[Salty]

OK, so I'm debating trying to actually hack it as a poet. At least for a little while. My stuff isn't exactly super typical, where as a lot of poetry tends to feel pretty obscure, the meaning of my stuff really isn't terribly obscure (partly cause I most often write to communicate those meanings or feelings). Anyway, so I'm starting to try and put together something that publishers might find attractive. But the question is do publishers normally want to change a lot of things? Like should I be bothering with layout design and stuff like that, or is that all going to just get tossed out the window by the publisher anyway? I was also planning on integrating some graphic design stuff into the book, but I wonder if I should be doing that before or after I submit the stuff to a publisher or?

Really I'm just looking for some advice cause I have no idea what I should and shouldn't be doing.

[goMac]

I had articles published in RBDeveloper magazine, but I don't think that's what you're looking for.

My editor often didn't complain much. He'd re-paginate of course, and add in graphics were he thought necessary. Never got any complaint from me.

[Rob van dam]

I had work published throught a writing competion so i guess that counts.Wrote the story a couple of days before the cut off date and it was selected.

[Mastrap]

Nobody cares about your design. All publishers have guidelines for formatting submissions, normally that means letter format, double spaced. If you ignore these guidelines your Ms will go into the bin, unread.

Not to rain on your dreams, and you might well end up being the exception, but poetry in general doesn't sell. There are few publishers touching poetry and the ones that do generally do not excpect to make money out of it. There simply isn't much of a market for it. My own company has helped several authors to publish their poetry books, none of them has sold in anything approaching quantity.

[chris v]

Even the best will acquire a box full of rejection slips. I framed my first. I know a relatively successful writer, now an English Lit professor, who recieved over 150 rejections before ever having a single piece accepted. Also, the rejections can often be quite savage & personal. Get ready to be crushed, and try to have a sense of humor about it.

[abe]

Haha! Good for you.

Start here.

http://www.writersstore.com/product.php?products_id=338

Follow instructions.

Let us know how it's going or if any major problems arise.

Good luck!

[Monique]

Do not expect to become rich with poetry. But, if you love writing, do it, then get a copyright on it, and send it to every but every publishing house known to the English world. Do not take rejection personnally (even if it is very hard); if it is no for everyone then look at the criticism; change it slightly and send it back until they say yes.

[mindwaves]

True story:

I saw an ad in the PennySaver one day about submitting poems so I wrote one up when I was maybe 10 years old. I later received something about my poem was great and they wanted to publish it and I believe they asked me for my permission along with me to write a check for $60 if I wanted the finished book also (a collection of poems). I just said yes for it to be published, but I am unsure if it actually got published or not because I don't remember the name of the company anymore and I only vaguely remember my poem now.

[Doofy]

1) Expect to be able to redecorate the walls of your house with rejection letters (saves on wallpaper).

2) Take notice of Mastrap. He knows his publishing stuff.

3) Don't bother. Your stuff is too emo-style depressing. But it'd make reasonably good song lyrics, so see if you can't hook up with a band or musician. Bernie Taupin made a living off doing that.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by mindwaves

True story:

I saw an ad in the PennySaver one day about submitting poems so I wrote one up when I was maybe 10 years old. I later received something about my poem was great and they wanted to publish it and I believe they asked me for my permission along with me to write a check for $60 if I wanted the finished book also (a collection of poems). I just said yes for it to be published, but I am unsure if it actually got published or not because I don't remember the name of the company anymore and I only vaguely remember my poem now.

One of the oldest scams in the book. Get people to submit poetry for an 'anthology'. Flatter them a little. Then ask them to shell out $60 for a book that costs $5.00 to produce. Numbers of books sold to members of the public? Zero, zilch, nada. All the books go to the authors.

If you want to make money from books write either erotica (one of our best selling author has written a book about the how to of safe spanking) or special interest books.

[besson3c]

Salty,

Do you study/analyze a lot of poetry, studied the history and the important literature, or is poetry something that is easy to get started in without a deep understanding of the inner mechanics and a solid foundation of formal training?

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Salty,

Do you study/analyze a lot of poetry, studied the history and the important literature, or is poetry something that is easy to get started in without a deep understanding of the inner mechanics and a solid foundation of formal training?

I think that's a pretty good poem right there. Lots of layers. You're well on your way!

[Salty]

I don't really have any dilutions of making money doing poetry. Least not enough to pay the bills. But thanks Mastrap for and Chris, and to the other helpful people... there's never much money in the arts.

And besson, I've studied lit and stuff like that, though honestly not as much as I probably should.

