[besson3c]

China is aiming for 2.5% of their governmental spending to be in the sciences. There was an article in the NYTimes about Stephen Hawking's visit to China, and how hard the government is working to really develop their scientific communities. Unfortunately, here in the US the level of vibrant scientific conversation at the political level seems pretty flat right now. This seems to manifest in environmental debate, but that's a whole other conversation.

We have Brazil that is powering something like 70% of their energy on Ethanol - and this is the older technology based on corn (apparently a new form is in the works that will provide far more energy and promise). Brazil's government and school systems are also utilizing open source software and not only saving these institutions thousands/millions of taxpayer dollars, but supporting where arguably the majority of the innovation is occurring in the software industry right now.

We've heard a lot about India's ambitions already. While we've heard horror stories about support centers, and while there is some debate about the quality of their product, clearly they have lofty ambitions as well.


My point is this...

I'm not saying that America is not the leader in technology, but to even question this years ago would have been unheard of. It seems that things are changing, and there will be a change of guard before too long.

America has already given up the lead in Electronics to Asia. There is little of interest going on in our auto industry right now. We have some of the best schools in the world, but can we sustain this? Ditto for our medical technology?

I don't know the answers to all of these questions, but what do you think, have things been changing lately? Do you buy into the Thomas Friedman flat Earth theory, which I believe is basically what we're talking about here? (haven't read the book yet though)

[- - e r i k - -]

Well, I'll say it then: America is far from the leader in technology. Scandinavian and Asian countries has had it long beat.

[Hawkeye_a]

The Aircraft, automobile, transistor, integrated circuit, to thebst of my knowledge were developed in the U.S. When another nation comes up with an invention as groundbreaking as the ones foremntioned thats when you can make that claim, not earlier.

China, Scandanavia, etc...might have greater adoption rates for mostly American innovations, but that can be easily attributed to population and wealth.

Thats not to discount the contributions made by the rest of the world...cause there have been many, just not as profound or influential as the ones i mentioned above.

Cheers

[- - e r i k - -]

The aircraft, automobile, transistor, integrated circuit etc. are hardly the technical edge now are they? This is the discussion. There are some technical edges still where America are leading, notably in human genome research. But in everyday technology, like say broadband adoption and cell phones America is way behind.

[©öñFü$íóÑ]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

There are some technical edges still where America are leading, notably in human genome research. But in everyday technology, like say broadband adoption and cell phones America is way behind.

The reason why i think that's so is (and this is just what i think).... that America was the test-bed of all the prototypes. With no 'upgradability', if you will, in mind. We all started out with dial-up because it was already there. Relatively 'new' cities in Europe that were just building had a chance to take advantage of all the better technologies because they had the capacity to implement them with little or no obstruction. In this case, it really has a lot to do with infrastructure more than anything........ well....... and affordability. As for broadband users...... the only reason they have cable internet was because their place was already wired for cable TV...... i guess.... My house was never wired for cable so i couldn't get it as easily as the other guy would have.... i'd have to incur an extra cost.

Cell phones? nearly everyone i meet on the street has a cell phone or at least knows how to use one. But probably the only reason anyone wouldn't have one is because they can't afford the service for it.

If America wants to get back on top or remain in whatever it's leading in, i think it is the part of the employers and the big-name corporations to do something to improve the education system from which they're getting all their new hires from. It's kind of like taking care of your own organic garden. If all you do is pick all the ripe fruits and flowers but don't give a damn to care for it, you'll eventually end up with nothing left. But if you nurture what you have, you'll get the quality you're looking for. Garbage in, garbage out....... invest in, higher return on investment (hopefully).....

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

The aircraft, automobile, transistor, integrated circuit etc. are hardly the technical edge now are they? This is the discussion. There are some technical edges still where America are leading, notably in human genome research. But in everyday technology, like say broadband adoption and cell phones America is way behind.

Alright.... those were of the 20th century...... Which nation came up with electricity, the light bulb, the telephone, etc. now-a-days, which nation is leading in processor design, geneome research(like you mentioned), space exploration, underwater exploration, military research, etc.... broadband and cell phone adoption rates can hardly be attributed to a more technologically advanced society.

