[Obi Wan's Ghost]

http://ipodhub.net/articles/20060424...d_content.html

Oh well Apple is going to get iPod movies on Bluray discs. So lets do the maths.

In the future millions of millions of iPod video userswill buy Bluray movies to get HD and iPod movies together for the same price. Sony is helping them that's why they are killing UMD off. and HD-DVD has lost the battle because they just don't have the big boys, the iPod videos or as much disc space.

[starman]

Wow!

[Eug Wanker]

"According to anonymous film industry insiders"

[Dark Helmet]

I don't understand why sony would help Apple gain an even bigger foothold in the music space.

[Goldfinger]

That's great news if it becomes reality.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I don't understand why sony would help Apple gain an even bigger foothold in the music space.

That's movie not music space. Remember that Jap (that old thread) from Sony came on stage with Jobs and talked about working on future HD products?

Apple has nailed the coffin shut on HD-DVD.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

That's movie not music space.

iPods are a competitor to sony. Sony vowed to fight back strong.
Doesn't matter if in this case it is only movies, people will buy more iPods.

Sony must be serious about winning the HD war to do this.

[sabrejim]

According to insiders, they've just been asking. That doesn't mean much. That doesn't mean every publisher or any are going to buy into that. Price is still going to play into this. An iPoder stil has to buy a bluray drive. Chances are any iPod videos are going to require a computer to copy to the iPod, at least in the beginning. Thats ~$800 now and users are locked to using computers for playing HD bluray content. DVD on the PC didn't catch on dramatically so this surely isn't gonna be the nail in the coffin for HD DVD. It costs too much right now.

[mduell]

The first few dozen BluRay releases (all of the announced ones) will be encoded in MPEG2; do you think the iPod version of the movie (if included) would be also MPEG2 encoded, or will the studios go out of their way and use another more efficient codec for the iPod version?

[sabrejim]

What are the current iPod videos encoded at? It'll probably be the same thing otherwise whats the point?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by kaze0

What are the current iPod videos encoded at? It'll probably be the same thing otherwise whats the point?

They are currently small and terrible. Fine for a tiny screen but not for outputting on a TV.

Apple could easily come out with "iPod HD" and offer downloads of both current and "ipod HD" formats.

[himself]

well, there's no reason why other portable video devices can't use that same "iPod-formatted" video content, so the competitors may welcome this as well if they can also take advantage of this same "scaled-down" content. The question is, are any portable video devices in a position to challenge the iPod anyway? Apple doesn't think so.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by mduell

The first few dozen BluRay releases (all of the announced ones) will be encoded in MPEG2; do you think the iPod version of the movie (if included) would be also MPEG2 encoded, or will the studios go out of their way and use another more efficient codec for the iPod version?

The iPod can't decode MPEG2 or VC-1, so movies in either of those formats will have to be reencoded for the iPod. H.264 movies will have to be further compressed down to iPod size. I'm sure apple would be providing the tools to do this, to make it as easy as possible for the production companies to offer this.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by himself

well, there's no reason why other portable video devices can't use that same "iPod-formatted" video content

Unless Apple inks an exclusive deal with blu-ray. Apple announced ages ago they are supporting Blu-ray and I can't see them offering HD as an option. Remember how long it took Apple to even support DVD+R?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

They are currently small and terrible. Fine for a tiny screen but not for outputting on a TV.

Apple could easily come out with "iPod HD" and offer downloads of both current and "ipod HD" formats.

I'd be happy with an iPod SD. ie. iPod supporting 720x480 H.264 output via the TV out.

[MacMan4000]

wont the PS3 have a blu-ray drive too? If all this is true then Blu-ray is gonna spank HD-DVD... there are approximately eleventy billion ipod users and there will be quite a few people with PS3s... so Blu-ray already has a massive market... what does HD-DVD have? nothing?

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

They are currently small and terrible. Fine for a tiny screen but not for outputting on a TV.

