[BRussell]

I'm probably going to a University in Europe, most likely Germany, in 2007, and I'd like to get some feedback on some of the differences I can expect to encounter. I'd be working there, not a student, but student perspectives and just general differences are really what I'm looking for - classes, exams, etc. Thanks.

[Monique]

Why don't you try to find an old year book and communicate with some of the graduated students and they will tell you what to expect. Maybe some of those students are also from the United States.

Found a website that might interest you, movetogermany.com

It has plenty of things on students' life...

[Monique]

One of the articles:

Going to University in Germany

Firstly, studying in a German university is pretty free. The “free” used here has not only the same meaning as “unrestricted”, but also means “gratis”. Most of German universities and colleges are opened to the whole society. People, regardless of sex, age and status, enjoy the equal chance to go to university. Foreign university students are also qualified to apply for a study place.

As a Chinese student pursuing my studies in a Germany university, I was deeply impressed when I began to study here, because it is so different from what I imagined that I was almost going to give it up. But it is just those what confused me at first that urged me determine to continue the university work. I’d like to share my experience with those who run into this essay.

When one sees an old lady or man on campus, you’d better not regard them as scrubwoman or gardener working in the university, if you are sure that they are not professors. They would probably appear in your seminar room some day, discussing problems with you. And young Germans have taken it for granted that grandmas and grandpas attend class along with them.

If you let me use three adjectives to describe the studies in German universities, I think no other words are more appropriate than the following three ones: free, active and diverse.

In recent years, further reformations of educational system in Germany open the gate wider to foreign students. With the arrival of foreign pursuer of studies many German universities are on the way of internationalization step by step.

Another characteristic of German universities is that there is not a strictly period limit within which students must finish their studies. Furthermore as they have the right to attain education, they are also allowed to leave campus whenever they want, being asked to inform nobody. During the whole studying process, students decide completely on their own which lectures and seminars to attend, when to take part in exams and obtain credits. Although there are special personnel in each faculty, who are in charge of consultation, one must make one’s decision independently. Nobody would interfere in your decision even if you take no course.

That is not to say, however, studying here is not rigorous. On the contrary, everyone must be responsible for one’s own decision. No doubt students who can’t pass exams or don’t study enough credits have to lengthen their study period. That means wasting time and money. And actually negative examples are not rarely, some of students don’t concentrate themselves on their studies, they spend more than a dozen of semesters or even give up to study at last.

As a matter of fact, the unrestricted studies in German universities have much more positive aspects. One of the greatest merits is to build up students’ independence and ability to teach themselves. They must arrange their studying plan on their own from the very beginning. Although students have a series of compulsory subjects to study within a certain study phase, they may determine when and by which professor they take course. As elective courses are more choices offered.

On the other hand, professors lay their teaching emphasis on development of ability instead of inculcation of knowledge. They aim at creating an interactive atmosphere in class. In other words, both the educator and the educated play an active role during a teaching process. Students participate in discussions, and question frequently, which lecturers and professors answer at any time or at the end of a class.

In the long run, it is not how many theories and formulas students have learned but how they apply knowledge in practice that are the goal during all the educational processes. Compared with that, our professors in Chinese universities occupy most time in a class, and they do their best to impart us as much as possible, regardless of our reaction and ideas. With respect of my own experience, it is not difficult to draw the conclusion, which model is more practical and effective.

Another significant feature of German universities is the diversity of their educational methods, such as lectures, seminars, tutorials, practical trainings, and experiments. As modes to test teaching effect are oral and written exams, written homework adopted. In some seminar participators are required to hold small lectures on basis of reading matters or own seminar paper.

And marks, as the scale of measuring study results in many peoples’ eyes, have greatly forfeited their dominant status. Just as mentioned above, it is not only knowledge and theoretics but also scientific elaborative faculty that what students learned from their tutors in class. The reader reference recommended by their professors provides them opportunities to dabble in study fields on their own. And a shrewd student would never hug himself on a high point. The development of ability and improvement in quality outweigh that much more.

