[brapper]

Boeing is developing the 797. With a blended wing design, it boast higher speed, better efficiency, and more passengers than the A380.

Discuss.

[Dakar]

I'll believe it when I see it.

[funkboy]

How does this compare to the 777?

[Dark Helmet]

Pretty cool, this design has been showing up for years.

[brassplayersrock²]

the more parts they need to use, the more likely something is going to break

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock

the more parts they need to use, the more likely something is going to break

Thanks dad. You going to kick the tires also?

[Mastrap]

Isn't that the design that Boing abandoned several years back? Mainly due to technical difficulties keeping such a plane pressurized?

[driven]

I'll echo Dakar. "I'll believe it when I see it."

Also: What's after the 797? 7107?

[Mastrap]

Here we go: http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lounge/239538/give-airbus-380-wink-jpeg-orgy/
This was discussed months ago. Looks like the 797 has been abandoned by Boing already.

Not so much NewTechSpy as OldTechSpy.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by driven

I'll echo Dakar. "I'll believe it when I see it."

Also: What's after the 797? 7107?

7X7, duh.

Then the 7X7.1 (though I'd wait for at least the 7X7.1.7 before flying).

[Todd Madson]

The 20X6 (or 1936).

[maxx9photo]

Magnifico if it's true!

[KeyLimePi]

Boeing's taking back its lead, but not so much because of technology, just good strategy. The A380 is a technical marvel but is not selling as well as hoped. Airbus invested so much into the A380, now its smaller AC are losing ground. The company hoped to pick up some lost ground with the A350...what it hoped would be an updated A340...but the airlines have said they want a totally new A350, so Boeing's 7E7 and 747-A will have big headstart.

[mduell]

Completely bogus. The pictures in the linked-to article are of one of Boeing's concept planes from the mid-90s (note the paint scheme).
Boeing has decided to go forward with 747-8 for the VLA market, and already has about 30 orders.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Boeing's taking back its lead, but not so much because of technology, just good strategy. The A380 is a technical marvel but is not selling as well as hoped. Airbus invested so much into the A380, now its smaller AC are losing ground. The company hoped to pick up some lost ground with the A350...what it hoped would be an updated A340...but the airlines have said they want a totally new A350, so Boeing's 7E7 and 747-A will have big headstart.

Considering the A380 is such a leap forward and the fact that they havent even started shipping the aircrafts to airlines yet, i think they seem to have quite a lot of support from Airliners. They also have a working prototype as opposed to Boeing's concepts. Therefore i suspect once the A380s start shipping....youll see a hell of a lot of orders being placed.

Boeing might be going for the smaller jets, seeing as how thats what the market in N.America needs(it wouldnt make sence to fly an A380 across a state) (the A320 would suffice for that market imo). but the rest of the world commuting to and from so many different transcontinental hubs, the airlines carrying people to and from the major hubs (Los Angeles, New York, Amsterdam, London, Dubai, Bombay, Singapore, Manila, Perth, Moscow, Sydney, Tokyo, etc) would stand to benefit a lot...as would the customers (lower costs...eventually).

The tyres have hit the tarmac for the A380, the Boeing model above is still ..... on the drawing board.

In my opinion, looking at everything on offer in the 21st century so far...the A380 is probably the most significant.

Cheers

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Boeing's taking back its lead, but not so much because of technology, just good strategy. The A380 is a technical marvel but is not selling as well as hoped. Airbus invested so much into the A380, now its smaller AC are losing ground.

For the last few years Airbus (five? six? I don't remember) has outsold Beoing, so if any, they are not losing ground.

Also Boeing's plan to develop a 600+ person airplane is akin to admitting that Airbus was right all along developing the A380 and the exact opposite they have been advertising with the 787. I'm not sure how this is good strategy on Boeing's part.

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

The company hoped to pick up some lost ground with the A350...what it hoped would be an updated A340...but the airlines have said they want a totally new A350, so Boeing's 7E7 and 747-A will have big headstart.

The 747-A (don't you mean the 747-8?) doesn't sell well (they have something like 10 definite orders and doesn't even ship yet. I'm not aware that they have working prototypes either. The 787 hasn't touched the sky either, so I'm not sure why you start celebrating because Boeing has revived old ideas of a blended wing plane (the project has been canned and revived every few years).