Its when someone else comes up with an invention/innovation worth mentioning with the likes of telephones, light bulbs, aircrafts, Integrated Circuits and landing a man on the moon that one can start to wonder if America has lost it's edge. But that of course, is just my opinion.

[Mastrap]

The car, powered by the internal combustion engine, was developed in Germany. Just sayin'

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Alright.... those were of the 20th century...... Which nation came up with electricity, the light bulb, the telephone, etc. now-a-days, which nation is leading in processor design, geneome research(like you mentioned), space exploration, underwater exploration, military research, etc.... broadband and cell phone adoption rates can hardly be attributed to a more technologically advanced society.

Its when someone else comes up with an invention/innovation worth mentioning with the likes of telephones, light bulbs, aircrafts, Integrated Circuits and landing a man on the moon that one can start to wonder if America has lost it's edge. But that of course, is just my opinion.

You'll notice that the subject says "on the verge of". The light bulb and electricity and such are irrelevant to this discussion, I'm not disputing that America has held the technical edge for years. I'm just wondering whether this is starting to shift now.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Which nation came up with electricity

Technically, England although other European nations were instrumental in the development. William Gilbert (England), Otto von Guericke (Germany), Du Fay (France) and Stephen Gray (England) are considered the pioneers of electricity.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

the light bulb

Humphry Davy (England) in 1800

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

the telephone

Not really clear. Many different people have all been credited with inventing the telephone. Most likely, these three came up with it around the same time - Antonio Meucci (Italy), Johann Philipp Reis (Germany) and Alexander Graham Bell (USA) are some of the many credited with the invention.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

the integrated circuit

Conceived by Geoffrey W.A. Dummer (England)

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Troll

Technically, England although other European nations were instrumental in the development. William Gilbert (England), Otto von Guericke (Germany), Du Fay (France) and Stephen Gray (England) are considered the pioneers of electricity.

Humphry Davy (England) in 1800
Not really clear. Many different people have all been credited with inventing the telephone. Most likely, these three came up with it around the same time - Antonio Meucci (Italy), Johann Philipp Reis (Germany) and Alexander Graham Bell (USA) are some of the many credited with the invention.

Conceived by Geoffrey W.A. Dummer (England)

Alexander Graham Bell was supposedly born in Brantford, Ontario.

[Kevin]

When is Canada gonna catch up?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Troll

Technically, England although other European nations were instrumental in the development. William Gilbert (England), Otto von Guericke (Germany), Du Fay (France) and Stephen Gray (England) are considered the pioneers of electricity.

Humphry Davy (England) in 1800
Not really clear. Many different people have all been credited with inventing the telephone. Most likely, these three came up with it around the same time - Antonio Meucci (Italy), Johann Philipp Reis (Germany) and Alexander Graham Bell (USA) are some of the many credited with the invention.

Conceived by Geoffrey W.A. Dummer (England)

Oh ok, well in that case i guess all my information on the subject is wrong, and therefore my opinion irrelevant.

Cheers

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Well, I'll say it then: America is far from the leader in technology. Scandinavian and Asian countries has had it long beat.

Depends, mass producing it? Sure. Coming up with original ideas on their own? No.

[Troll]

I wasn't trying to be smart. I think it's interesting that we think that Edison invented the light bulb when he wasn't the first to do it. Why is that? Probably because what the Americans were good at wasn't theorising the technology. It was DOING what others theorised about.

I don't think being on the cutting edge of technology is all it's cut ( ) up to be.What the US excelled at was adapting technology. Radar and integrated circuits are two good examples of technology that the Europeans rejected as worthless but Americans developed. What's more important is having the balls to invest in developing technologies irrespective of where they come from. That seems to happen more when countries are developing than when they're developed. China and Japan have shown this too. They have developed other people's technologies more than invent their own. I think the US is possibly where England was in the 1800's. It invents technologies that other countries develop. The US comes up with a theory or even a product and the Asians make it better and smaller. That's perhaps because the US is all growed up and so now assumes the role England had in the 19th century.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Troll

I wasn't trying to be smart. I think it's interesting that we think that Edison invented the light bulb when he wasn't the first to do it. Why is that? Probably because what the Americans were good at wasn't theorising the technology. It was DOING what others theorised about.

