Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

tavilach · May 23, 2006, 02:51 AM

I'd like to read some books that will introducee me various programming languages that I'm not currently familair with, in order to build up my arsenal of marketable skills. So many CS jobs demand so many random skills, and I'm struggling to figure out where I should pick them up.

I was turned down by one internship for lack of GUI development experience, specifically in Java. Does anyone have any book ideas regarding Java GUI development? I'm not sure if I should be learning Swing, or AWT, or something else...

I also don't have a solid JavaScript and AJAX background. Any book ideas?

Then there's .NET. I don't know I could learn it without a PC, but I do have a PC over the summer. What exactly is .NET?

My current "arsenal" consists of the following programming/web languages:

Familiarity is on a 1 to 10 scale:

PHP (9)
Java (10)
C (9)
C++ (7)
MIPS Assembly (10)
MATLAB (5)
JavaScript (3)
HTML (9)
CSS (6)
SQL (4)

Any ideas on what would be a good idea to learn?

goMac · May 23, 2006, 03:01 AM

Learn Cocoa, Win32, or .Net.

It's interesting you were turned down for a lack of Swing experience. First, all first year students in the CS program I was in were taught Swing, and secondly, Java honestly sucks. There aren't many serious software houses that use it. You'll find it online, but Java stuff is mostly being replaced with newer web technologies. I can't think of many places that seriously deploy Java desktop applications.

If you want to go web, do JavaScript and Ajax. Most of the really cool stuff these days is done in that.

I hate to say this already having recommended Win32, but Swing is a pretty horrible API anyway.

Hey, why not OpenGL? OpenGL is a fun one to learn, and it works everywhere. I'm not sure it's going to be directly relevant to a job, but it sure looks good on a resume.

tavilach · May 23, 2006, 03:15 AM

Berkeley focuses on teaching us how to learn, assuming that we'll pick the rest up in the workplace or what not. I'm not going to start doubting the program, but sometimes it'd be nice to learn a few practical things, i.e. GUI development.

That's odd that you say that Java is rarely used, because a huge portion of jobs that I've been looking at require Java knowledge, to the point that it really surprised me. I haven't been looking at too many "software houses," though.

Is Win32 what Visual Studio uses? Where does .NET fit in? If there are really so many diferrent ways of developing a GUI, perhaps I should just wait to learn that in the workplace...

Cocoa looks like fun, but I doubt it'd help my resume too much. OpenGL isn't really of interest to me.

Any other suggestions for things to learn aside from GUI? Perhaps ASP would be nice to know, for example?

goMac · May 23, 2006, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by tavilach

That's odd that you say that Java is rarely used, because a huge portion of jobs that I've been looking at require Java knowledge, to the point that it really surprised me. I haven't been looking at too many "software houses," though.

Well, my qualifiers are I hardly ever see it in commercial software. Honestly, I've seen more .Net software than Java software. Maybe companies are using it for internal applications, but nothing has dethroned C as of yet.

In my experience (ymmv), part of having a versatile resume is knowing a lot of different languages and generally not specific API's. If you'd like to go for specifically a Java job, sure, go ahead and learn Swing. Otherwise, pile on experience in your language weak areas, like JavaScript.

Edit: Don't bother with ASP, I did an entire database system using it and MSSQL about 7 years ago. I've never used it since.

davecom · May 23, 2006, 12:33 PM

I don't understand how you can consider your Java knowledge a '10'? Half of most programming for commercial development is knowing how to get around the libraries/APIs, and the Java standard libraries (or packages I guess) are essential I believe in considering oneself well versed in Java. Not that they're that hard to pick up though. You can learn AWT and Swing easily over the Summer.

davecom · May 23, 2006, 12:34 PM

Oh and .NET with C# is worth the time.

goMac · May 23, 2006, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by davecom

I don't understand how you can consider your Java knowledge a '10'? Half of most programming for commercial development is knowing how to get around the libraries/APIs, and the Java standard libraries (or packages I guess) are essential I believe in considering oneself well versed in Java. Not that they're that hard to pick up though. You can learn AWT and Swing easily over the Summer.

I'm not sure why Swing is such a big deal anyway. Once you learn the language, learning an API for a language isn't that hard. It seems odd you got turned down for a job based on not knowing Swing. If you know Java that well, Swing takes a week to learn probably. It's not like Swing is a language within itself.

Millennium · May 23, 2006, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

If you want to go web, do JavaScript and Ajax. Most of the really cool stuff these days is done in that.

Agreed, but that only gets you the frontend side of things. You still need something to program the backend.

tavilach · May 23, 2006, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by davecom

I don't understand how you can consider your Java knowledge a '10'? Half of most programming for commercial development is knowing how to get around the libraries/APIs, and the Java standard libraries (or packages I guess) are essential I believe in considering oneself well versed in Java. Not that they're that hard to pick up though. You can learn AWT and Swing easily over the Summer.