[badidea]

The blended wing plane concept does not really work - Airbus knows this and Boeing knows this as well!

just 2 of the many problems you would have to deal with:

- No windows for most of the passengers
- passengers sitting way out of the middle axis (as in the wing) would get terribly sick when the plane turns


The 787 is a good airplane and is selling very well - I'm pretty sure that in the next few years Boeing has good chances to be #1 again!

[KeyLimePi]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

For the last few years Airbus (five? six? I don't remember) has outsold Beoing, so if any, they are not losing ground.

Airbus is still slightly ahead of Boeing on dollars, but this year -- for the first time in five years -- Boeing is beating Airbus on orders, thanks I think to the 777 which competes with the A340. That is why Airbus is scrambling on the A350.

No one doubts the technical brilliance of the huge A380, but right now there are what, four airports in the world that can support it?

Oh and you're correct. I should have said 747-8. It was called the 747-A ("Advanced") for quite a while until Boeing finally gave it the greenlight. I don't think it will be too much longer before we see a launch customer named. Probably for the cargo configuration.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Airbus is still slightly ahead of Boeing on dollars, but this year -- for the first time in five years -- Boeing is beating Airbus on orders, thanks I think to the 777 which competes with the A340. That is why Airbus is scrambling on the A350.

According to wikipedia Airbus has outsold Boeing in 2005 again. We don't know for 2006, obviously, but I wonder where you get your facts from, though.

Fortunately for Boeing and Airbus, the 787 sells well, although it does cannibalize some sales, because it competes with various other models Boeing offers (among others with the 757, 767 and 777). Competition is good and Boeing's bet on the 787 was literally a huge bet. If the Dreamliner project were a failure, I think this would have been a major blow to Boeing. Maybe one that would have killed the company. Again, competition is good. Also, keep in mind that some of the technological nuggets will be shared by the 787 and the A350 (the engines, in particular, will be very similar to each other).

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

No one doubts the technical brilliance of the huge A380, but right now there are what, four airports in the world that can support it?

If you want to discuss the A380 in more detail, take a look at this thread. 159 A380 have been ordered with at least 70 more as options. Do you think airliners are stupid and would order a plane that could only be used to connect four airports?

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Oh and you're correct. I should have said 747-8. It was called the 747-A ("Advanced") for quite a while until Boeing finally gave it the greenlight. I don't think it will be too much longer before we see a launch customer named. Probably for the cargo configuration.

Apparently you are not up to date. Cargolux is the launch customer and the only other airline who ordered the 747-8 is Nippon Cargo Airlines. The two have a total of 18 orders for the freight version and options for 16 more (Boeing has yet to sell a 747-8I). Airbus has orders for 27 freighters and options for another 20. So Airbus sells 50 % more freighters and roughly eight times as many A380 if you include the passenger version. AFAIK the prospects of selling the passenger version of the 747-8 are not terribly well.

[driven]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Boeing's taking back its lead, but not so much because of technology, just good strategy. The A380 is a technical marvel but is not selling as well as hoped. Airbus invested so much into the A380, now its smaller AC are losing ground. The company hoped to pick up some lost ground with the A350...what it hoped would be an updated A340...but the airlines have said they want a totally new A350, so Boeing's 7E7 and 747-A will have big headstart.

The airlines don't know what they want. They demand a brand new plane from Airbus for the A350, but are willing to accept a warmed over 30 year old airplane (747-8) for the VLA orders? Seems Airbus can't win with those rules.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by driven

The airlines don't know what they want. They demand a brand new plane from Airbus for the A350, but are willing to accept a warmed over 30 year old airplane (747-8) for the VLA orders? Seems Airbus can't win with those rules.

Ummm... no.

That "30 year old airplane" was launched on November 14, 2005. Sure it uses a similar engine and cockpit configuration as the 787... but it is nowhere near 30 years old. Boeing just doesn't sit around recreating the exact same thing for decades. Also, if you call that airplane 30 years old, that MacBook Pro you just purchased is 60+ years old (year Intel was founded).

[driven]

The 747 made it's first flight in 1970.

My point being: Why is it not ok by some airlines for Airbus to update the A340 into an A350, requiring an "entirely new design", but it's ok for Boeing to do exactly the same thing with the 747? (Even keeping the same base numerical designation much less).

Personally I like the reliability of age-old proven designs. All the bugs are worked out.