I'm not sure if it's related, but my roomate has a Vid iPod, and after encoding a 350MB avi file (using some program for M$, I'm not sure which) onto it, the quality is superior on a 27" TV.

I know you have faaaar more discerning tastes (with your large HD TV) but for mostly everyone it seems the current quality is fine.

I haven't tried and actual legally bought file from iTunes yet, so I dunno if they are different.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by sek929

I'm not sure if it's related, but my roomate has a Vid iPod, and after encoding a 350MB avi file (using some program for M$, I'm not sure which) onto it, the quality is superior on a 27" TV.

No no I am talking about what Apple offers as downloads. You can encode video's in high-def if you wanted to.

[sabrejim]

BluRay and HD DVD both support managed copy, so there isn't anything inherently advantageous to including iPod formatted movies on bluray. I could definately see Apple providing a slick front end to using that to put bluray on an iPod, but I can't see that hurting HD DVD that much.

[himself]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Unless Apple inks an exclusive deal with blu-ray. Apple announced ages ago they are supporting Blu-ray and I can't see them offering HD as an option. Remember how long it took Apple to even support DVD+R?

What I meant was that there is no reason why iPod-ready content on blu-ray discs can't be played on other iPod wannabe portable video players (unless Apple asks for some FairPlay-type drm to be added, which wouldn't be smart). Sony (and others) could agree to this arrangement if it they could use this same content on their portable devices too.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

No no I am talking about what Apple offers as downloads. You can encode video's in high-def if you wanted to.

Ahhh, I see grasshoppah

[sabrejim]

Originally Posted by MacMan4000

wont the PS3 have a blu-ray drive too? If all this is true then Blu-ray is gonna spank HD-DVD... there are approximately eleventy billion ipod users and there will be quite a few people with PS3s... so Blu-ray already has a massive market... what does HD-DVD have? nothing?

HD DVD has the time and price advantage. Eleventy billion iPod users still have no reason to pick bluray over hd dvd. PS3 still isn't but is definately the big advantage for bluray unless hd dvds player get to under $200 before PS3 becomes well stocked.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by himself

What I meant was that there is no reason why iPod-ready content on blu-ray discs can't be played on other iPod wannabe portable video players (unless Apple asks for some FairPlay-type drm to be added, which wouldn't be smart). Sony (and others) could agree to this arrangement if it they could use this same content on their portable devices too.

You really think Apple or Sony would distribute any type of music or Movie without some hard core DRM?

[meelk]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

http://ipodhub.net/articles/20060424...d_content.html

Oh well Apple is going to get iPod movies on Bluray discs. So lets do the maths.

In the future millions of millions of iPod video userswill buy Bluray movies to get HD and iPod movies together for the same price. Sony is helping them that's why they are killing UMD off. and HD-DVD has lost the battle because they just don't have the big boys, the iPod videos or as much disc space.

lol. the MARKET killed UMD off. Sony didnt do sh*t but watch another of their proprietary formats die a horrible death.

afaik there arent any 50gb bluray discs due to ship at launch. Apparently its a lot harder to manufacture reliable 50's than sony wants to admit.

btw: its amazing that you want to believe a format thats not out has "killed" on thats already available.

Sony is evil, you can keep their crap.

Lastly: if you think you need super quality video for a 4inch screen you are an idiot.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by meelk

lol. the MARKET killed UMD off. Sony didnt do sh*t but watch another of their proprietary formats die a horrible death.

Lastly: if you think you need super quality video for a 4inch screen you are an idiot.

Actually sony's stupid pricing is what killed UMD for movies.

Regarding the 4 inch screen and high def... it is for output onto your TV that you need the rez for so be careful with that whole idiot remark.

Apple brags that you can download movies from the iTunes store, put it on the iPod and play it on a TV. They don't mention it looks like ass.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Actually sony's stupid pricing is what killed UMD for movies.

Regarding the 4 inch screen and high def... it is for output onto your TV that you need the rez for so be careful with that whole idiot remark.