Admittedly, some drawbacks still exist in German universities. For instance, foreign students should be more looked after; more and more late students heavily burden the budget of universities. Furthermore, studying in Germany usually cost longer time to get an academic degree.

Germany is one of the nations that possess a long educational tradition, and German universities enjoy fame throughout the world both in the past and at present. I never regret coming to study here. And I wish what I described above could give those a sketchy impression, who are planning to study abroad.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I'm probably going to a University in Europe, most likely Germany, in 2007, and I'd like to get some feedback on some of the differences I can expect to encounter. I'd be working there, not a student, but student perspectives and just general differences are really what I'm looking for - classes, exams, etc. Thanks.

What I found is that US universities are a lot better organized and structured. In Germany, for example (at least at the large, state-run, schools), nobody takes attendance or cares wether you show up for lectures or not.

When it comes to exams, in the US, things seem to be much more straight forward and mapped out (in a syllabus) (for most courses at least)). Here, I feel lucky when I manage to find out on what days the exams are.

You also don't have the kind of campus life and community feel you get in the US.

At the German uni, finding out which classes you need to take, and where there they are held, can be more challenging than passing them at times and the bureaucracy involved is almost unbearable.

Needles to say that going to college is (still) a lot more expensive in the States than in most European countries, but there are some (minor) fees involved.

Depending on which city/school you are going to stay, finding an apartment might turn out to be a daunting task as well.

BTW, which university are you planning on attending?

[BRussell]

Thanks for the responses. Nothing is set yet, but it may be Heidelberg. If that doesn't pan out, then I'm looking at Berlin as a second choice.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Nothing is set yet, but it may be Heidelberg…

In that case, start looking for an appartment NOW !

/BTW, don't be put off by all my negative commentary. There are a lot of fun and exciting aspects to attending a German university, and Heidelberg is one of the best places go, IMO.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Monique

On the other hand, professors lay their teaching emphasis on development of ability instead of inculcation of knowledge. They aim at creating an interactive atmosphere in class. In other words, both the educator and the educated play an active role during a teaching process. Students participate in discussions, and question frequently, which lecturers and professors answer at any time or at the end of a class.

Yep, I concur with that - it's pretty much how I used to run things.

[philm]

Originally Posted by Monique

Why don't you try to find an old year book ...

Well, there's one difference right there. I think that the concept of a 'year book' is exclusively American.

[OreoCookie]

The article supplied by Monique contains some of the essential differences. You are not pampered, but on the other hand, you can decide for yourself. Many students don't go to lectures if they don't like the professor's style, they learn the stuff by themselves and during the tutorials.

It's also true that you don't have a campus, so the nightlife is in the city and not university. Some universities are in the city, so instead of a campus, you have the whole city (the LMU in Munich for instance is right in the city center, surrounded by a whole ecosystem of cafés and cheap restaurants). Also, some people underestimate the quality of education at a German university. Generally people with a diploma have more diverse knowledge than someone who graduated from an Anglo-Saxon-style university.

PhD students for instance don't have classes anymore, they just do research and have some mandatory teaching duties. Otherwise they are free to do research as they see fit.

PS I'll post more tomorrow, I have to catch some sleep now.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by philm

Well, there's one difference right there. I think that the concept of a 'year book' is exclusively American.

No, it's not. There's a long tradition of yearbooks at German High Schools, but it is dedicated to the class which has just graduated that year.

It's very rare at university-level, though.

[BRussell]

Is the testing situation different? I've heard there's more emphasis on final exams and there isn't much in the way of testing during the course. That seems quite a bit different from what I'm familiar with.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Thanks for the responses. Nothing is set yet, but it may be Heidelberg. If that doesn't pan out, then I'm looking at Berlin as a second choice.

If you go to Heidelberg, are you planning to come back with those neat-o scars? (And yes, they do still exist, I have seen them at the Schnookeloch).

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

If you go to Heidelberg, are you planning to come back with those neat-o scars? (And yes, they do still exist, I have seen them at the Schnookeloch).

Haha, no thanks. I'd be happy to provide one for someone else though.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Wait...did someone say they took attendance at American universities?!? Was that a joke? I haven't seen that since high school....