When I say Java, I only mean the language.

Originally Posted by Millennium

Agreed, but that only gets you the frontend side of things. You still need something to program the backend.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Are you talking about databases?

Bah. I'm getting mixed messages as to whether or not I should spend the time to learn API's before getting a job that requires them. There are just so many, that perhaps it isn't worth it? Then again, if I have experience with any API, employers will probably assume that I can easily pick up another. Then again, this was probably only one of many reasons that I wasn't hired by the company I mentioned, but I simply don't know the other reasons.

goMac · May 23, 2006, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by tavilach

When I say Java, I only mean the language.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Are you talking about databases?

Bah. I'm getting mixed messages as to whether or not I should spend the time to learn API's before getting a job that requires them. There are just so many, that perhaps it isn't worth it? Then again, if I have experience with any API, employers will probably assume that I can easily pick up another. Then again, this was probably only one of many reasons that I wasn't hired by the company I mentioned, but I simply don't know the other reasons.

Careful how you phrase your knowledge of Java. You know the "Java language", you don't know Java at a 10. Java is, in itself, a collection of API's. It's like saying you know Cocoa when really you just know Objective C. Cocoa is a collection of Objective C API's. Objective C is just the language. Same goes for .Net and C#. .Net is the API, and C# is the language. Saying you know .Net implies you know both the API and C#. Java, unfortunately, gives the collection of it's API's and the actual language the same name. Careful you don't unintentionally mislead a potential employer.

That said, in my opinion, learning the API's doesn't matter. YMMV based on your past job experience, but if you know the language the API is for, it's not hard to pick up on the API. I've even taken jobs (such as the ASP job), where my employer was aware I didn't even know the language. I just take a few weeks to pick up the language. If you look at most jobs Apple posts for the Cocoa team, Objective C knowledge is helpful, but not required for the job. They'll take a candidate with experience in another language if needed, and then I'm assuming get them learning Cocoa.

I'm not sure you should take getting turned down for lack of Swing experience personally. I don't think lack of Swing experience is important as long as you know Java. Maybe they had some uber-Swing guru also apply. But if my idealistic self was going to hire someone, I'd hire someone with experience in as many areas as possible, not just a bunch of concentrated knowledge in Java.

d4nth3m4n · May 23, 2006, 08:08 PM

get the awp with a deagle.

TheMosco · May 23, 2006, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by tavilach

When I say Java, I only mean the language.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Are you talking about databases?

No, he is talking about the the web applications that serves the Ajax and javascript. I interned at a software company the last 2 summers. The server software was a J2EE web application using Struts that ran on BEA Weblogic. The web interface was rendered using Ajax and Javascript. Hibernate was also used with an Oracle database.

goMac · May 23, 2006, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by TheMosco

No, he is talking about the the web applications that serves the Ajax and javascript. I interned at a software company the last 2 summers. The server software was a J2EE web application using Struts that ran on BEA Weblogic. The web interface was rendered using Ajax and Javascript. Hibernate was also used with an Oracle database.

Right, but if he's just writing a Java based backend, Swing kind of becomes irrelevant.

ghporter · May 23, 2006, 09:00 PM

If you're both confident and competent with what you listed in your post, and you like learning, get a Dummies book on Java, and one on Java Script. Really! They are written with a light style, but these books have tons of great information in them. And they generally cater to both noobs AND experienced people who need to tack on another language or paradigm. And you get Rich Tennant cartoons with the deal too!

Seriously, Dummies books are worth your time.

tavilach · May 23, 2006, 09:18 PM

Wow...

J2EE, Struts, BEA Weblogic, Oracle database...

How does everything fit together? This is the kind of thing that employer's list, and it really confuses me...

goMac · May 23, 2006, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by tavilach

Wow...

J2EE, Struts, BEA Weblogic, Oracle database...

How does everything fit together? This is the kind of thing that employer's list, and it really confuses me...

That's the art of computer science. Fitting different things together.

TheMosco · May 23, 2006, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Right, but if he's just writing a Java based backend, Swing kind of becomes irrelevant.

Right, but that was a reference to you saying:

If you want to go web, do JavaScript and Ajax.

Like Millennium, that only gives you a front end. I was just explaining what Millennium was talking about.

goMac · May 23, 2006, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by TheMosco

Right, but that was a reference to you saying:

Like Millennium, that only gives you a front end. I was just explaining what Millennium was talking about.

Personally, I usually work with a PHP + mySQL backend. I've never had a job building an J2EE backend. I think I tried to actually sell an employer on that once even and it didn't work.