And ... I don' t have a Macbook pro. (Not yet anyway)

[OreoCookie]

The 747-8 is an updated design, it will use many enhancements you can find in the 787, but it is still based on the 747 – and that design is 30 years old. Again, nothing wrong with that: Boeing has done the same thing once with the 737NG (maiden flight of the 737 was 1967) and Airbus plans on updating the A340 (18 year-old design) using technology developed for the A380.

[Cody Dawg]

Wow. Cool.

I'd like to fly on it.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by brapper

Boeing is developing the 797. With a blended wing design, it boast higher speed, better efficiency, and more passengers than the A380.

Discuss.

FUD. Nothing to discuss.

-t

[christ]

Originally Posted by brapper

Boeing is developing the 797. With a blended wing design, it boast higher speed, better efficiency, and more passengers than the A380.

Discuss.

It doesn't boast anything, it is vapourware.

Come back when there is a realistic prospect of it flying - anyone can draw a picture and make bold claims. (qv "Microsoft Vista")

[brapper]

Originally Posted by christ

It doesn't boast anything, it is vapourware.

Come back when there is a realistic prospect of it flying - anyone can draw a picture and make bold claims. (qv "Microsoft Vista")

I could sneak up behind you and yell "BOO!" and you'd crap your pants.
Nothing substantive, but the apparent threat sure would scare you.

To ignore the possibility that Boeing might develope this aircraft would be bad business for Airbus.

Nothing like a good fright now and again to keep you at the top of your game.

[KeyLimePi]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

According to wikipedia Airbus has outsold Boeing in 2005 again. We don't know for 2006, obviously, but I wonder where you get your facts from, though.

That Wikipedia entry may be a little dated. According to this recent report from Bloomberg:" Last year, Boeing took orders for 155 of the 777s, while Airbus had 15 orders for A340s. Rising fuel prices have made the four-engine A340 difficult to market, unlike the two-engine configuration on the 777. "

Yes, that's only one platform, but according to this article from a recent Financial Times piece: "Last year Boeing won 55 per cent of new commercial aircraft orders by value, reversing the trend of recent years."

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Do you think airliners are stupid and would order a plane that could only be used to connect four airports?

Well I was being a little facious, but you have to admit there are fewer than two-dozen airports in the world that can handle a plane the size of the A380. The rest --including Heathrow -- are going to spend hundreds of millions to be able to accomdate it.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Apparently you are not up to date. Cargolux is the launch customer and the only other airline who ordered the 747-8 is Nippon Cargo Airlines. The two have a total of 18 orders for the freight version and options for 16 more (Boeing has yet to sell a 747-8I). Airbus has orders for 27 freighters and options for another 20. So Airbus sells 50 % more freighters and roughly eight times as many A380 if you include the passenger version. AFAIK the prospects of selling the passenger version of the 747-8 are not terribly well.

You're right. I didn't realize that there was a launch customer for the 747-8, but I assumed it would be the freight config. I agree the passenger version will be a tougher sell, but there is certainly going to be a market for it.

[voodoo]

Seriously though, it will be more than a decade before anyone will seriously conteplate considering *maybe* possibly thinking about a passenger airliner larger than the A380. There just isn't any market for it.

That "article" was dumb. Examples:

The new 797 is in direct response to the Airbus A380
...where is the announcement from Boing?...

Boeing decide to kill its 747X stretched super jumbo in 2003 after little interest was shown by airline companies
...have they now? what is the B747-8?...

The exact date for introduction is unclear
...well, surely the B797 announcement/launch press release from Boeing gave some timeframe? oh wait, there is no press-release...

but the best is last:

”This is a great advancement in commercial aviation and a huge win for boeing"
...where the heck does this quote come from? probably the 16 year old who wrote this stunning article...


V

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

That Wikipedia entry may be a little dated. According to this recent report from Bloomberg:" Last year, Boeing took orders for 155 of the 777s, while Airbus had 15 orders for A340s. Rising fuel prices have made the four-engine A340 difficult to market, unlike the two-engine configuration on the 777. "

You're right about the 777, but I've never disputed that.

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Yes, that's only one platform, but according to this article from a recent Financial Times piece: "Last year Boeing won 55 per cent of new commercial aircraft orders by value, reversing the trend of recent years."

Well, I trust you with the source (I cannot read the rest without subscribing to the FT online service). However, wikipedia was listing net orders and not total value of the orders. Hence the discrepancy.

