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forkies · Jun 28, 2006, 11:57 AM

Microsoft Cancels a Windows Feature

i love the casual attitude of the article's title.

Landos Mustache · Jun 28, 2006, 12:00 PM

"Some of the WinFS technology will be rolled into the next version of Microsoft's SQL database server, code-named Katmai'

Either way. Screw them.

goMac · Jun 28, 2006, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

"Some of the WinFS technology will be rolled into the next version of Microsoft's SQL database server, code-named Katmai'

What? They're going to roll up WinFS in a Katamari?

Y3a · Jun 28, 2006, 12:45 PM

IS it just me...Or is it that MS just lacks the saavy, experienced programmers they had in days gone by. They don't seem to be able to program themselves out of a wet paper bag anymore.

olePigeon · Jun 28, 2006, 12:59 PM

I'm pretty sure WinFS was one of the "pillars of Windows Vista."

At least they got the pretty GUI working.

Chuckit · Jun 28, 2006, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Y3a

IS it just me...Or is it that MS just lacks the saavy, experienced programmers they had in days gone by. They don't seem to be able to program themselves out of a wet paper bag anymore.

I'm not sure they ever had savvy, experienced programmers. Though they do seem even less capable than usual nowadays.

lpkmckenna · Jun 28, 2006, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Y3a

IS it just me...Or is it that MS just lacks the saavy, experienced programmers they had in days gone by. They don't seem to be able to program themselves out of a wet paper bag anymore.

Actually, Microsoft has some of the brightest programmers around working there. It is the management level that are completely clueless.

If your officers are incompetent, it doesn't matter how good your soldiers are.

Chuckit · Jun 28, 2006, 01:27 PM

I've always been under the impression that the brightest programmers would know to avoid Microshaft like the plague because, as you said, their management is terrible.

goMac · Jun 28, 2006, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I've always been under the impression that the brightest programmers would know to avoid Microshaft like the plague because, as you said, their management is terrible.

Agreed. I've been talking about this with my boss (we're both looking at different jobs). Microsoft is known to have very smart engineers, better working conditions than Apple, and much better cost of living than Apple, along with better benefits than Apple. But, Microsoft's management has a much higher incompetence level than Apple's management.

Landos Mustache · Jun 28, 2006, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Actually, Microsoft has some of the brightest programmers around working there. It is the management level that are completely clueless.

I dunno bout that. I mean all their apps are bloated and full of security holes and that isn't just the management's fault.

production_coordinator · Jun 28, 2006, 01:58 PM

IMHO, Microsoft is just being pulled in too many directions. Backwards compatibility is one of their major "gotcha's"

When OS X breaks an application, I've been trained to look at the developer and say "fix it"

When Windows breaks an application, their user base has been trained to say "Windows is broken" [enter rage mode]

I'm not saying Apple/Microsoft is to blame... but I feel OS X users are MUCH more flexible regarding upgrade strategies.

production_coordinator · Jun 28, 2006, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

I dunno bout that. I mean all their apps are bloated and full of security holes and that isn't just the management's fault.

Having been a designer... I would guess programing could be similar. When designing, if your client is demanding the moon and the stars while pulling you in too many directions... even I've been known to output some crap.

Being too focused on delivering a project "on schedule" as compared to "most complete" can cause major problems. I once talked to a Microsoft programmer and he said some of the things they have to do regarding backwards computability are simply crazy.

::maroma:: · Jun 28, 2006, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Actually, Microsoft has some of the brightest programmers around working there. It is the management level that are completely clueless.

If your officers are incompetent, it doesn't matter how good your soldiers are.

This is exactly true. I know someone very well who is a programmer for MS. He is (or was as of now) working on WinFS. He's one of the smartest, sharpest programmers I've ever known. I talk to him all the time about his job and he tells me the same thing over and over. Management is completely screwed up, and it hinders his job to the point where he thought they would end up strangling the whole project. And guess what, he was right. Bye bye WinFS. And I have a feeling that my friend will be looking at the folks over at Google (who have already approached him).

MS does have great programmers. But MS is a juggernaught. And a company that size is bound to be riddled with management issues. Its just too bad for MS that the management cant get their heads out of their asses for the biggest launch in MS's history (Vista, new Office and Games for Windows initiative are all being launched at the same time).

And I too think its no coincidence that Gates left when he did. If I were in his shoes, I would see this disaster coming a mile away and get as far away from it as possible. He can't fix it. Its now out of control.

::maroma:: · Jun 28, 2006, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

I dunno bout that. I mean all their apps are bloated and full of security holes and that isn't just the management's fault.

I tend to disagree here. As production_coordinator said, a lot of the time the management plays a huge roll in the quality of the actual product. They can do this many ways, but the most consistent is the constant pressure to get something done under an impossible deadline with impossible expectations. This leads to programmers who are incredibly capable not being able to do what they are best at. They are forced to rush things which leads to things like bloat and lack of security.