TheMosco · May 23, 2006, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by tavilach

Wow...

J2EE, Struts, BEA Weblogic, Oracle database...

How does everything fit together? This is the kind of thing that employer's list, and it really confuses me...

Its funny, the point of the an internship is to become familar with these technologies. These tools aren't usually taught in school. But at the same time, some internships require these skills.

I am going to be a junior next year and this summer I am at my second software company. I thought i wasnt going to be doing much programming this summer, mainly working in server operations. However, i learned today that I am going to be taking over a nagios server which is a monitoring tool for servers. Custom plugins are written in perl. It is going to be great to get alot of perl experience. I am also learning alot about unix, apache, dns, and other networking technologies.

Don't be afraid to take an internship that isn't exactly what you want because you might end up being surprised. Something like doing QA can be a great learning expeirence. Usually at an interview, they will ask if you have any questions. Ask them if you would be able to experiment with new things. For example, if you are doing QA, ask them if you can do junit or ask them if it can lead into a development role. If you get a job, ask a developer if there are any side projects you can do. Once you get into the industry, its so much easier to get a job the second time around. This summer, I had 3 offers without even trying to get one. Why? Because they were all from former co-workers. Get a job, show people you work hard, and network.

TheMosco · May 23, 2006, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Personally, I usually work with a PHP + mySQL backend. I've never had a job building an J2EE backend. I think I tried to actually sell an employer on that once even and it didn't work.

The place I work at now uses a java backend now and my last company did too. One of the offers I turned down also used a J2EE backend. Both these companies are some of the hottest startups in the industry now. One of them one founded by one of the most influcial people in the bizz and the company has been on slashdot several times in the last year. PHP and mySQL are great, I am not sure that they are as robust as a J2EE application. All these companies deal media and content delivery over various mediums.

goMac · May 23, 2006, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by TheMosco

The place I work at now uses a java backend now and my last company did too. One of the offers I turned down also used a J2EE backend. Both these companies are some of the hottest startups in the industry now. One of them one founded by one of the most influcial people in the bizz and the company has been on slashdot several times in the last year. PHP and mySQL are great, I am not sure that they are as robust as a J2EE application. All these companies deal media and content delivery over various mediums.

I think my employer liked the better portability of php. Something about not wanting to have to set up a J2EE server even though they were mostly on XServes. I think their web server was Win2k though. Actually for my current job I'm building a Cocoa front end with just a mySQL backend. Someone else gets to right the PHP web based version.

torsoboy · May 24, 2006, 01:25 AM

My 2 cents...

If you want to learn web development learn ASP.NET with the C# backend. C# is ruling the world right now and tying it into ASP.NET is pretty dang easy. You will also need to know SQL if you plan on doing web development much. Regardless of the flavor (MySQL, Oracle, MS SQL, PosgreSQL, etc) the basic language is VERY common among them all and a "4" in SQL isn't much to tell an employer. If you want to go with free languages PHP is getting pretty powerful, and although you gave yourself a "9" I'd bet it's more like a 6. Your numbers just seem a bit high for never having done real-world work with the languages.

For non-web languages I would go with C++ and C#; if you already know Java then C# should come pretty naturally.

I guess I am biased though... I've worked doing web development for the past 5 years and the languages that I use most every day include SQL (MySQL and MS SQL), ASP, ASP.NET, C#, PHP, Javascript, and VBScript. With some occassional HTML of course.

Chuckit · May 24, 2006, 01:29 AM

Or you could, y'know, not be Microsoft's bitch.

tavilach · May 24, 2006, 01:30 AM

Sorry if I seemed like my numbers are too high. A 10 just means that I can go anything that I can forsee myself needing to do: It doesn't mean I believe that I'm better than someone with job experience

.

My databases class should cover SQL, and I'll also have to get it up to at least a 7 over the summer, because I'll be using it for some research I'm doing.

torsoboy · May 24, 2006, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by TheMosco

The place I work at now uses a java backend now and my last company did too. One of the offers I turned down also used a J2EE backend. Both these companies are some of the hottest startups in the industry now. One of them one founded by one of the most influcial people in the bizz and the company has been on slashdot several times in the last year. PHP and mySQL are great, I am not sure that they are as robust as a J2EE application. All these companies deal media and content delivery over various mediums.

Were these companies top secret or something? Can't name names for some reason?

It just sounds like an advertisement with all of those buzz words/phrases: "some of the hottest startups in the industry", "founded by one of the most influcial people in the bizz", "been on slashdot several times in the last year"

torsoboy · May 24, 2006, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Or you could, y'know, not be Microsoft's bitch.