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Well I was being a little facious, but you have to admit there are fewer than two-dozen airports in the world that can handle a plane the size of the A380. The rest --including Heathrow -- are going to spend hundreds of millions to be able to accomdate it.

Well, that's what it is designed for, hubs. Munich's new airport for instance can accomodate four A380-sized aircraft right now. I'm sure they have more space available if necessary. Which is opposite to Boeing's strategy. And the other important point is that the big airports will spend the money for it.

If Boeing should really push forward the 797, then it's a 180 on their behalf (although I'm far from convinced they will actually build this plane). From the drawings, it looks as if it is about the same size as the A380.

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

You're right. I didn't realize that there was a launch customer for the 747-8, but I assumed it would be the freight config. I agree the passenger version will be a tougher sell, but there is certainly going to be a market for it.

I'm not really sure who will buy the passenger version, It is going to be a tough sell. Even the freighter is not selling well compared to alternatives.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by voodoo

...where the heck does this quote come from? probably the 16 year old who wrote this stunning article...

Or perhaps the article is simply sixteen years old?

[mduell]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Apparently you are not up to date. Cargolux is the launch customer and the only other airline who ordered the 747-8 is Nippon Cargo Airlines. The two have a total of 18 orders for the freight version and options for 16 more (Boeing has yet to sell a 747-8I). Airbus has orders for 27 freighters and options for another 20. So Airbus sells 50 % more freighters and roughly eight times as many A380 if you include the passenger version. AFAIK the prospects of selling the passenger version of the 747-8 are not terribly well.

Yes, you can paint a pretty slanted picture of the market if you neglect any sense of time. The A380 has EIS in less than a year and (well, unless the schedule slips again) has been offered for 5 years; 747-8 is still about 3 years from EIS and has been offered for less than a year.
I don't think Boeing will have trouble picking a few 747-8I customers... QF, BA, AF, LH, NH, JL, UA, and CX top my list for most likely to buy.

Originally Posted by driven

The airlines don't know what they want. They demand a brand new plane from Airbus for the A350, but are willing to accept a warmed over 30 year old airplane (747-8) for the VLA orders? Seems Airbus can't win with those rules.

The airlines and lessors know exactly what they want. Chew, U-H, and the rest aren't demanding a new airplane from Airbus, they're demanding a new cross-section; the rest of the A350 is fine with them.

[Velocity211]

That must use a lot of gas. Good luck trying to get an affordable ticket.

[driven]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Seriously though, it will be more than a decade before anyone will seriously conteplate considering *maybe* possibly thinking about a passenger airliner larger than the A380. There just isn't any market for it.




V

Northwest airlines alone launches 2 Boeing 747's out of Detroit about 30 minutes apart and 2 more out of Minneapolis also 30 minutes apart all headed to Tokyo Narita. All 4 planes are nearly full to capacity. That's 4 full 747's within about an hour or two all headed to the same place, every day. ... and that's just one airline.

I would think an Airbus 380 would help here. Even if it could reduce that flight schedule by 1 plane per day (each way).

Maybe I'm wrong but it would seem that there is a market for these types of runs. Is this limited to a dozen or so planes? Maybe .... I don't know.

[greenamp]

The reason Boeing continues to stick with the 747 tag is pure marketing. To the general public, "747" is synonymous with jetliner. It's nothing more than strong branding.

[driven]

Originally Posted by greenamp

The reason Boeing continues to stick with the 747 tag is pure marketing. To the general public, "747" is synonymous with jetliner. It's nothing more than strong branding.

According to this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/747-8

the changes to the 747-8 are evolutionary and relatively modest over the 747-4. The entire plane is only about 12 feet longer than the 747-4. Generally it's the same aircraft.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by driven

Northwest airlines alone launches 2 Boeing 747's out of Detroit about 30 minutes apart and 2 more out of Minneapolis also 30 minutes apart all headed to Tokyo Narita. All 4 planes are nearly full to capacity. That's 4 full 747's within about an hour or two all headed to the same place, every day. ... and that's just one airline.

I would think an Airbus 380 would help here. Even if it could reduce that flight schedule by 1 plane per day (each way).

Maybe I'm wrong but it would seem that there is a market for these types of runs. Is this limited to a dozen or so planes? Maybe .... I don't know.