I wouldn't say that its 100% management's fault, but I'm willing to bet that its about 80-90% management's fault.

Landos Mustache · Jun 28, 2006, 02:30 PM

MS might have good programmers but they have HORRIBLE software designers and usability experts.

production_coordinator · Jun 28, 2006, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

MS might have good programmers but they have HORRIBLE software designers and usability experts.

That again may not be the designers and usability experts. If management doesn't let those people do their jobs... or interferes. You get Windows XP.

Landos Mustache · Jun 28, 2006, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

That again may not be the designers and usability experts. If management doesn't let those people do their jobs... or interferes. You get Windows XP.

Well when I said Software designers I meant the designers. Whatever you call em.

hey!_Zeus · Jun 28, 2006, 03:23 PM

Heheh...they drop a feature and the price of the stock goes up.

production_coordinator · Jun 28, 2006, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by hey!_Zeus

Heheh...they drop a feature and the price of the stock goes up.

Actually, now would be a good time to buy their stock. They are going to have a marketing blitz coming up...

...and dump just before the release.

::maroma:: · Jun 28, 2006, 03:37 PM

On the subject of MS's bad management staff... I recall a thread a while back on these forums that had a link to a MS employee's blog (I believe he was a programmer). The blog had a huge discussion amongst the MS employees about how horrible the management of Vista has been thus far. It was a huge discussion with many many people ranting and raving about how bad they have been throughout the whole project.

I'm fairly certain that management isn't 100% to blame for all this Vista mess, but I am also fairly certain that they play a huge roll in it.

- - e r i k - - · Jun 28, 2006, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I'm pretty sure WinFS was one of the "pillars of Windows Vista."

At least they got the pretty GUI working.

It sure was.

lpkmckenna · Jun 29, 2006, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

MS might have good programmers but they have HORRIBLE software designers and usability experts.

Actually, I suspect the positions for design and usability have been empty since at least 1995.

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jun 29, 2006, 06:52 AM

Katmai? That was the Pentium III.

angelmb · Jun 29, 2006, 07:24 AM

I have improved the 'getting started' screen art, I hope MS likes it !

Gee4orce · Jun 29, 2006, 09:52 AM

If Vista ships, but lacks the features that make it 'Vista' - is it still Vista ?

Ever since the most recent of the long line of Vista postponements I've been saying that Vista will never ship. Looks like I might be right after all.

El Gato · Jun 29, 2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

On the subject of MS's bad management staff... I recall a thread a while back on these forums that had a link to a MS employee's blog (I believe he was a programmer). The blog had a huge discussion amongst the MS employees about how horrible the management of Vista has been thus far. It was a huge discussion with many many people ranting and raving about how bad they have been throughout the whole project.

I'm fairly certain that management isn't 100% to blame for all this Vista mess, but I am also fairly certain that they play a huge roll in it.

Mini-Microsoft

real · Jun 29, 2006, 02:21 PM

I understand that MS has to support the enterprise aspect of windows. Those companies cannot have downtime.
But for the comsumer market why not do a rewrite(kinda like OS X was to OS 9). Start again.

It just seems like they have no where to go with Windows. Windows Vista had all this seemly cool features that where going to be in it and now it looks like XP with a pretty interface

I am not a programmer and I know that this would be a huge amount of work but it does seem worth it, as Linux and OS X Can add, add, add to there feature set with (it seems) little problems.

real

production_coordinator · Jun 29, 2006, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by real

But for the comsumer market why not do a rewrite(kinda like OS X was to OS 9). Start again.

The thing is, OS X wasn't a rewrite. It had decades of history behind it. When Apple purchased NeXT, the OS was solid day one... the problem was... making it look and feel like a Mac... on Mac hardware... while implementing backwards compatibility.

::maroma:: · Jun 29, 2006, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

The thing is, OS X wasn't a rewrite. It had decades of history behind it. When Apple purchased NeXT, the OS was solid day one... the problem was... making it look and feel like a Mac... on Mac hardware... while implementing backwards compatibility.

Correct. And MS is not Apple. MS cannot just completely scrap their older code and start fresh. Mainly because Windows isn't just a consumer OS. In fact Windows has more sales for the business market than the consumer market. Forcing all those businesses to completely redo their entire systems in order to get a couple new features or to keep up with the latest software or security patches would be suicide for MS. They must build off of the old code, reworking it and implementing new features and improving on old ones slowly but surely. Their market share works against them here.

Chuckit · Jun 29, 2006, 05:30 PM

If they would splinter Windows in a maintenance-only version for entrenched businesses and a future-oriented version for actual use, I think they would actually get more productivity than they do trying to stuff 50 pounds of legacy **** into a three-pound bag.