Ohhh.... I get it now... don't learn anything that is an Industry Standard because a company you don't like (for most likely no reason) has developed it. Gotcha; that'll help you get a job.

goMac · May 24, 2006, 01:47 AM

ASP.net and MSSQL really aren't that nice. I'll admit, MSSQL has some nice features, but it can't really beat PHP and mySQL. If anything, they're the standard. ASP has never really caught on.

Chuckit · May 24, 2006, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by torsoboy

Ohhh.... I get it now... don't learn anything that is an Industry Standard because a company you don't like (for most likely no reason) has developed it. Gotcha; that'll help you get a job.

In what industry are ASP.Net and VBScript the standards? Windows evangelist site development?

And I can't imagine what anybody might have against a convicted illegal monopoly that managed to buy its way out of any real repercussions and which continues to make awful, insecure software that succeeds at all only because it was created by said monopoly. I'm sure I don't have any valid reasons for not wanting to support Microsoft.

torsoboy · May 24, 2006, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

In what industry are ASP.Net and VBScript the standards? Windows evangelist site development?

And I can't imagine what anybody might have against a convicted illegal monopoly that managed to buy its way out of any real repercussions and which continues to make awful, insecure software that succeeds at all only because it was created by said monopoly. I'm sure I don't have any valid reasons for not wanting to support Microsoft.

I don't think anyone said anything about VBScript being a standard... but C# sure is, and where there's C#, ASP.NET can't be too far behind... once you have created a windows app in C# you can easily create a web app from that same code base by tying it into ASP.NET. And Windows runs on the majority of all computers, so don't try arguing that windows apps are not the standard.

And I'm sure you really care about a MS being a "monopoly"

Regardless of what you think (and even if they are a monopoly) C# is still a great language to learn if you want a markettable skill.

torsoboy · May 24, 2006, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

ASP.net and MSSQL really aren't that nice. I'll admit, MSSQL has some nice features, but it can't really beat PHP and mySQL. If anything, they're the standard. ASP has never really caught on.

I think they are both pretty easy to work with. The only thing I dislike about ASP.Net (in combination with C#) is that you have to recompile and re-deploy after every change in the app. ASP may not have caught on, but ASP.Net is a whole different story.

The question was what should he learn that would make him more marketable... my answers are valid even if they come from a source many of you don't like (MS). If you don't believe that they are marketable skills just take a look on dice.com or monster.com for opening for ASP.Net and C# programmers.

DICE.COM Searches:
C#: 5,000 results
ASP.Net: 4,000 results
MS SQL: 4,700 results
VB.Net: 2,000 results
PHP: 1,000 results
MySQL: 1,000 results

Now which was the standard again? Looks like it's not PHP and MySQL. I agree that they are great to work with, but they are not an industry standard.

ghporter · May 24, 2006, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Or you could, y'know, not be Microsoft's bitch.

That's like saying "I think ethanol is the ONLY way to power anything, so I just won't drive any available car or ride any bus that isn't 100% ethanol powered." Or like saying "Edison was right, DC is the only true way to distribute electricity, so damn the standards, I'm disconnecting my house from the grid!"

The majority of production software is done with SOME sort of Microsoft tool involved. Get over it.

Chuckit · May 24, 2006, 09:20 AM

Sure, man. Saying "I think it's good to support non-MS technologies, so your skill set shouldn't include almost exclusively their products" is exactly the same as saying "I think ethanol is the ONLY way to power anything, so I just won't drive any available car or ride any bus that isn't 100% ethanol powered."

goMac · May 24, 2006, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Sure, man. Saying "I think it's good to support non-MS technologies, so your skill set shouldn't include almost exclusively their products" is exactly the same as saying "I think ethanol is the ONLY way to power anything, so I just won't drive any available car or ride any bus that isn't 100% ethanol powered."

I think the problem is his skillset includes almost none of their products.

I've had the good fortune of working in Mac only shops. That said, I still had to do ASP once. I think PHP is definitely more popular for smaller or open source projects, but for bigger server products we buy, they are almost always J2EE or a flavor of .Net. For the .Net projects, we almost always have to add another poweredge or tower to the rack running Win2k3 (Here is to hoping for a Boot Camp XServe).

When C# came out I made a point of learning it. I've never programmed a serious project in it, and I've never fully flushed out C#'s API's. But if I one day interview for a job and C# comes up, I can tell my potential employer that I know C#, and could probably pick up whatever API's they are using that I never played with pretty quick.

A previous poster pointed out that you probably want to go for an internship over a job. I agree. I started interning before high school, and now I pretty much have a job every summer somewhere, not to mention my resume looked good enough that I became the manager of all Macs on campus Freshman year of college. If you have no track record of previous jobs, that might be why you got turned down for lack of Swing experience. A potential employer may want to make damn sure you know what you're doing if they don't see any previous jobs.