[AndyLee]

from BBC NEWS website -- April 24, 2006

Brussels protest over MP3 murder

About 80,000 people have taken part in a silent march in Brussels to protest over the murder of a teenager who refused to give thieves his MP3 player.
Many marchers laid flowers at the central station in tribute to Joe Van Holsbeeck, 17, who died on 12 April.

Despite the release by police of CCTV footage, two suspects remain at large.

It was the largest protest the country has seen since 1996, when there was a wave of public emotion and anger over paedophile killer Marc Dutroux.

Joe was with a friend at the busy central station when he was stabbed five times in the chest after refusing to hand over his digital music player to muggers.

At this funeral, the victim's coffin was carried by boy scouts

The rush-hour death shocked Belgium.

The murdered boy's parents held hands as they walked at the heart of the procession.

They had requested a silent march without banners or signs of political affiliation.

[AndyLee]

from BBC NEWS website -- April 26, 2006

Police in Belgium have arrested a suspect in the murder of a teenager who refused to give thieves his MP3 player.
Joe Van Holsbeeck, 17, was stabbed at Brussels central station on 12 April during the evening rush-hour.

A Polish-born youth, 16, has been taken into custody but police believe a second youth has fled to Poland.

Initial reports that the suspects were of north African origin had threatened to destabilise community relations, with Muslim leaders calling for calm.

[AndyLee]

offer your condolences to Joe's family online
http://www.pilpot.net/pourjoe/
français - Nederlands - English - Deutsch

[Eriamjh]

In the US, they used to kill you for your shoes.

[Kevin]

Materialistic sociopaths.

[Big Mac]

That's a tragic story. People packing white earbuds may need to consider packing heat as well.

[Kevin]

If someone wants my iPod THAT bad, they can have it.

All I would ask was to let me delete the naked pictures of their mothers off it first.
That would traumatize them.

[Millennium]

This is a sad story indeed, but I don't understand what the protests are about. What are people protesting against?

[JoshuaZ]

That really frickin sucks. I had heard about iPods being targeted, but this is extreme.

[sabrejim]

I don't get the protests either. The guy wasn't really stabbed for the iPod, he was stabbed because he didn't give it up. Completely different.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Millennium

This is a sad story indeed, but I don't understand what the protests are about. What are people protesting against?

It looks to me that they aren't protesting against anything. They are expressing their desire for a better society where tragedies like these don't happen.

[hickey]

remember kids getting killed for their North Face gear?

[krillbee]

Originally Posted by kaze0

I don't get the protests either. The guy wasn't really stabbed for the iPod, he was stabbed because he didn't give it up. Completely different.

Maybe stabbed to death "over" an ipod would be a better title, since the ipod was what started it all.

But still, I'm pretty sure that getting the ipod was the biggest motivator for the stabbing, not because they were frustrated with the kid (but im sure they were still somewhat frustrated)

I think the protests are against evil people who would do such a thing.

[sabrejim]

It's bolivious that it's the kids fault.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by kaze0

I don't get the protests either. The guy wasn't really stabbed for the iPod, he was stabbed because he didn't give it up. Completely different.

I disagree. The goal of the whole exercise was to get the iPod. If the attackers were willing to stab their victim for it, then whether or not the guy gave it up is irrelevant. They don't have a right to his stuff just because they have knives.

[production_coordinator]

It seems like every few weeks we see such a post... it is nothing more than an new twist on an old theme...

I remember growing up, and it was someone being killed over their Walkman, jacket, shoes or jeans. While VERY sad... this is nothing new. People kill for items every day...

[The Milkman]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

It seems like every few weeks we see such a post... it is nothing more than an new twist on an old theme...

I remember growing up, and it was someone being killed over their Walkman, jacket, shoes or jeans. While VERY sad... this is nothing new. People kill for items every day...

Maybe this happens on a daily basis in your part of the world. Around here this sort of crime is a first. That's the reason all those people protested. We're shocked, sad and frustrated and refuse to accept that we now live in a time when a schoolkid, sitting in a trainstation, listening to music, can be stabbed for his mp3 player (or for refusing to hand it over - I fail to see the difference).

Regarding the thread title, never was it mentioned that the mp3-player was an iPod. A security camera did show the robber flee, holding a "white object".

[memory-minus]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

It looks to me that they aren't protesting against anything. They are expressing their desire for a better society where tragedies like these don't happen.

