[Benton]

Apple's iBook proposal was shunted aside for Dell's lower bid and now the Dells come home to roost.
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-georg...01/1666543.htm

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Benton

Apple's iBook proposal was shunted aside for Dell's lower bid and now the Dells come home to roost.
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-georg...01/1666543.htm

Cool-- iBook Riot!

Actually, that's a bummer. I had to spend two hours using XP today, and it blew chunks.

[Cody Dawg]

Maybe Cobb county Georgia students speak Hindi? They'll be able to converse with "technical support" when they call India several times a week for support.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Maybe Cobb county Georgia students speak Hindi? They'll be able to converse with "technical support" when they call India several times a week for support.

Apple is on board with India also:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...62,curpg-1.cms

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/03...ndia/index.php

When are you starting your Hindi lessons?

[d4nth3m4n]

wonder if the dells will have stickers on them saying that XP is just a theory....

[Cody Dawg]

So, Apple is sticking it to their employees here in North America?

Pretty sad.

to Apple for that.

Apple is just another Intel clone now.

[zmcgill]

That's about $1250/laptop, not including training and such.

"Our teachers are deserving of the best teaching tools that we can provide them," said Fred Sanderson, Cobb County Public Schools superintendent.

Best? Or company with the lowest bid?

From the bottom of the article:

About Dell

Dell Inc. (NASDAQELL) listens to customers and delivers innovative technology and services they trust and value. Uniquely enabled by its direct business model, Dell sells more systems globally than any computer company, placing it No. 25 on the Fortune 500.

Sales pitch, anyone?

[James L]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

Sales pitch, anyone?

All companies have one of those. Here is Apple's that is found at the bottom of most of the press releases they put out:

Originally Posted by SteveJobsSalesPitch

Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s with the Apple II and reinvented the personal computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Today, Apple continues to lead the industry in innovation with its award-winning desktop and notebook computers, OS X operating system, and iLife and professional applications. Apple is also spearheading the digital music revolution with its iPod portable music players and iTunes online.

[greenamp]

So when is the auction?

[olePigeon]

That was for the laptops. Meanwhile Symantec and Webroot are lined up with contracts of their own. An MCSE will poke his head around and notice the Windows 2003 server... tack another few tens of thousands of dollars in CAL licenses.

Oh yeah, it's way cheaper than the MacBooks that can also run Windows.

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

wonder if the dells will have stickers on them saying that XP is just a theory....

Brilliant!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

wonder if the dells will have stickers on them saying that Vista is just a theory....

Fixed to be more relevant.

[Eug Wanker]

Meh. They should get rid of the laptop program altogether IMO.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Fixed to be more relevant.

hahahaha

vista is teh awesome! people still use windows 98 now, vista will take 3 years just to gain a foothold just like XP did. by then, apple will hopefully blaze some new tech innovation by then.

[screamingFit]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Meh. They should get rid of the laptop program altogether IMO.

Couldn't agree more.

Seems the only thing computers are teaching children is horrific grammar and how to be cam-sluts. I really don't understand the thinking that for students to be competitive in the future workplace, they need to know how to use MS Office and Windows. Please. If a kid is smart enough, they can figure it out in an afternoon. Those that want to be techies in the future probably already have a computer at home and know more than anyone at the school could teach them. Plus, from what I've seen of the computer proficiency where I work, how to run Windows does not an executive make. People are bringing home over $200k a year and they still don't know how to copy a file from what directory to another.

My opinion is that if the administration is so hell bent on getting kids computers, they should setup deals with major manufacturers and give a $500 voucher for the family of the student to spend on a computer for the home. I would think that would serve a few purposes - get a kid a computer that they "need", get a kid a computer that actually want and save the district a ton of money.

[Cody Dawg]

Good points, Fit.

Except that Apple doesn't give students - grade school, middle school, or high school students - any discounts.

That was another thread altogether.

[ghporter]

Why does everyone automatically assume that all non-Macs will immediately give their users problems? Particularly when they're part of a major, well-managed (supposedly) centrally administered program?

I have a Dell laptop that has given me ZERO problems since I got it about 3 1/2 years ago. I've traveled with it in airplanes (C-130s are NOT friendly to laptops), aboard ships, and in cars all over the place and spent the last year going back and forth to class with me every day. Since I know how easy it is to goof a computer up, I'm impressed with how well this one has handled the abuse I've given it.

I will also point out that it is almost always the USER that (to use the technical term) goobers up a PC. In a centrally managed and administered program, the administrator should have every possible route for mischief locked up tight-much the same way that most iBook school programs are set up. You can do this with Windows very easily.