Apple brags that you can download movies from the iTunes store, put it on the iPod and play it on a TV. They don't mention it looks like ass.

itll still look like ass. the movie industry is not going to just donate huge reserves of space to apple as a damn freebie on their discs. I just dont see it happening. Till it does happen this thread is moot.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by meelk

itll still look like ass. the movie industry is not going to just donate huge reserves of space to apple as a damn freebie on their discs. I just dont see it happening. Till it does happen this thread is moot.

Most HD movies are only 8 gigs. That leaves 42 gigs on a dual layer disk for all sorts of goodies.

Even if it is a 25 gig single layer disk the movie itself will not take up anywhere near that much room.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by meelk

itll still look like ass. the movie industry is not going to just donate huge reserves of space to apple as a damn freebie on their discs. I just dont see it happening. Till it does happen this thread is moot.

While I don't think the iPod-content-on-Blu-ray thing is going to happen any time soon, space is not a significant issue. A full DVD quality 90 minute H.264 movie for the iPod would be all of 2 GB. In fact, if they made it 640x360, it could be significantly less than 2 GB.

P.S. While I said I'd be happy with a 720x480 SD iPod, in truth I'd be happy with just 480x360 H.264. That actually looks reasonable on a TV in a pinch, if there aren't too many encoding artifacts. But yeah, the current iPod's 320x240 H.264 does look like ass.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by meelk

itll still look like ass. the movie industry is not going to just donate huge reserves of space to apple as a damn freebie on their discs.

A well encoded iPod movie takes a maximum of 2GB.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

A well encoded iPod movie takes a maximum of 2GB.

What rez and what encoder? What length of movie?

[ort888]

I can't see this happening for many reasons. The iPod is a major competitor to many Sony products, including the PSP. The movie studios aren't going to want to give something away for free that they can charge you for later. Apple is going to want a piece of the pie as well.

[sabrejim]

Where did you hear that most HD movies are 8 gigs? OR are you not talking about BluRay or HD DVD? I don't feel like backing it up but I can assure you that no feature length HD DVD is 8 gigs.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by kaze0

Where did you hear that most HD movies are 8 gigs? OR are you not talking about BluRay or HD DVD? I don't feel like backing it up but I can assure you that no feature length HD DVD is 8 gigs.

Eug will be happy to answer that one.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

http://ipodhub.net/articles/20060424...d_content.html

Oh well Apple is going to get iPod movies on Bluray discs. So lets do the maths.

In the future millions of millions of iPod video userswill buy Bluray movies to get HD and iPod movies together for the same price. Sony is helping them that's why they are killing UMD off. and HD-DVD has lost the battle because they just don't have the big boys, the iPod videos or as much disc space.

Other than you being an obvious Bluray troll I don't get how this changes anything.

1) HD-DVD moves can already be moved to the iPod.
2) UMD already failed. I doubt iPod compatibility would be a big selling point for Bluray.
3) The only reason Apple is requesting this is because Bluray can't be moved to other devices, while HD-DVD can.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by meelk

itll still look like ass. the movie industry is not going to just donate huge reserves of space to apple as a damn freebie on their discs. I just dont see it happening. Till it does happen this thread is moot.

Exactly. The movie companies will want the user paying for iPod movies separately. Most of the Bluray companies are fighting loading movies on your computer. I doubt they'd take it a step further and let it move to your iPod as well.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by kaze0

Where did you hear that most HD movies are 8 gigs? OR are you not talking about BluRay or HD DVD? I don't feel like backing it up but I can assure you that no feature length HD DVD is 8 gigs.

MPEG2 HD files are quite large, and it's true that Sony's initial Blu-ray HD movies will be MPEG2.

However, Blu-ray and HD-DVD both support H.264/AVC and VC-1, which means that a 90 minute HD movie can fit onto a single DVD-9 in terms of space. The initial HD-DVDs (which are already available) are VC-1.