This is a concept Americans simply do not comprehend.

[sabrejim]

We are the worrrrrld
we are the people

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

That's a tragic story. People packing white earbuds may need to consider packing heat as well.

He should've gotten the Kaloshnikov accessory for his iPod.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

He should've gotten the Kaloshnikov accessory for his iPod.

Nice!

[driven]

Originally Posted by memory-minus

This is a concept Americans simply do not comprehend.

Hey ... thanks for lumping all of us together. I see that you have the perception that we all think and act exactly the same.

[Dr Reducto]

Originally Posted by memory-minus

This is a concept Americans simply do not comprehend.

Sorry we don't like gestures that are futile.

No matter how many people march, there won't be any change in the situation. Only by real, non-symbolic action can anything be done.

I mean I could walk/rock/hold my breath against any number of nebulous ideals, but never accomplish anything

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by Millennium

This is a sad story indeed, but I don't understand what the protests are about. What are people protesting against?

Against useless violence.

[memory-minus]

Originally Posted by driven

Hey ... thanks for lumping all of us together. I see that you have the perception that we all think and act exactly the same.

I'm from Texas and live in North Carolina.

[memory-minus]

Originally Posted by Dr Reducto

Sorry we don't like gestures that are futile.

Nothing futile about solidarity against evil.

[The Milkman]

Originally Posted by Dr Reducto

Sorry we don't like gestures that are futile.

No matter how many people march, there won't be any change in the situation. Only by real, non-symbolic action can anything be done.

I mean I could walk/rock/hold my breath against any number of nebulous ideals, but never accomplish anything

I hope you are wrong.
What real, non-symbolic action do you propose? The right to bear arms? Electric chairs and lethal injections for murde convicts? Where did those things get you? You live in a society where the sort of thing the OP mentions is considered "normal".

[Dr Reducto]

Originally Posted by The Milkman

I hope you are wrong.
What real, non-symbolic action do you propose? The right to bear arms? Electric chairs and lethal injections for murde convicts? Where did those things get you? You live in a society where the sort of thing the OP mentions is considered "normal".

How about increased police patrols, maybe some safety campaigns to help people avoid bad situations, cracking down on street crime, etc.

You know, common sense stuff.

Although I personally would be a fan of allowing more citizens to carry firearms. I live in a state that doesn't think citizens should be allowed to defend themselves, though I still arm myself. I will not be victimized

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by The Milkman

I hope you are wrong.
What real, non-symbolic action do you propose? The right to bear arms? Electric chairs and lethal injections for murde convicts?

Well, here's what you get if you vote Doofy:

40 years minimum. With weekly beatings by a large hairy bloke called "Trevor" televised on a Saturday evening prime time. After the first two convictions, you ain't gonna see that crime happen again.

It's called a "deterrent". We don't have one here either.

[AndyLee]

80,000 people - young, old, Belgians, migrants, from all over the country - marched the streets of Brussels in silence, first of all: in remembrance of Joe Van Holsbeek, second: to protest against violence in general, and in public areas like train stations and such in particular. The protest was completely peaceful and not directed against a specific social/racial/religious group within the society. They protested especially against violence towards children and teenagers - a group of people often unable to defend themselves. They also protested especially against the fact that the life of a young person is not worth more than a few hundred euros / dollars. They marched the streets in favor of a society that is built on more equality, more harmony, more mutual understanding, less 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'.

See earlier post: share your feelings with the Van Holsbeek family - and do something with your opinion if you also want a safer society http://www.pilpot.net/pourjoe/ (french/dutch/englisch/german).

Thank you. And above all: enjoy your iPod (no sarcasm intended).

[AndyLee]

Originally Posted by Dr Reducto

Sorry we don't like gestures that are futile.

No matter how many people march, there won't be any change in the situation. Only by real, non-symbolic action can anything be done.

I mean I could walk/rock/hold my breath against any number of nebulous ideals, but never accomplish anything

Belgium is a small country (approx. 10 million inhabitants).
I can tell you that when 80,000 people hit the streets it's not futile.
What do you mean then by non-symbolic action?

[Dr Reducto]

Originally Posted by itchy1000

What do you mean then by non-symbolic action?

Actually doing something about the problem, instead of just marching.

[AndyLee]

Originally Posted by Dr Reducto

How about increased police patrols, maybe some safety campaigns to help people avoid bad situations, cracking down on street crime, etc.

