can already hack Mac OS X to run on a generic Intel box - you have been able to for over half a year now. It's a hack, though, and Apple will never make it an option nor support it.

Famous last words.

"Apple will NEVER have an Intel chip, never."

Remember THAT?

lpkmckenna · Apr 18, 2006, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by PaperNotes

I reckon the Dock will finally have something new.

I can only hope. The Dock and the Finder are little better than abandon-ware right now. (Still no drag'n'drop onto Docked folders? Dock still doesn't recognize Smart Folders?)

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

Apps use as much of the screen as they need to.

I have yet to see a compelling reason for a non-visual-media application to hog the entire screen.

Should Mail or itunes use the whole screen? Probably not.

Just about every other app including the Finder? Yes please.

If not they should at least slap a tray on the side of these giant widescreen displays to make better use of the space.

Using Apples 30" LCD is ridiculous for anything other than Aperture and Final Cut.

Keep in mind Apple did play with this idea before. In the 7.5.x days you could set it so when you had an app in the foreground it would automatically hide background apps. Also in OSX DP3 or 4 they had that purple button so only one window would stay in the foreground.

i am not so much for making every app full screen but I hate the way every app overlaps the other. In the odd time that I want to use drag and drop I should be able to manually say show all.

Watch a new user use a Mac and running any app. Tell them to switch to the desktop and they will click on the desktop leaving all other windows on top of it so they can't see the file they want. What do they do next... hit the yellow button to minimize every window that is in the way. It is damn sad to watch and I even see advanced users doing the same thing. How can you expect someone to figure out the "Hide all" command hidden away?

analogika · 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Famous last words.

"Apple will NEVER have an Intel chip, never."

Remember THAT?

Actually: No, I don't remember ever having said that, nor words to that effect.

I DO, however, remember that the last time Apple tried changing its business model from a hardware-profit company to one that primarily wanted to expand its desktop marketshare by letting its OS run on other manufacturers' computers, it almost killed Apple.

I ALSO remember that NeXT's dropping hardware and going into software-only business didn't do the company all that well.

(Edit: Apple be "company", not "country". d'oh.

analogika · Apr 18, 2006, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Watch a new user use a Mac and running any app. Tell them to switch to the desktop and they will click on the desktop leaving all other windows on top of it so they can't see the file they want. What do they do next... hit the yellow button to minimize every window that is in the way. It is damn sad to watch and I even see advanced users doing the same thing. How can you expect someone to figure out the "Hide all" command hidden away?

a) That happens until someone takes the three seconds to show them Exposé. You should try it sometime.

b) "New users" are a terrible example, because 99% of them aren't "new" users - they're Windows users.

davesimondotcom · Apr 18, 2006, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

The Dock does this, but the badge is so small it's useless.

No, it doesn't. It tells me I have unread messages. But because of the live-updating database filesystem in the BeOS, this was a live-updating list of unread mails.

This is just an example. Think of it as smart folders on steroids. It rocked.

Another example:

You are putting together an ad for a car dealership. Of course, that is going to take more than one file in the process. Maybe a group of car photos, the logo, etc.

In the BeOS, files could live in more than one place - in a much more powerful way than an alias - so the photos could be in the "photos" folder, but also be in the "january ad" folder. The logo could be in the "identity" folder and in the "january ad" folder.

It's hard to explain, but if you used it, you'd realize it's power.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Spotlight Comments anyone?

Sure, we can use Spotlight Comments now, but it's an awkward way to do tagging. Having to bring up the Get Info panel, then add your stuff is not slick. It should be slick, easy, and quick.

The reason tags work so well on a place like Flickr is because they are beyond easy to create, change, add, etc. You don't have to go out of your way to do it.

besson3c · Apr 18, 2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Famous last words.

"Apple will NEVER have an Intel chip, never."

Remember THAT?

Actually I don't, and I'm not trying to sound argumentative here. Was this officially stated? Do you remember who and when/what context?

lpkmckenna · Apr 18, 2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Famous last words.

Several Asinine and/or Risky Ideas

"Selling hardware is their business. That’s where their revenue comes from, that’s where their profits come from, and revenue and profit is what defines a business. Everything else they do is in support of this core business. Apple is famous for its software — both the Mac OS and their own Mac applications — but they make way less money selling Mac software than they do selling Mac hardware. And the iTunes Music Store is just the equivalent of “software” for iPods." - John Gruber

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

Actually: No, I don't remember ever having said that, nor words to that effect.

I DO, however, remember that the last time Apple tried changing its business model from a hardware-profit country to one that primarily wanted to expand its desktop marketshare by letting its OS run on other manufacturers' computers, it almost killed Apple.

I ALSO remember that NeXT's dropping hardware and going into software-only business didn't do the company all that well.