I just did a Violent Weather course in the Faculty of Earth and Atmospheric Science. It was on tornadoes, hurricanes, cyclones, etc. etc. Anyways, the prof was South African and completely cracked. I managed to pull off an A in the course by going to about 10 of the 30-odd lectures during the semester - I didn't even bother attending the last 3.5 weeks of class, even with a final exam worth 70%.


greg

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

Wait...did someone say they took attendance at American universities?!? Was that a joke? I haven't seen that since high school....

I think it's pretty rare, but it does happen.

Would it be strange for a European/German class to have exams throughout the semester in addition to the final, and would it be strange to have other assignments throughout the course? Is it typical to have one big final worth 70%? I think that's pretty rare in the US. Usually the grade is more distributed throughout the semester.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Is the testing situation different? I've heard there's more emphasis on final exams and there isn't much in the way of testing during the course. That seems quite a bit different from what I'm familiar with.

Yes, that's true. In the beginner's courses, a certain amount of homework points is mandatory to take the exam. Very few courses have a sort of mid-term exam.

In physics, only the beginner's exams are written exams. The emphasis is put on 1) problems (homework) and 2) understanding the broader picture in the oral exam. However, I must caution that the details depend strongly on the subject and the university. Sociologists at LMU (the `other' university in Munich, the biggest one in Germany) for instance have to take written exams all the way up until the end.

What subject will you teach/tutor? (People in natural sciences can typically speak English fluently, in physics and math, almost all higher-level books are written in English (or a select few by French for French ) and I spend most of the day speaking English rather than German. In physics even undergraduate students accept that sometimes they have to submit a report in English, because the tutor can't read German.)

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Would it be strange for a European/German class to have exams throughout the semester in addition to the final, and would it be strange to have other assignments throughout the course? Is it typical to have one big final worth 70%? I think that's pretty rare in the US. Usually the grade is more distributed throughout the semester.

Nope, assignments are the rule in undergrad courses. Later on, you either have to give a talk about a subject and/or writing an essay for the course. Basically the idea is that they want you to get scientifically productive.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

Wait...did someone say they took attendance at American universities?!? Was that a joke? I haven't seen that since high school....

Actually they took attendance for pretty much all of the classes IIRC. And in some cases, when you had more than 3 unexcused absences you failed the course.

That's why I had a 1.8 GPA my first semester…

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Generally people with a diploma have more diverse knowledge than someone who graduated from an Anglo-Saxon-style university.

I find exactly the opposite to be true. Especially as an undergraduate you are required to take a diversity of different courses at an American university, while at German schools you pretty much focus on one or two fields of study from the start.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

I find exactly the opposite to be true. Especially as an undergraduate you are required to take a diversity of different courses at an American university, while at German schools you pretty much focus on one or two fields of study from the start.

At first glance, perhaps. But what you learn at college/university, all Germans (who are entitled ot enter university) have learnt in their last years of high school. In Germany, there are two/three different high school degrees (depending on the state).

Only the highest one allows you to enter university. At Gymnasium (Grammar School) topics are covered that are offered only at college/university in the US. From personal experience at an American high school, I can say that classes at Gymnasium go much deeper than their equivalents at an American high school. Germans are taught in a broad variety of subjects at an earlier point, that's the main difference.

That's the reason Germans don't study these subjects at university and hence you can spend more time broadening your perspective on the specific subject you are majoring in. I was really referring to the know-how in your major and minor when I said that you receive a broader education at university here.

PS What have you studied/what will you do in Germany?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

At first glance, perhaps. But what you learn at college/university, all Germans (who are entitled ot enter university) have learnt in their last years of high school.

Having attended both a German Gymnasium and an American university, I have to disagree with this notion. The depth and range of what you are taught as an undergrad in the US by far exceeds what you learn at a German "high-school".

Both the methods of deduction and teaching are very different, and IMO, superior to those in a Gymnasium.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I was really referring to the know-how in your major and minor when I said that you receive a broader education at university here.

I believe that would depend on your major and the kind of school you are going to. In my case, I found the "know-how" and material covered was more in depth and inclusive compared to the German "curriculums".