You know, common sense stuff.

Although I personally would be a fan of allowing more citizens to carry firearms. I live in a state that doesn't think citizens should be allowed to defend themselves, though I still arm myself. I will not be victimized

The boy that was attacked was 17 years of age. Do you suggest that children and teenagers carrying around weapons is an appropriate answer to (this kind of) violence?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by itchy1000

They marched the streets in favor of a society that is built on more equality, more harmony, more mutual understanding, less 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'.

That's the problem, right there. Can't have a harmonious society without major punishment for those who would take advantage of that society. There will always be the one nail sticking up which needs hammering down.

[AndyLee]

Originally Posted by Dr Reducto

Actually doing something about the problem, instead of just marching.

That is what democracy is about: people hit the streets to make sure their voice is heard by people (politicians) who should take care of a safer society. I personally think it is a lot more than 'just marching'. Some years ago, Brussels saw the largest protest against child abuse, child abduction and so on (approx. 300,000 people). This protest ignited the complete reform of the police services in the country. I'm telling the whole story in a (very tiny) nutshell here, but the principle is clear I think. People get together to communicate with more impact on society.

[The Milkman]

Originally Posted by Dr Reducto

Actually doing something about the problem, instead of just marching.

I'm sorry to burst your armour-plated bubble but you're nowhere near a solution, you're just arming yourself against the problem.
This march IS a step in the direction of a solution: a change in mentality of society as a whole. Dealing with criminals is necessary, preventing (young) people to become criminals is much more important.

[Dr Reducto]

Originally Posted by itchy1000

That is what democracy is about: people hit the streets to make sure their voice is heard by people (politicians) who should take care of a safer society.

WTF?

Politicians don't make society any safer. The first step in reducing crime like this is community involvement. Getting off your ass and doing something yourself. Learn some tips on public safety, like sticking in groups, avoiding bad areas, not flaunting expensive items about. Also things like community patrols can go a long way.

Waiting around for politicians to come in and fix your problems is one of the worst ideas ever. The only thing they can really do is increase police spending or increase penalties for this type of thing. Both of which will help, but take a long time to make any inroads.

[AndyLee]

Originally Posted by kaze0

It's bolivious that it's the kids fault.

all right. if this is truly your opinion, I sincerely hope you're next.

[Dr Reducto]

Originally Posted by The Milkman

I
This march IS a step in the direction of a solution: a change in mentality of society as a whole.

Quite a lofty goal, but ultimately quite naive. Im sure all the criminals were sitting around thinking about the error of their ways while watching this. Then they got up and held hands and sang kumbuya.

[The Milkman]

Originally Posted by Dr Reducto

WTF?

Politicians don't make society any safer. The first step in reducing crime like this is community involvement. Getting off your ass and doing something yourself. Learn some tips on public safety, like sticking in groups, avoiding bad areas, not flaunting expensive items about. Also things like community patrols can go a long way.

Waiting around for politicians to come in and fix your problems is one of the worst ideas ever. The only thing they can really do is increase police spending or increase penalties for this type of thing. Both of which will help, but take a long time to make any inroads.

Again, safety is not in defending against treats, it's in making sure they don't arise in the first place. And politicians have a very imortant task in doing just that: making society safer by assuring everyone gets a fair chance in life and making people feel "happier" in general so the don't feel the need to commit criminal acts.

[AndyLee]

Originally Posted by Dr Reducto

WTF?

Politicians don't make society any safer. The first step in reducing crime like this is community involvement. Getting off your ass and doing something yourself. Learn some tips on public safety, like sticking in groups, avoiding bad areas, not flaunting expensive items about. Also things like community patrols can go a long way.

Waiting around for politicians to come in and fix your problems is one of the worst ideas ever. The only thing they can really do is increase police spending or increase penalties for this type of thing. Both of which will help, but take a long time to make any inroads.

a) Sticking in groups: I want to be able to walk on my own, wherever I want, whenever I want, without being robbed. Thank you.
b) Avoiding bad areas: the boy was killed during RUSH HOUR in the most crowdy train station of the country. Not exactly what you call a dark, deserted back alley.
c) Not flaunting expensive items about. Okay... then we all should leave our PDA, mobile, watch... at home, right?