Most people's resistance to laptop programs seems to focus on what the student might be doing with the laptop instead of school work. I've had a number of college classmates sitting around me doing anything but studying during HARD lecture classes, so I understand what these folks mean. But if the computer does not have the connectivity to surf and chat, does not give the user the ability to install crap and malware, and is locked down to the basics of doing school work, how can the student do anything BUT school work with it?

[Eug Wanker]

I'm still convinced that high school students shouldn't even be allowed to use calculators (or an abacus for that matter) in most of their math classes.

[greenamp]

When I was your age, I had to walk 10 miles uphill through snow just to get to school.

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by James L

Apple is on board with India also:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...62,curpg-1.cms

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/03...ndia/index.php

When are you starting your Hindi lessons?

I heard they pulled out.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...ow/1611960.cms

I also heard pulling out is 100% effective

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by greenamp

When I was your age, I had to walk 10 miles uphill BOTH WAYS through snow just to get to school.

fixed.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by greenamp

When I was your age, I had to walk 10 miles uphill through snow just to get to school.

I knew somebody was going to post this. Anyways, it's sad when high school grads can't figure out basic multiplication and division without resorting to a calculator.

[Rumor]

If you call Dell tech support and demand to speak to a sup, eventually you will get someone in Texas. Depending on thier accent, it's not always better than Hindi though.

[mitchell_pgh]

I guess I would rather see a program where every household with a school aged person would get a computer... and they could have been eMacs (well, not now... but you know what I'm saying)

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I guess I would rather see a program where every household with a school aged person would get a computer... and they could have been eMacs (well, not now... but you know what I'm saying)

Apple still sells eMacs.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Apple still sells eMacs.

Now if only Apple could sell one for $500 with a core duo.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

Couldn't agree more.

Seems the only thing computers are teaching children is horrific grammar and how to be cam-sluts. I really don't understand the thinking that for students to be competitive in the future workplace, they need to know how to use MS Office and Windows.

The state of North Carolina Dept. of Public Instruction mandates that all students by the 8th grade know how to perform basic word processing, spreadsheet, email, and database functions.

Yes, they seriously test 8th graders on copy/paste, bold/italic/underline, left/center/right align, pushing cells around and formulae, and sorting and filtering databases.

http://ncdesk.ncsu.edu/ncdesk/ is the site of the test app. It's a java application and I helped them find some of the bugs in the Mac version. Go ahead. Download it. It works in a practice mode.

[Cody Dawg]

Apple pulled out of India? SOMEONE LISTENS AT APPLE!



I love you more than ever, Apple.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by greenamp

When I was your age, I had to walk 10 miles uphill through snow just to get to school.

Me too. Both ways. All year long. While carrying firewood and watching out for bears and wolves.

I see Eug's point about math-if you can't do the basic operations manually, you can't demonstrate you understand the underlying mathematics. And it's easy to set up the problems so that they require little arithmetic manipulation (and thus little computing time) but still demonstrate mastery of the point being measured.

When my son started doing algebra, his assignments did not consist of "problems." They were all "equations." Now can someone please show me how what I would call a "story problem" is by itself an "equation?" <hums softly to himself for about 30 seconds> I didn't think so. It was (and is) a stupid way to "boost the child's ego" when dealing with "difficult and complex subjects" like algebra. Sorry, but algebra is SIMPLE!!! It's arithmatic performed on both sides on an equality (or even an inequality) with one or more components that are not presented numerically.

Anyone who can balance a checkbook can do algebra WELL; if you can count to 10 and not make messes indoors you should be able to do most basic algebra in your head. But it's presented as if it's difficult because teachers that introduce it are often "challenged" by it-they don't feel good about it so they make their students feel bad about it. A light went on in my head before I was introduced to algebra when I saw an article on mathematics in the World Book Encyclopedia-it presented algebra as a see-saw, with the equal sign in the middle. Whatever you do on one side, you must do on the other to keep it balanced. That's all it took.

No wonder we're running into issues with poor science education; you can't do much more than manually sweep streets without at least some mathematics, and we're systematically scaring kids away from even simple math.

pant...pant... Ok, rant's over. Sorry about that.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Rumor

If you call Dell tech support and demand to speak to a sup, eventually you will get someone in Texas. Depending on thier accent, it's not always better than Hindi though.

Heyyyyyyyy.... Actually you'll get someone in the U.S., but not necessarily in Texas. Dell seems to have call centers in Tennessee (they have a plant in Memphis) and maybe even California.

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Apple pulled out of India? SOMEONE LISTENS AT APPLE!



I love you more than ever, Apple.

No, they fired 30 people in India.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by vmarks

The state of North Carolina Dept. of Public Instruction mandates that all students by the 8th grade know how to perform basic word processing, spreadsheet, email, and database functions.