And Doofy, yah my stuff's an easy read, I tend to avoid putting anything down that will be really tough to understand, I don't think that poetry should necessarily require 5 hours of study for basic understanding to be good.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Doofy

1) Expect to be able to redecorate the walls of your house with rejection letters (saves on wallpaper).

2) Take notice of Mastrap. He knows his publishing stuff.

3) Don't bother. Your stuff is too emo-style depressing. But it'd make reasonably good song lyrics, so see if you can't hook up with a band or musician. Bernie Taupin made a living off doing that.

My concepts might make for good lyrics. But my poetry would not. It would have to be heavily heavily adapted by the way have you checked out my poems like Oh So Christlike, and Gomer? My stuff is mainly written as more performance oriented. If I can picture myself speaking it on stage and getting a reaction from the audience it gets written.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Salty

My concepts might make for good lyrics. But my poetry would not. It would have to be heavily heavily adapted by the way have you checked out my poems like Oh So Christlike, and Gomer? My stuff is mainly written as more performance oriented. If I can picture myself speaking it on stage and getting a reaction from the audience it gets written.

Do you ever perform? Just curious.

[Salty]

As of yet the closest I've gotten to performance is doing short readings at coffee houses at school. But I do manage to get the whole student body snapping.

[Salty]

OK guys, I'd post this in my blog... but I'll have to edit it since not all my blog readers know I'm gay (some people from school read) The response I got from the publisher which also publishes a Christian mag.

"Poetry doesn't sell for us. We're not pursuing anymore projects (we did one
last fall). So we're not interested in your book project, but would you be
interested in writing for our magazine, website or be included as a source
in a story about christians and how they deal with homosexuality in the
church?"

Ironically I own the poetry book they published!

[porieux]

...

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Salty

My stuff is mainly written as more performance oriented. If I can picture myself speaking it on stage and getting a reaction from the audience it gets written.

That's why I suggested using them as lyrics - if you can perform it, you can shove it on top of music. The only people who want to go see that performance poetry crap are poets like yourself - and they're all far too busy waiting for their turn to perform their piece to actually listen to your piece.

Trust me, I'm a professional.

[Salty]

Depends. Keep in mind I'd probably travelling largely in Christian circles. Christians love sitting down and watching alternative forms of entertainment. It's a cultural thing.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Salty

Keep in mind I'd probably travelling largely in Canadian Christian circles. Canadian Christians love sitting down and watching alternative forms of entertainment.

Fixed, since I don't know any Christians here who're into "alternative" entertainment.

[Ulrich Kinbote]

Originally Posted by mindwaves

True story:

I saw an ad in the PennySaver one day about submitting poems so I wrote one up when I was maybe 10 years old. I later received something about my poem was great and they wanted to publish it and I believe they asked me for my permission along with me to write a check for $60 if I wanted the finished book also (a collection of poems). I just said yes for it to be published, but I am unsure if it actually got published or not because I don't remember the name of the company anymore and I only vaguely remember my poem now.

You were had by a vanity press.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_publisher

[ambush]

You *really* want to go to University. It really helps get you noticed, and you will probably be able to write a book as your phd project... that's what my mom did.

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by porieux

Sadly enough, your best bet is probably to get a job with Hallmark...

just like in mr deeds right? good luck with your quest salty, i'm sure something good will come from it

Brass

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Fixed, since I don't know any Christians here who're into "alternative" entertainment.

Same here.

[Salty]

I might try touring and then maybe go to a secular school after this next year. We'll see. Either way I just want to be out of school right now. And right now it's not hard to write a book of my poetry. I had over 30 poems that I considered book worthy and that I sent to the publisher, and that was even leaving out many others that most authors would use as filler for the good ones. It's not a problem putting together a book. The problem is getting it published.

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by Salty

I don't really have any dilutions of making money doing poetry....

um, no disrespect, but (echoing ambush) you should really have an excellent command of the english language if you want to be published for any kind of poetry/prose.

simple mistakes like this will get you laughed out of the room.

unless, of course, you were being ironic.

[Salty]

Yes I've had one person already PM me about this. I honestly did not realize that delusions was spelt that way and not dilutions. Honestly I have absolutely horrid spelling skills. OS X makes up for most of them, I used to fail absolutely ever spelling test I received in the younger grades. I was never good at spelling. In grade four the only word I could memorize how to spell was... I was going to say pollution but I went to spell it and I didn't realize it had two L's. Actually I also spelt realize badly when I was trying to think of how to spell. Normally I just remember keystrokes that make words out of muscle memory more so out of remembering how words are actually spelt.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Salty

I honestly did not realize that delusions was spelt that way and not dilutions.