I agree with you that 'waiting for politicians' to take action is not the (only) answer... the protest also brought the discussion about safety, community involvement and so on to the forefront which is a good thing in my opinion.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by The Milkman

And politician have a very imortant task in doing just that: making society safer by assuring everyone gets a fair chance in life and making people feel "happier" in general so the don't feel the need to commit criminal acts.

Human nature doesn't work like that. Try and form a society around that kind of thinking and you'll end up with kids getting stabbed for their iPods.

[The Milkman]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Human nature doesn't work like that. Try and form a society around that kind of thinking and you'll end up with kids getting stabbed for their iPods.

Really? It's worked pretty nicely until now. Until the american ways found their way into european society.

[AndyLee]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Human nature doesn't work like that. Try and form a society around that kind of thinking and you'll end up with kids getting stabbed for their iPods.

And what is your alternative? Please elaborate. Trying to build a better (safer) society this way is not naive. Thinking you can ban out all violence is naive.

[Dr Reducto]

Originally Posted by The Milkman

Really? It's worked pretty nicely until now. Until the american ways found their way into european society.

Yeah, damn America. Violence never existed there until America ruined it with gangsta rap and the weed.

And what is your alternative? Please elaborate.

The alternative in my eyes is working for the idealistic notions of peace, but acknowledging and confronting the realities of life.

a) Sticking in groups: I want to be able to walk on my own, wherever I want, whenever I want, without being robbed. Thank you.
b) Avoiding bad areas: the boy was killed during RUSH HOUR in the most crowdy train station of the country. Not exactly what you call a dark, deserted back alley.
c) Not flaunting expensive items about. Okay... then we all should leave our PDA, mobile, watch... at home, right?

I should be able to follow around a guy and call him a ********* all day without getting punched, but it doesn't seem to work like that. It's where the realities of life come in....aka the fuzzy grey area of life where common sense goes a long way.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by The Milkman

Really? It's worked pretty nicely until now.

It has?

Originally Posted by The Milkman

Until the american ways found their way into european society.

Nothing to do with the Americans, I'm afraid. Until a few decades back they didn't have these problems either. The Americans pump out endless "nice" films and entertainment but somehow we always plump for the nasty violent stuff. We choose Tarantino, not Tom Hanks. We choose Eminem, not Dolly Parton. Maybe it's a by-product of long-distance communications. Maybe it's a by-product of the very item you're staring into right now.
Maybe these things have always happened but you didn't know about them because you weren't so hooked in?

Or maybe our problems started somewhere around 1992 and are a little closer to home than you'd like to admit to yourself.

Originally Posted by itchy1000

And what is your alternative? Please elaborate.

Deterrent.

Originally Posted by itchy1000

Trying to build a better (safer) society this way is not naive. Thinking you can ban out all violence is naive.

The problem isn't in the sentiment, it's in the method. Europe has gone pretty wooly lately, pretty soft. Criminals need to be slapped. Hard. And other potential criminals need to see their colleagues being slapped so they'll think twice about it.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Nothing to do with the Americans, I'm afraid. Until a few decades back they didn't have these problems either. The Americans pump out endless "nice" films and entertainment but somehow we always plump for the nasty violent stuff. We choose Tarantino, not Tom Hanks. We choose Eminem, not Dolly Parton. Maybe it's a by-product of long-distance communications. Maybe it's a by-product of the very item you're staring into right now.
Maybe these things have always happened but you didn't know about them because you weren't so hooked in?

VERY well said!

[The Milkman]

Of course the US is not the source of all evil and violence in the world, I probably didn't word that correctly.
What I mean is that american society is by no means an example of a tolerant, unviolent one. And many facets of american culture have found their way into other parts of the world.
I don't exactly think highly of the human race and I have even come to believe that human beings are by nature selfish and capabale of violent acts. We are however quite intelligent and should be able to sustain a relatively violence-free society.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by The Milkman

Of course the US is not the source of all evil and violence in the world, I probably didn't word that correctly.
What I mean is that american society is by no means an example of a tolerant, unviolent one.

OK. Got ya.

[AndyLee]

I don't understand why this thread turned into a discussion between protagonists of a so-called 'american' and 'european' way of life.
As if only americans believe that crime can be reduced (and society made safer) by harsh punishment for criminals - and europeans don't.
As if only europeans believe that crime can by reduced (and society made safer) by taking democratic action - and americans don't.
Can we all agree that the truth lies somewhere in the middle here?
Extreme points of view are usually 'forgetting' important parts of reality…