I don't think being on the cutting edge of technology is all it's cut ( ) up to be.What the US excelled at was adapting technology. Radar and integrated circuits are two good examples of technology that the Europeans rejected as worthless but Americans developed. What's more important is having the balls to invest in developing technologies irrespective of where they come from. That seems to happen more when countries are developing than when they're developed. China and Japan have shown this too. They have developed other people's technologies more than invent their own. I think the US is possibly where England was in the 1800's. It invents technologies that other countries develop. The US comes up with a theory or even a product and the Asians make it better and smaller. That's perhaps because the US is all growed up and so now assumes the role England had in the 19th century.

Very interesting post Troll... where do you see forsee the US in the future? Will the US continue to come up with theories to products, or are things changing?

I always perceived the exact opposite, that the US was the big funders and investors behind technology, but not the people coming up with theories.

[Hawkeye_a]

Oh i wasnt being sarcastic. i actualy meant that. from what i learned and heard (as opposed to read), i was under the impression that everything i mentioned was created by someone in America. If you or anyone has deeper knowledge in the field by all means do share.

I do realize that ever innovator and inventor in any time period and anwhere in the world stands on the shoulders of giants who came before. so yeah.....

To me the bleading edge of technological acheivment is space travel, and it is my opinion that the Americans more than anyone else have nailed it. Broadband adoption, cell phones, etc...is....in comparison, at least to me, chump change.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Very interesting post Troll... where do you see forsee the US in the future? Will the US continue to come up with theories to products, or are things changing?

All one has to do is a little research besson. It's still going on.

I always perceived the exact opposite, that the US was the big funders and investors behind technology, but not the people coming up with theories.

Well I hope it wasn't anything you read. Because if it was, you need to throw that particular book away.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Very interesting post Troll... where do you see forsee the US in the future? Will the US continue to come up with theories to products, or are things changing?

I always perceived the exact opposite, that the US was the big funders and investors behind technology, but not the people coming up with theories.

I think that today the US has a healthy share of theoretical development of technology. There are fields where practically all of the invention comes out of the US.

I think it's inevitable that companies (and countries by extension) start out basically copying others and then abandon copying and become inventors. Once their products are as good as those they're copying, they need to innovate to keep selling the volumes. So they invest in research which costs money and they come up with new technology and it's more expensive to cover R&D. Then they become more niche market because across the pond, a company in a developing country is copying the technology and not spending anything on research. With time the inventors specialise in invention and give up completely on applying the theory because others can do the application cheaper and better than they can. I think that's what's happening to the US too. The US is an ideas factory today.

[Hawkeye_a]

This is where political,social and economic factors come into play. The foundation of the US (the constitution) allows for innovation....China, on the other hand.....well.....look at it.

Although we hate to admit it, im sure we've all thought about it....theyre the slaves of the modern world. Technologically they have always played catchup, wheter it be in transport, I.T., space exploration, etc. The only thing they got going for them at the moment is their cheap labour costs, and once the people feel theyve had enough (which in all honest will happen eventually)....they wont even have that. There isnt much incentive to develop the next big thing in China imo.

If anything....Japan, Europe or even Australia have the right political, social and economic factors to nurture the next big thing. Thats just my opinion.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

This is where political,social and economic factors come into play. The foundation of the US (the constitution) allows for innovation....China, on the other hand.....well.....look at it.

Well, China does have a free market and a strong funding in the Sciences... I wouldn't necessarily disregard them.

[Dork.]

America definitely has the entreperneurial spirit, or at least had it throughout its history -- just look at the number of industries where there is real competition from a number of companies in the U.S., then look at the same industry in other countries -- odds are, there's only one company engaged in that industry in that country, and their laws tend to insulate them from foreign competiton. (This is not universally the case, of course.) But the very structure that has allowed this entrepreneurship may serve to negate this advantage in the future, for two reasons: (Warning: sweeping generalizations ahead!)