A big problem is that there are only so many routes like that, where there is a very limited time schedule where flights make sense (i.e. aren't departing or arriving at 3am); some Europe-Asia flights have the same situation with multiple jumbos departing in a short timespan.
But does it make sense for NWA to acquire a fleet of 5 aircraft (which have zero commonality with their other types) for two routes?
Also, if the ICAO doesn't revise the wake seperation standards, it won't help with the slot restrictions at RJAA (3 A380 would be the same spacing as 4 B747).

[voodoo]

For an airline the size of NW, which already has Airbus planes in their fleet, commonality is not an issue, but that is another story because there is no commonality between the B747 and any other Boeing anyway

Airlines the size of NW go for the airplane model that suits them the best and they can afford. Simple as that.

Commonality is found between B757/B767, A318 to A321, A330/A340 and B737 classic to NG. Planes with no commonality what-so-ever are planes like the A380, A300, B777, B747 and the upcoming A350 and B787.

V

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by brapper

To ignore the possibility that Boeing might develope this aircraft would be bad business for Airbus.

You fell for an article that fell for an unsubstantiated rumour that's over ten years old. Time to say 'ooops' and walk away from it.

There is no chance at all that Boing will produce this design, ever. It's impossible to keep pressurized and, as badidea, pointed out, passengers sitting in the wings would be treated to the rollercoaster ride to end all rollercoaster rides.

[TETENAL]

http://www.dlr.de/as/en/desktopdefau.../379_read-636/

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by mduell

Yes, you can paint a pretty slanted picture of the market if you neglect any sense of time. The A380 has EIS in less than a year and (well, unless the schedule slips again) has been offered for 5 years; 747-8 is still about 3 years from EIS and has been offered for less than a year.
I don't think Boeing will have trouble picking a few 747-8I customers... QF, BA, AF, LH, NH, JL, UA, and CX top my list for most likely to buy.

No, not really. Boeing was trying to get airlines interested in what was called the 747-X, a stretched 747, but the project was canned eventually. So the timeline isn't as skewed as you make it appear to be.

I have no doubt the 747-8 will sell. I do doubt the 747-8 will sell well, the passenger version in particular. For two very simple reasons: if an airline wants a large plane, they have no choice but to take the A380. For other long-range flights, there are smaller alternatives by both manufacturers, the 777 in particular (to stick with Boeing for now). The second reason is strategic: Boeing places its bets on smaller aircraft (the 787) and that there will be an increase in direct flights. The 747-8 doesn't fit into that picture.

[KeyLimePi]

Boeing scrapped several other 747 redesigns in recent years besides the X. And although I agree the A380 will outsell the 747-8 passenger, it can still be a profitable venture for Boeing. Boeing's cost to make the -8 will be a fraction of the cost Airbus is spending to develop and give birth the A380. So not only will its profit margin be higher, but it will force Airbus' hand when it comes to pricing. I think those huge incentives they gave to their launch customers may come back to bite them.

Still, I think you're right on about Boeing's strategy for direct flights. Right now that seems to be a smart bet, at least in the U.S. But once the Chinese starts spending some of that money they're suddenly earning, the whole game could change.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

No, not really. Boeing was trying to get airlines interested in what was called the 747-X, a stretched 747, but the project was canned eventually. So the timeline isn't as skewed as you make it appear to be.

I have no doubt the 747-8 will sell. I do doubt the 747-8 will sell well, the passenger version in particular. For two very simple reasons: if an airline wants a large plane, they have no choice but to take the A380. For other long-range flights, there are smaller alternatives by both manufacturers, the 777 in particular (to stick with Boeing for now). The second reason is strategic: Boeing places its bets on smaller aircraft (the 787) and that there will be an increase in direct flights. The 747-8 doesn't fit into that picture.

None of the earlier post-744 ideas (747-500, 747-600, 747-X, 747 Advanced, 747QXLR, etc) were offered for sale. Between 2001 and 2005 the only other VLA option was 744.

If the airline wants something around 400-450 seats (in a normal three class config), the 747-8 is the only way to go. 77W is too small (unless you're going to pack Y in 3-4-3) and A380 is too big (the lowest seatcount I've seen is 475).

I'm excited about more P2P flying with 787/A350 and even 737RS/NSR. 787/A350 will do to the Pacific what 757/767 did to the Atlantic, and 737RS/NSR may fragment the Atlantic market further.