Dude, that's not a spelling error - that's a not reading things properly error.

I mean, does it sound like "delusions" has a T in it if you're not from Brooklyn?

Slow down dude. Read stuff back to yourself.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Salty

I might try touring and then maybe go to a secular school after this next year. We'll see. Either way I just want to be out of school right now. And right now it's not hard to write a book of my poetry. I had over 30 poems that I considered book worthy and that I sent to the publisher, and that was even leaving out many others that most authors would use as filler for the good ones. It's not a problem putting together a book. The problem is getting it published.

I suggest that you try and get yourself an editor. All manuscripts, regardless of who wrote them, benefit from professional editing, and I suspect that yours might too.

We routinely have authors coming to us with a very similar attitude to yours. After working with an editor the better ones come back a lot humbler. The others just tend to fade away or go elsewhere.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

Yes I've had one person already PM me about this. I honestly did not realize that delusions was spelt that way and not dilutions. Honestly I have absolutely horrid spelling skills. OS X makes up for most of them, I used to fail absolutely ever spelling test I received in the younger grades. I was never good at spelling. In grade four the only word I could memorize how to spell was... I was going to say pollution but I went to spell it and I didn't realize it had two L's. Actually I also spelt realize badly when I was trying to think of how to spell. Normally I just remember keystrokes that make words out of muscle memory more so out of remembering how words are actually spelt.

Your grammar needs lots of attention too. I agree with Mastrap, finding an editor for your poetry can't hurt.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

I suggest that you try and get yourself an editor. All manuscripts, regardless of who wrote them, benefit from professional editing, and I suspect that yours might too.

We routinely have authors coming to us with a very similar attitude to yours. After working with an editor the better ones come back a lot humbler. The others just tend to fade away or go elsewhere.

I don't think I can afford an editor right now . I'd love to do it... though at the same time... I think I'd just curl up into a ball when having my poetry edited.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

I don't think I can afford an editor right now . I'd love to do it... though at the same time... I think I'd just curl up into a ball when having my poetry edited.

I'd be happy to help edit some of your pieces as best as I can. If you are open to this sort of peer review and want to improve your writing mechanics, why not point us to some poetry we can edit?

[mindwaves]

Originally Posted by Ulrich Kinbote

You were had by a vanity press.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_publisher

I didn't fall for any scam or the like. I do believe it got published. And although it is not clearly stated in my post, I did not pay for the book. I only gave them my permission for it to be published.

[Salty]

http://pastoralwannabe.blogspot.com/...dark-poem.html
http://pastoralwannabe.blogspot.com/2006/05/gomer.html
http://pastoralwannabe.blogspot.com/...f-my-best.html

You can start with those.

[Millennium]

I've never been published, but I've never tried, either. I have quite a few friends who've been published, but not any poets that I know of. Most of them write fiction. From what little I know of their experiences, all I can do is echo what the others have said: everyone gets rejected many times before they ever really get their first bite. Don't take it personally.

[Salty]

I've been playing in my head with the idea of a fiction but heavily based on real events book, with a more literary/poetic feel to it. The problem is I already have all this poetry. Though I guess it would make sense to write a fiction book, or two, become super successful at that and speaking and stuff... then maybe people would be interested in my poetry! Bwhaaha!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

http://pastoralwannabe.blogspot.com/...dark-poem.html
http://pastoralwannabe.blogspot.com/2006/05/gomer.html
http://pastoralwannabe.blogspot.com/...f-my-best.html

You can start with those.

The first one (I liked this piece!):

The fake is turning my stomach

Isn't the expression "making my stomach turn"? Maybe this is acceptable in poetry though, I have no idea. I did get your meaning here though...

It’s pages never open

What you've written here is "it is pages never open". Its is the one exception for the apostrophe indicating a possessive. This should read:

Its pages never open

Of the beating of Scripture,

I'm not sure I buy this. What exactly is scripture? Isn't it a fragment of the bible? But in this case, the whole book is being slammed into the pulpit. I'd simply yank this, I think it's pretty obvious what is being slammed anyway.

You profane the profound!
And leave it to drown!

An exclamation mark indicates a complete thought. This is fragmented, since you are trying to tack on the second line to the first thought. I'd replace the exclamation mark with a comma.

You rob Scripture!

What does this mean?