The reason Apple got screwed with the clones is because of stupid licensing policies it had with manufacturers. Long story short Apple did all the R&D and got $20-$80 for each clone sold. All the clones had to do was speed bump whatever they got from Apple and throw in a bigger hard drive and RAM and they sold like hotcakes.

In the end Apples marketshare didn't expand the clones just took away from Apples business.

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

a) That happens until someone takes the three seconds to show them Exposé. You should try it sometime.

b) "New users" are a terrible example, because 99% of them aren't "new" users - they're Windows users.

Expose is nice but I don't personally have time to go to every new mac user and tell them to try hitting the otherwise useless F1 - F3 buttons.

I also said it isn't just "New Users" but people who have used a computer for years but aren't geeky enough to look for solutions like this. Photographers are a good example.

besson3c · Apr 18, 2006, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

The reason Apple got screwed with the clones is because of stupid licensing policies it had with manufacturers. Long story short Apple did all the R&D and got $20-$80 for each clone sold. All the clones had to do was speed bump whatever they got from Apple and throw in a bigger hard drive and RAM and they sold like hotcakes.

In the end Apples marketshare didn't expand the clones just took away from Apples business.

I have this wild theory that you are a clone of Leia's Right Bum, C3PO's Disgruntled Friend, and Chewbacca's Ass, or whatever that other person is.

analogika · Apr 18, 2006, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

The reason Apple got screwed with the clones is because of stupid licensing policies it had with manufacturers. Long story short Apple did all the R&D and got $20-$80 for each clone sold. All the clones had to do was speed bump whatever they got from Apple and throw in a bigger hard drive and RAM and they sold like hotcakes.

In the end Apples marketshare didn't expand the clones just took away from Apples business.

You make it sound like you're arguing with me, though we're in agreement?

Or are you actually saying that a different licensing deal would have expanded the marketshare, rather than merely resulting in a bunch of clone makers jumping ship because they wouldn't be able to compete?

analogika · Apr 18, 2006, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Expose is nice but I don't personally have time to go to every new mac user and tell them to try hitting the otherwise useless F1 - F3 buttons.

I also said it isn't just "New Users" but people who have used a computer for years but aren't geeky enough to look for solutions like this. Photographers are a good example.

The poor souls.

How do you propose to help them - in a way that doesn't break a fundamental aspect of the workflow for millions of other users, the way single-window-full-screen-default mode would?

besson3c · Apr 18, 2006, 12:05 PM

I'm not expecting much in Leopard. I think there aren't too many innovative and interesting things left to be done in an OS X operating system outside of just supporting new technologies and updating core pieces.

I suppose there is some room to grow with the whole Spotlight concept, but they will have a hard time selling a new and improved Spotlight unless it accompanies all sorts of other useful features (or they lower the price of the OS).

What I'd really like to see is for Apple to do what Redhat has done with their business model, and open up the rest of OS X and roll it into Darwin. I think the notion of constant paid annual updates is going to be hard to continue to pull off.

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I have this wild theory that you are a clone of Leia's Right Bum, C3PO's Disgruntled Friend, and Chewbacca's Ass, or whatever that other person is.

Chewbacca is a bite off but yes the rest is me, you can tell because my sig links to my site.

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

The poor souls.

How do you propose to help them - in a way that doesn't break a fundamental aspect of the workflow for millions of other users, the way single-window-full-screen-default mode would?

Exactly like I said apple once did it. When you switch apps it hides the other apps, if you want to bring them forward you just hit SHOW ALL. The same as today except backwards.

besson3c · Apr 18, 2006, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Chewbacca is a bite off but yes the rest is me, you can tell because my sig links to my site.

I know, I was trying to be funny in mocking/teasing you... A Zimphire I'm not, in terms of mockery...

What did Chewbacca bite? You just can't mess with that guy, he'll bite you!

analogika · Apr 18, 2006, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Exactly like I said apple once did it. When you switch apps it hides the other apps, if you want to bring them forward you just hit SHOW ALL. The same as today except backwards.

um:

Originally Posted by myself

in a way that doesn't break a fundamental aspect of the workflow for millions of other users, the way single-window-full-screen-default mode would?

I seem to remember there having been a good reason why it was thrown out after DP4.

Dark Helmet · Apr 18, 2006, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

You make it sound like you're arguing with me, though we're in agreement?

Or are you actually saying that a different licensing deal would have expanded the marketshare, rather than merely resulting in a bunch of clone makers jumping ship because they wouldn't be able to compete?

Personally I hated the clones. They were loud and ugly, exactly what a Mac shouldn't be. Apple also had to release software updates JUST for the clones. Remember 7.5.2?

Anywho, I think with a better licensing model apple COULD have made money off the clones but still not expanded marketshare.