Even if it's a long movie at higher bitrates, 12 GB is more than enough.

For example, Apple itself recommends approximately 8000-9000 Kbps, which is actually the same bitrate as a Superbit DVD. To put it simply:

High definition H.264 takes roughly only as much disk space as standard definition DVD quality MPEG-2.

So, again, that's only about 8 GB per movie, and a single-layer Blu-ray disc is 25 GB, enough for three VC-1 or H.264 high definition movies.

[production_coordinator]

Just like Divx vx. DVD, I'm going to wait until the players are $500 and the disks are at Best Buy/Netflix before I make the plunge. Oh, and I have a HD TV... I haven't seen any reason to upgrade to HD yet... I'm not a sports person, and I'm not willing to spend thousands to see the crap we have on TV.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

Just like Divx vx. DVD, I'm going to wait until the players are $500 and the disks are at Best Buy/Netflix before I make the plunge.

HD-DVD players are $499 and HD-DVD discs are at Best Buy.

Welcome to last week.

I personally won't be buying for quite some time though. Perhaps by the end of this year, or perhaps sometime next year or later. I'm in no particular rush this time around, and I want to see how things settle out in the next little while. I'm also interested in any Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on announcement for E3, and the Playstation 3 with Blu-ray release in November.

[JoshuaZ]

I`ll buy one when I actually have a TV which can take advantage of them... which will be... umm... at my salary... hmmm... 10 years.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by goMac

1) HD-DVD moves can already be moved to the iPod.

3) The only reason Apple is requesting this is because Bluray can't be moved to other devices, while HD-DVD can.

1) No, they can't. The current HD-DVD releases all use VC-1, which the iPod does not support.

3) HD-DVD and BluRay both use the same Digital Restrictions Management system, AACS, and have both announced they will default to allowing the user to copy the movie off the disk, although with DRM limitations.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by mduell

1) No, they can't. The current HD-DVD releases all use VC-1, which the iPod does not support.

3) HD-DVD and BluRay both use the same Digital Restrictions Management system, AACS, and have both announced they will default to allowing the user to copy the movie off the disk, although with DRM limitations.

I keep telling him that but he doesn't listen.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mduell

1) No, they can't. The current HD-DVD releases all use VC-1, which the iPod does not support.

3) HD-DVD and BluRay both use the same Digital Restrictions Management system, AACS, and have both announced they will default to allowing the user to copy the movie off the disk, although with DRM limitations.

1) Doesn't matter. HD-DVD allows you to transcode. You'd have to transcode h.264 anyway as you probably don't want to be loaded hd movies onto your non-hd iPod.
3) They do, but with different standard rights. Bluray in present form does not allow any copies, although this is being changed to 1 copy mandatory to match HD-DVD, hence the delay in Bluray.

Edit: Here one of the articles talking about Bluray's issues with AACS:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060214-6182.html

The upshot is they are not using pure AACS. They stacked their own protection scheme on top to woo in more movie studios that weren't comfortable with AACS allowing the user to copy movies. In response, HP threatened to dump Bluray, so now they're trying to figure things out again, hence the Bluray delay.

[Hawkeye_a]

Just thought i'd chime in........

first off , ill admit that im behind you guys as far as info on these 2 formats go. but ill present my view, which is purely from a customer's standpoint.

So someone pointed out that both HD-DVD and BR discs have more than ample room to store a full length HD movie on em, right ? so to me, that translates to: capasity is no longer an issue. one maybe more than the other, etc...but i dont think it will matter a whole lot.

So with this iPod thing and BR. If it's true it would be rather cool. Sony would be using the iPod's popularity to boost its format. And in turn Apple could get BR drives for a discount in exchange for fairplay on iPod movies on BR discs. or something like that.