Till I fit,

There should be an apostrophe here to indicate an abbreviation... "'Till", I think is the correct way to do it.


Nice work!

[Salty]

Thanks, I'll fix the bits with the apostrophes in my home copies . And Scripture refers to either a section or the whole Bible. If you say I have a scripture for you that's like say 2nd Cor 3, if you say you are misusing Scripture you're implying that they are both misusing the specific passage but are also disrespecting all of Scripture which is all 66 books.

[Mithras]

My wife is a published writer and has been a reader for The New Yorker and the Paris Review.

The two best things you can do to improve your own poetry or fiction:

1. Read
Many wonderful, brilliant writers have lived, and you must not deprive yourself of the opportunity to learn from them.

2. Workshop
Let others read your stuff and offer candid feedback. It's painful but the most valuable thing to do.

[Salty]

Hmmm wonder where I could find a local workshop

[Mithras]

It's a good question, it really depends.

Probably for your first workshop you'd want something pretty structured, with a teacher/leader type. Maybe look in the local YMCA catalog, or even one of those 'Learning Annex' type places that put out a little booklet with all sorts of classes? Or at an actual university (a secular place would probably be a good idea, for the freedom of expression).

Another idea is attending and participating in some regular poetry open mic type events; you'll probably meet people who are enthusiastic about poetry and can link you up to whatever the local scene is like.

Eventually, if you find the right mix of people, you can have a peer-run workshop, though without a leader you really need the right mix of personalities.

Good luck, man, and have fun! Do post some more stuff here as soon as you're so willing.

[tavilach]

Salty, makes sure that not all your poems contain the phrase, "That said" .

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Mithras

It's a good question, it really depends.

Probably for your first workshop you'd want something pretty structured, with a teacher/leader type. Maybe look in the local YMCA catalog, or even one of those 'Learning Annex' type places that put out a little booklet with all sorts of classes? Or at an actual university (a secular place would probably be a good idea, for the freedom of expression).

Another idea is attending and participating in some regular poetry open mic type events; you'll probably meet people who are enthusiastic about poetry and can link you up to whatever the local scene is like.

Eventually, if you find the right mix of people, you can have a peer-run workshop, though without a leader you really need the right mix of personalities.

Good luck, man, and have fun! Do post some more stuff here as soon as you're so willing.

Thanks. I regularly post poetry to my blog (linked in my sig below). If you want you can leave comments I'd appreciate it.

[legacyb4]

I've had photos taken at the Tokyo Motor Show published in Car & Driver as well as for a C&D desktop calendar.

[Salty]

Oh for all that don't read my blog... haha... anyway, for everyone who isn't in the know, the magazine liked my article and are going to be publishing it on their website. I'll update ya when they publish it.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Salty

http://pastoralwannabe.blogspot.com/...dark-poem.html
http://pastoralwannabe.blogspot.com/2006/05/gomer.html
http://pastoralwannabe.blogspot.com/...f-my-best.html

You can start with those.

Okay Salty, ya know I love ya right? Dude, these are a mess. A right mess. They seem to kind of morph between short stories and poems and while their is some rhythm, it doesn't seem organic or natural. For example;

"Of chipmunks in the trees,
A break do give me please!"

Needs rhythm like this; "Of chipmunks in the trees, please! Seize an opportunity to bring me to my knees!"

You know, something more like white rap.

"Heretical hypocricy"? Not really very poetic at all.

Web design on the other hand? Cha-ching, bling and make that bank book sing! That my friend is your niche biotch and give that change a switch!

Thought I'd start the painful rejection off with a bang. I'm not even a writer, but you sir...
suck at poetry!!!

With a capital P-O and Egadz don't TRY that again!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Thought I'd start the painful rejection off with a bang. I'm not even a writer, but you sir...
suck at poetry!!!

With a capital P-O and Egadz don't TRY that again!

Is that really necessary? This is not constructive, but destructive. Why don't you just say that you didn't like his poems and leave it at that? Wouldn't that have gotten the same point across?

If you do love him like you say you do, how about a little sensitivity?

[Mithras]

Ever heard of the criticism sandwich, ebuddy?

[ebuddy]

C'mon you guys the whole thing was tongue in cheek.

How much do you wanna bet Salty's not crying about it? He was told to brace for rejection. I gave him the first lesson. People in the know told him there's no money in it. Publishers won't publish it.

I see his web design and think to myself, now if I had the necessity and wherewithall I'd have him on my design staff yesterday.

Sometimes the brutal honesty is more compassionate than sandwiching BS to make yourselves feel "helpful".