Yes, they seriously test 8th graders on copy/paste, bold/italic/underline, left/center/right align, pushing cells around and formulae, and sorting and filtering databases.

http://ncdesk.ncsu.edu/ncdesk/ is the site of the test app. It's a java application and I helped them find some of the bugs in the Mac version. Go ahead. Download it. It works in a practice mode.

My son had to take a "basic computer skills" course to graduate high school last year. It was on the level of "this is a mouse-can you all say 'mouse?'" He tested out of it (without ANY effort) and got into a webmastering course instead. His college also has this requirement-with basically the same curriculum; he had to get specific proof that he'd tested out of the high school "computers for kids who were raised in a cave" course in order to take an intro programming course this fall. Sheesh!

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by ghporter

My son had to take a "basic computer skills" course to graduate high school last year. It was on the level of "this is a mouse-can you all say 'mouse?'" He tested out of it (without ANY effort) and got into a webmastering course instead. His college also has this requirement-with basically the same curriculum; he had to get specific proof that he'd tested out of the high school "computers for kids who were raised in a cave" course in order to take an intro programming course this fall. Sheesh!

I think these "fundamental computer skills" tests are a good thing. If you are going into the workforce after high school or entering into college without these skills, you are going to have serious problems.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

I think these "fundamental computer skills" tests are a good thing. If you are going into the workforce after high school or entering into college without these skills, you are going to have serious problems.

I agree. But this school system starts teaching kids basic computer skills in GRADE SCHOOL. By 6th grade they should all be able to sleep through this course and get an A. You handle newly arrived students with catch up and remedial courses, not by making all high school students take the same stuff they took in grade school and middle school. After all the "college preparation" focus in today's high schools, how can they expect a kid to get to his senior year without basic computer skills? That's my point, really.

[hayesk]

The problem is basic computer skills can be taught in about a month or two. Parents and administrators lose sight of this fact because they never had this education when they were in school. Parents and administrators forget that we put computers in schools to help teach math, social interaction, etc., - you know, actual subjects. Remember, computers are a learning tool like a text book, not the subject itself.

For that, we should be putting in the tool that costs the least to maintain, and is the most effective at teaching actual subjects.

Apple would be a lock if people would remember that and stopped listening to IT people who are either trying to save their own jobs or are ignorant of anything non-MS.

[Cody Dawg]

MindFad, do you READ?

BANGALORE: The company that redefined the way we listen to music has decided to call it quits in India.

Isn't "calling it quits in India" the same as pulling out?

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

MindFad, do you READ?





Isn't "calling it quits in India" the same as pulling out?

Apparently I misread between the article and Slashdot post this morning and confused them in my tiny brain. It is obvious that I do not READ and should have been a first trimester abortion.

[d4nth3m4n]

Florida Florida Florida.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by hayesk

The problem is basic computer skills can be taught in about a month or two. Parents and administrators lose sight of this fact because they never had this education when they were in school. Parents and administrators forget that we put computers in schools to help teach math, social interaction, etc., - you know, actual subjects. Remember, computers are a learning tool like a text book, not the subject itself.

For that, we should be putting in the tool that costs the least to maintain, and is the most effective at teaching actual subjects.

Apple would be a lock if people would remember that and stopped listening to IT people who are either trying to save their own jobs or are ignorant of anything non-MS.

On the concepts of "computers in the schools to help teach math... actual subjects" and "IT people who are trying to save their own jobs" :

1) the school where I have been a teacher for the past few years is eliminating my role as computer teacher and making math/english/history/science teachers do the computer teaching. That's right: Teachers with no computing experience at all will be doing the computer teaching.

Bye bye to my project planning through movie making course. Bye bye to my linux setup and administration that leads to designing the school website (last years was built around a modified drupal. This years was done with wordpress. The principal saw fit to buy for an exhorbitant fee what he'd been getting from students for free.) Bye bye to teaching python scripting. Bye bye to teaching yearbook and newspaper design with InDesign.

2) With the elimination of that job, they realized they would still need IT services. Currently it's an iBook lab with OS X Server, Linux servers, and a few Windows client machines. I was asked to bid on this "new" position that had been mine for the past few years as well. I and two other providers bid, and they have accepted none of the bids.

You know what? On to bigger and better things. I'm not bothered.

What really bugs me most of all is that the administration has ended what I see as a valuable set of academic experiences for the students.

That's right: On to bigger and better things.

[besson3c]

In my opinion, if a school is going to be purchasing any computer gear, it should be all about cheap hardware running open source software (including Linux).

It's f-ing ridiculous that are tax dollars go towards buying copies of Office and Windows, but particularly Office.

[vmarks]

I had OpenOffice on the Linux machines and on 90% of the Windows machines. The principal was led to believe by IT professionals elsewhere that in order to run open source software that we needed to have 50 programmers on staff to make it work.