But again, that may be completely different when it comes to other fields of study. A degree from MIT or Harvard is probably very different from what you get from a community college.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

PS What have you studied/what will you do in Germany?

I majored in English and Anthropology at the University of Heidelberg. I only attended a few semesters though.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Having attended both a German Gymnasium and an American university, I have to disagree with this notion. The depth and range of what you are taught as an undergrad in the US by far exceeds what you learn at a German "high-school".

My situation is reversed, I went to high school in the States for a year (junior year, but I took almost exclusively senior courses). But I have some `second-hand' experience from my hostmom and some American friends I have met in Japan.

My hostmom had to take some mandatory math classes for instance, she took statistics. The content of that course was exactly what is taught at Gymnasium in Germany. I agree, however, that you can take a wider variety of courses to fulfill your requirements, courses that are not taught at Gymnasium (or high school for that matter).

Also we (as in physicists and mathematicians) start using graduate-level text books as early as in the third semester. At university, I very much prefer the German approach. I had a taste of an American-style university in Japan (the structure is Anglo-Saxon, but as will all things that enter Japan, they are Japanized, so take this with a grain of salt), and I was not impressed by the classes that were offered there at all. I could go into detail here, but unless you know math/physics, you have to believe me that what they do in two semesters, at TU Munich, we often do in one.

The last piece of evidence comes from foreign PhD students; all of the professors I got to know closer have said that someone with a German diploma has more diverse knowledge (of math and physics in my case) than someone with an MSc degree in the States.

Don't get me wrong here, American universities have lots and lots of good people and it's a really good place to do research. It's easier to give a position if they really want someone. The whole university system is flexible enough to create a position if necessary. That's impossible here in Germany. And since good people attract more good people, it's a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Any German professor in my field I have met to date has spent some time either in England or the States for at least one year, but usually much longer than that. I will do the same by going to Berkeley next year (I'm preparing my application for the DAAD grant as we speak) and I'm really looking forward to working with the professor I have chosen.

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Both the methods of deduction and teaching are very different, and IMO, superior to those in a Gymnasium.

What I liked about high school is that people who were good at a subject in school were admired, something that's completely lacking in Germany. I found that most of the classes were super-easy to pass (with the exception of Health and Phys Ed, I was better than the native speakers, including in English and American Government). You just learn something by heart and you pass the multiple choice test. Plus the whole extra credit thing. In chemistry, we had a mol(e) day where you could make 1 mol(e) and you'd get extra credit.

I agree that it strongly depends the level of difficulty depends on the school you are going to, but my impression of American high school was that you were learning more recipes, but you understood less what was really going on (after AP Calc, I was quite swift differentiating and integrating some random function, but the underlying principles were not taught as deeply). Overall, I had a much easier time at high school than at Gymnasium.

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

I believe that would depend on your major and the kind of school you are going to. In my case, I found the "know-how" and material covered was more in depth and inclusive compared to the German "curriculums".

Again, the original comment was aimed at the education at university.

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

But again, that my be completely different when it comes to other fields of study. A degree from MIT or Harvard is probably very different from what you get from a community college.

Yeah, true. A degree from a good university here in Germany is also worth some extra cash. However, I do think that the reputation of a university is a bit overrated. I'm not sure whether you are familiar with Ruttgers, but this is really one of THE places for mathematical physics in the States (and obviously in the world). The name isn't as popular as Princeton or so, but I wouldn't necessarily say Princeton has a `better' mathematical physics department (equally excellent is more like it).

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

I majored in English and Anthropology at the University of Heidelberg. I only attended a few semesters though.

Ah, I see. What are you doing now? PhD?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Again, the original comment was aimed at the education at university.

So was mine. What I'm saying is that you learn a lot more and get a much broader spectrum of education as an undergrad (at a university) in the US compared to (the last 2 years) in a German Gymnasium (again, depending on the type of major you are going for, and the school you are attending)

I really don't know a lot about majoring in physics or math at a university level (as a matter of fact, I dropped those two subjects as soon as I could ), but a friend of mine who got his Ph.D. in physics and works at the Max-Planck Institut was rather happy with the education he got at the University of Heidelberg (or so I guess)

If I had to make a choice of what college to attend I would make that completely dependent on what I'm majoring in. But from what I've heard, most of the time a US school will have the better profs, corriculum, research facilities etc.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Ah, I see. What are you doing now? PhD?