The impression from that is:
-Is Sony so threatened by HD-DVD (and other competitors of it's PS3) that it feels the need to give up it's portable media ambitions to ensure the succes of BR ?
-I dont think people will get iPod versions of the movie for free...im sure this will hike up the price a little, which is already way over the HD-DVD mark.(according to speculation so far)
-Does it really matter since....sooner of later, someone somewhere will figure out a way to 'rip' video content off either of these formats to convert to anything else anyway ?
-Does your average customer even care about more capasity and iPod versions of the movie ?

I'm just going to be a spectator till there is a clear winner. i dont feel the need to invest in either yet. HDTVs are coming of age..... and once you have standards set up, with dsplay modes, connectors, etc...thats when ill jump in.

Right now it seems like a big bunch of numbers.....resolutions, GBs, bandwidth, connectors, etc...a little too frustrating..ill let the market descide, and then ill make my investment.

Cheers

[mduell]

Originally Posted by goMac

1) Doesn't matter. HD-DVD allows you to transcode. You'd have to transcode h.264 anyway as you probably don't want to be loaded hd movies onto your non-hd iPod.
3) They do, but with different standard rights. Bluray in present form does not allow any copies, although this is being changed to 1 copy mandatory to match HD-DVD, hence the delay in Bluray.

Edit: Here one of the articles talking about Bluray's issues with AACS:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060214-6182.html

The upshot is they are not using pure AACS. They stacked their own protection scheme on top to woo in more movie studios that weren't comfortable with AACS allowing the user to copy movies. In response, HP threatened to dump Bluray, so now they're trying to figure things out again, hence the Bluray delay.

1) Links please.

3) While Blu-Ray does not mandate that managed copy is enabled, it allows for it; it's up to the studios to decide if they want to enable it.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mduell

1) Links please.

3) While Blu-Ray does not mandate that managed copy is enabled, it allows for it; it's up to the studios to decide if they want to enable it.

3) Right, while HD-DVD mandates it. This is why Fox switched to Bluray. They didn't want people copying their movies to the computer.

1) http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...out-132092.php
(Sorry, full reuters story was down)
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12815
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12569
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...ray-137919.php
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/7043.cfm

While Sony won't admit it, it's generally known to be the reason Bluray is delayed.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by goMac

1) http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...out-132092.php
(Sorry, full reuters story was down)
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12815
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12569
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...ray-137919.php
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/7043.cfm

All of those links are about mandatory managed copy, something I have never disputed that HD-DVD has

Originally Posted by goMac

HD-DVD allows you to transcode. You'd have to transcode h.264 anyway as you probably don't want to be loaded hd movies onto your non-hd iPod.

Please provide links about HD-DVD allowing you to transcode to an iPod compatible format.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by ort888

I can't see this happening for many reasons. The iPod is a major competitor to many Sony products, including the PSP.

I don't think anyone buys a PSP for the same reason they buy an iPod. They just don't compete against each other otherwise Sony would have thrown more muscle behind PSP multimedia.

Anyway Sony's movie division is not the same as their game division. They have different partnerships.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by ort888

I can't see this happening for many reasons. The iPod is a major competitor to many Sony products, including the PSP.

I don't think anyone buys a PSP for the same reason they buy an iPod. They just don't compete against each other otherwise Sony would have thrown more muscle behind PSP multimedia.

Anyway Sony's movie division is not the same as their game division. They have different partnerships.

If this excellent thing happens I reckon the discs that include iPod movies will cost a little more because nobody wants Bluray movies to be ripped. At many many GBs it would take too long to rip so including an iPod movie for a little extra would be massive distribution for Apple.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by goMac

Other than you being an obvious Bluray troll I don't get how this changes anything.

Sorry that Nintendo didn't stick a Blu-ray drive in the Revolution but that doesn't make it right for you to be arrogant and abusive against anyone who actually like a Sony backed product. You've just been reported.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mduell

Please provide links about HD-DVD allowing you to transcode to an iPod compatible format.

...That's what AACS is. You can rip an HD-DVD/Blu-ray just like iTunes can rip a CD.