When I pointed out that Detroit public schools do a large distribution of OpenOffice and brought up the Massachusetts stories from last year, it was irrelevent.

What I have found is that committed MS Office users are loyal, and if a single icon on the toolbar is out of place compared with MS Office, then it is substandard and unacceptable.

Except when MS changes placement of icons in the toolbar from one revision to the next. That's acceptable.



To MS' credit, Excel is far faster than OpenOffice Calc at handling large numbers of cells for graphing. The Java is painfully slow.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I had OpenOffice on the Linux machines and on 90% of the Windows machines. The principal was led to believe by IT professionals elsewhere that in order to run open source software that we needed to have 50 programmers on staff to make it work.

When I pointed out that Detroit public schools do a large distribution of OpenOffice and brought up the Massachusetts stories from last year, it was irrelevent.

What I have found is that committed MS Office users are loyal, and if a single icon on the toolbar is out of place compared with MS Office, then it is substandard and unacceptable.

Except when MS changes placement of icons in the toolbar from one revision to the next. That's acceptable.



To MS' credit, Excel is far faster than OpenOffice Calc at handling large numbers of cells for graphing. The Java is painfully slow.

Here here!

A local high school here in Indiana runs OpenOffice, and has saved thousands of dollars in doing so. For typing up papers, it is more than acceptable. It's a decent app, and people have not been complaining about it.

Again, it's a shame that our tax dollars are paying for copies of Office within the schools so that students can do what you've basically been able to do with any word processor for years. Utter and complete waste of money.

Not only are several schools in the US starting to come around, but there are tons of institutions in other countries that are all over open source too.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by vmarks

On the concepts of "computers in the schools to help teach math... actual subjects" and "IT people who are trying to save their own jobs" :

1) the school where I have been a teacher for the past few years is eliminating my role as computer teacher and making math/english/history/science teachers do the computer teaching. That's right: Teachers with no computing experience at all will be doing the computer teaching.

Bye bye to my project planning through movie making course. Bye bye to my linux setup and administration that leads to designing the school website (last years was built around a modified drupal. This years was done with wordpress. The principal saw fit to buy for an exhorbitant fee what he'd been getting from students for free.) Bye bye to teaching python scripting. Bye bye to teaching yearbook and newspaper design with InDesign.

2) With the elimination of that job, they realized they would still need IT services. Currently it's an iBook lab with OS X Server, Linux servers, and a few Windows client machines. I was asked to bid on this "new" position that had been mine for the past few years as well. I and two other providers bid, and they have accepted none of the bids.

You know what? On to bigger and better things. I'm not bothered.

What really bugs me most of all is that the administration has ended what I see as a valuable set of academic experiences for the students.

That's right: On to bigger and better things.

I get the feeling whenever I read anything by an educator that for some reason, from administrators right on up the food chain through school boards, on to the white house, that America is intent on "fixing" public schools with a sledge hammer. The teachers & students seem to be fighting a losing battle.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Except when MS changes placement of icons in the toolbar from one revision to the next. That's acceptable.

I think they'll be in icon heaven in the next Office. There aren't any menus anymore, everything's an icon.

[sabrejim]

The BossMan needs to teach that school board a lesson!

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by kaze0

The BossMan needs to teach that school board a lesson!

They won't learn anything, even after they write their first annual cheque for $15,000 to Microsoft. Then another annual $10,000 to Symantec. Then another annual $5,000 to Webroot. I'm just judging by the district I work at if it's any comparison (we only have 3 high schools), but they're going to be ponying up over $30,000 every single year to those three companies.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

They won't learn anything, even after they write their first annual cheque for $15,000 to Microsoft. Then another annual $10,000 to Symantec. Then another annual $5,000 to Webroot. I'm just judging by the district I work at if it's any comparison (we only have 3 high schools), but they're going to be ponying up over $30,000 every single year to those three companies.

Which is why the school boards should be jumping aboard the open source bandwagon. Right away, you have saved yourself $30,000 (using your numbers as a baseline). You could easily retrain your tech staff and/or hire new staff for this transition, and this one-time expense would be dwarfed by the reoccuring expenses of all of those software licenses.

Besides, once you have setup your Linux build, it will probably be far more stable and require less day-to-day attention as far as cleaning up turds than what you'd encounter within Windows.

[vmarks]

Besson: we were using ubuntu and edubuntu (ubuntu for education.)

You'd be surprised at the refusal of staff to learn something different. Just putting firefox and thunderbird on XP was a stretch for them.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Besson: we were using ubuntu and edubuntu (ubuntu for education.)

You'd be surprised at the refusal of staff to learn something different. Just putting firefox and thunderbird on XP was a stretch for them.

Yeah, Bloomington IN North High School is using Edubuntu too... Where are you at?