1) The smaller, energetic entrepreneurs who took legitimate risks (and profited from them) have turned into large, multinational conglomerates who look for the "quick fix" instead of engage in serious research for the next big thing. They spend way too much energy protecting their current profit streams and not nearly enough finding the next one. Or, they find the Next Big Thing, but since it has the potential to cannibalize their current market they deliberately try to obfuscate it, using IP laws to prevent competitors from coming to market with technology they have no intention of selling, but only want to bury. Tight IP laws in this country are going to contribute to our technological decline, as more Big Things are developed in countries that value new ideas over old ones.

2) The state of science and technology education here has gone downhill. It's been my experience that elementary school teachers are forced to spend way too much time teaching for the sake of getting their students to pass the next standardized test then they do trying to spark a student's interest in the sciences. There are some school districts who are even phasing out High School Physics and Chemistry labs, out of liability concerns (and the notion that Chem Lab gives kids access to potentially dangerous chemicals like Dihydrogen monoxide. )

What this means is that even if we have the best Universities for Science and Technology, fewer of our own students gain the motivation to attend. As we educate more people from Other Places that encourage science and technology in schools, we'll find that the people who find the Next Big Thing come from these places. And even if they do their work for an American company to start out, odds are they'll take what they learned about American entrepreneurship back home (before they get sucked in to the Big Corporate Nothing) and create the Next Big Thing there. They may even work from within to make their countries more amenable to technological entrepreneurship....

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork.

America definitely has the entreperneurial spirit, or at least had it throughout its history -- just look at the number of industries where there is real competition from a number of companies in the U.S., then look at the same industry in other countries -- odds are, there's only one company engaged in that industry in that country, and their laws tend to insulate them from foreign competiton. (This is not universally the case, of course.) But the very structure that has allowed this entrepreneurship may serve to negate this advantage in the future, for two reasons: (Warning: sweeping generalizations ahead!)

1) The smaller, energetic entrepreneurs who took legitimate risks (and profited from them) have turned into large, multinational conglomerates who look for the "quick fix" instead of engage in serious research for the next big thing. They spend way too much energy protecting their current profit streams and not nearly enough finding the next one. Or, they find the Next Big Thing, but since it has the potential to cannibalize their current market they deliberately try to obfuscate it, using IP laws to prevent competitors from coming to market with technology they have no intention of selling, but only want to bury. Tight IP laws in this country are going to contribute to our technological decline, as more Big Things are developed in countries that value new ideas over old ones.

2) The state of science and technology education here has gone downhill. It's been my experience that elementary school teachers are forced to spend way too much time teaching for the sake of getting their students to pass the next standardized test then they do trying to spark a student's interest in the sciences. There are some school districts who are even phasing out High School Physics and Chemistry labs, out of liability concerns (and the notion that Chem Lab gives kids access to potentially dangerous chemicals like Dihydrogen monoxide. )

What this means is that even if we have the best Universities for Science and Technology, fewer of our own students gain the motivation to attend. As we educate more people from Other Places that encourage science and technology in schools, we'll find that the people who find the Next Big Thing come from these places. And even if they do their work for an American company to start out, odds are they'll take what they learned about American entrepreneurship back home (before they get sucked in to the Big Corporate Nothing) and create the Next Big Thing there. They may even work from within to make their countries more amenable to technological entrepreneurship....

Very interesting thoughts Dork... thanks! I've definitely sensed your second point, but of course I don't have an accurate gauge to actually prove this.

I'd add to your first point that the workplace becoming more and more global, the increase in outsourcing, etc. also must affect entrepreneurship. At some point, wouldn't it be easier to startup and get a foot hold in another country where the costs would be lower?

[Kevin]

SO besson, what is Canada doing in this field? You always seem so concerned with America.

What about Canada?

[besson3c]

What ever happened with the Russian space program? Does it still exist? Did it fold? Will they start it back up again?

Is the US program getting the funding it needs?

[olePigeon]

It still kinda exists, but it's mostly funded by the U.S. They have some of the most brilliant people over there, but they can't live the U.S. due to security concerns.