LOL. No. Actually I might go for a Masters in 'design' (maybe at the FH in Mannheim). Right now though I'm just happy working and doing other things in my life.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Would it be strange for a European/German class to have exams throughout the semester in addition to the final, and would it be strange to have other assignments throughout the course? Is it typical to have one big final worth 70%? I think that's pretty rare in the US. Usually the grade is more distributed throughout the semester.

Well, I'm in Canada of course, and this class was relatively rare (perhaps because of the oddball prof) in that it was a 30% midterm exam, 70% final exam.

However. while every class is of course different depending on the subject and what the prof likes, most courses I take have something like a 20% midterm, another 25% midterm (or possibly a lab component if there is one, or possibly a term-paper essay), a 15% assignment/lab/something else, and a 40% final exam. It varies widely - this past semester I had everything from a 40% term paper essay along with a midterm, debate and final, to a simple 25% assignment and 75% final exam split.

As well, we don't have oral exams in science, unless you're doing postgrad of course. I've also never heard of homework points - the closest thing we have to that here is small assignments (often in lab components of the course), which I guess are just designed to ensure people do the work. For the most part that I've seen here in Canada, all the emphasis for doing work in a course is put on the student. If you don't want to go to class, or do any homework, it's up to you - no one else knows, or cares. Makes it easier to take your money when you flunk out, I guess....


Anyways, this was about Germany, so I'll butt out now. I was just fascinated that they actually take attendance. Crazy! Now that I think about it, in my first-year Stats class we had a Chinese prof who was up here for a year from some US college. He was pretty anal. He'd get upset if people came to class late, or left early, and stuff. I just thought he was an idiot at the time, but maybe it was just a lot more strict where he came from?

greg

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Yes, that's true. In the beginner's courses, a certain amount of homework points is mandatory to take the exam. Very few courses have a sort of mid-term exam.

In physics, only the beginner's exams are written exams. The emphasis is put on 1) problems (homework) and 2) understanding the broader picture in the oral exam. However, I must caution that the details depend strongly on the subject and the university. Sociologists at LMU (the `other' university in Munich, the biggest one in Germany) for instance have to take written exams all the way up until the end.

What subject will you teach/tutor? (People in natural sciences can typically speak English fluently, in physics and math, almost all higher-level books are written in English (or a select few by French for French ) and I spend most of the day speaking English rather than German. In physics even undergraduate students accept that sometimes they have to submit a report in English, because the tutor can't read German.)

My subject is psychology (experimental). The class would be for PhD students, I believe. All these folks publish in English language journals. The grant I'm applying for asks specifically about how you would change your teaching methods for the new country. Of course I need to find out from my hosts what they think, but I thought it would be a good idea to get some other views too.

[production_coordinator]

Attendance depends upon the class and university. Some could care less, some make it part of the class (aka Class Participation). My undergrad was mixed, but much of my grad work was required attendance (you could skip out once, but any more and you had someone breathing down you neck).

I've always stayed away from classes that had ONLY a midterm and final for the overall grade. I like it when they break it up in to a few projects. (report/paper, two good sized tests, project and final).

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by BRussell

My subject is psychology (experimental). The class would be for PhD students, I believe. All these folks publish in English language journals. The grant I'm applying for asks specifically about how you would change your teaching methods for the new country. Of course I need to find out from my hosts what they think, but I thought it would be a good idea to get some other views too.

The classes I enjoyed most were actually smaller seminars, I did a whole bunch of them, a lot more than required. The one I enjoyed most was with perhaps 8, 9 other students and three (!) professors. I never quite liked these huge lectures anyway. Chances are that it'll be a great experience, independent of the country

Also, as I have remarked initially, afaik PhD students in Germany don't need to take any classes. So I don't think you need to worry about exams and grades at all.