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Kerrigan · Jul 7, 2006, 09:21 PM

I recently went hunting for a PC equivalent to OmniOutliner, and after Googling for a while the only thing I came up with was some ancient app from a company called "CaseSoft" which was more cumbersome and much uglier than OO.

I found out quickly that there are a bunch of other apps which I use on my Mac for which there are simply no decent Windows substitutes. For instance:
Adium
Pages
iWeb
Dictionary (I've yet to find a PC dictionary app which is so cleverly integrated as the one on OSX)
iSync

Frankly, for the things I do (writing papers in college, editing work, and surfing the net), apps for the Mac platform are a whole lot better anything on Windows.

MaxPower2k3 · Jul 7, 2006, 09:35 PM

Trillian is pretty good along the adium lines. Not sure about the others.

Kerrigan · Jul 7, 2006, 09:49 PM

I don't care much for Trillian, the standard interface looks bad IMO and I haven't seen any themes that I like. So I just use Gaim for simplicity's sake.

rickey939 · Jul 7, 2006, 10:15 PM

Yes.

Salty · Jul 7, 2006, 10:22 PM

I can't stand using Windows... the apps are just... they don't feel Mac like... guess that makes sense. They just feel dirty.

loki74 · Jul 7, 2006, 10:27 PM

well I think MS has their own equivalent (or at least something vaguely similar) to OmniGraffle... Visio or something like that...? (don't remember exactly).

Anyway, Mac software is superior, and logically so. Not only does Xcode/InterfaceBuilder totally kick ass (compared to the few IDEs ive used on Windows), but Apple's HI Guidlines are pretty solid and easy to follow.

The only time where Windows software is better than Mac software is when there is no Mac version of the app. (ie, many of Autodesk's products) or the Mac version is a crappy port of a natively windows version.

Kerrigan · Jul 7, 2006, 10:31 PM

They just feel dirty.

Seriously they do. A lot of 3rd party apps on Windows look as if they were made for Win 3.1.

olePigeon · Jul 7, 2006, 10:42 PM

What's gonna be funny is that Windows Vista is going to have a ton of different options for designing the interface for an application. You think non-standard GUIs in Windows apps was bad before? Just wait until Vista.

production_coordinator · Jul 7, 2006, 11:11 PM

I'm not saying we don't have ugly applications, but I'm constantly amazed at what Windows users consider acceptable. Some applications are just jarring to my design sense.

Lateralus · Jul 7, 2006, 11:15 PM

I find that both Mac and Linux apps have a much better 'feel' than Windows apps, and this doesn't seem to be changing with Vista.

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 12:15 AM

PC: All the latest games, engineering software, rending software, alias, cad programs, solidworks, etc

Mac: ....
...

...

..

>crickets<

loki74 · Jul 8, 2006, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Dopetrackalistic

PC: All the latest games, engineering software, rending software, alias, cad programs, solidworks, etc

Mac: ....
...

...

..

>crickets<

uhhh...
lets see,
-games. who cares? Nobody buys a Mac to play games.
-engineering software. Really, I don't know enough about this one, so I'll give it to you
-rending software. Do you mean rendering software? Hate to break it to ya, but all the best rendering software is also available on Mac. (NextLimit's Maxwell, Worley's Fprime, Kray, PIXAR's RenderMan, Yafray... the only one I can think of that's still PC only is Vray)
-alias. Uh... acquired by Autodesk, duh. And Autodesk has yet to kill any of the Mac versions of Alias's software.
-CAD programs. Okay, I've give you this one--the industry standard CAD apps are PC only... but there are a lot of good CAD options available for Mac as well.
-Solidworks. Who cares? Solidworks isn't some holy grail of graphics computing, like, oh, say Shake, RenderMan, or Maya.
-etc. Uh huh... I suppose you mean:

-Shake (having used both Shake and Combusion, I can say from experience, Shake is far superior)
-Modo (hands down, the best 3D modeling solution, no contest)
-Final Cut Pro (sure you can use Avid, but FCP is much easier)
-DVDSP (really, is there a better DVD app on PC?)
-Mac OSX

..oh wait, those are all Mac only! D'OH!

There is a really weak case for silly people like yourself who try to make the case that Macs don't have any software. There are few strictly PC only apps that the Mac market base is interested in, and the sheer and utter superiority of the OS is enough to tip the scales in favor of the Mac.

Chuckit · Jul 8, 2006, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by Dopetrackalistic

PC: All the latest games, engineering software, rending software, alias, cad programs, solidworks, etc

Mac: ....
...

...

..

>crickets<

I don't know. Why don't you make a video about how much the Mac sucks with the moviemaking software that comes bundled with Windows?

Albert Pujols · Jul 8, 2006, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by loki74

-Solidworks. Who cares? Solidworks isn't some holy grail of graphics computing, like, oh, say Shake, RenderMan, or Maya.

Actually I wish there was a version of Solidworks for Macs. That would make school work so much easier. Solidworks is also a powerful engineering tool, you can design parts and crap with it. I use it just about every day.

harrisjamieh · Jul 8, 2006, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Dopetrackalistic

PC: All the latest games, engineering software, rending software, alias, cad programs, solidworks, etc

Mac: ....
...

...

..

>crickets<

If thats how you think. then why the hell are you a member on a Mac forum?

mduell · Jul 8, 2006, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

I find that both Mac and Linux apps have a much better 'feel' than Windows apps, and this doesn't seem to be changing with Vista.

I have a hard time thinking of any app for Windows or Mac that looks worse than a similar Linux app.

Originally Posted by loki74

-CAD programs. Okay, I've give you this one--the industry standard CAD apps are PC only... but there are a lot of good CAD options available for Mac as well.
-Solidworks. Who cares? Solidworks isn't some holy grail of graphics computing, like, oh, say Shake, RenderMan, or Maya.

What are the "good CAD options" for Mac that can compete with AutoCAD, Solidworks, CATIA, Pro/E, and/or UGS?

What do you mean by holy grail? It's just not as big?

loki74 · 03:07 AM

By good CAD options, I do not mean anything comprable to Solidworks or AutoCAD. There is no contest here; PC wins, flat out. But it is by no means impossible to do CAD on a Mac. You just wouldn't want to do it professionally.

And by not some holy grail, I suppose I mean its not the industry standard (is it?), and that it is not as big as the other apps I mentioned. I would say that AutoCAD is the industry standard CAD app... but then again, I admittedly don't know all that much about Solidworks. I was just not all that excited by what I've seen and read about it (I dunno, am I crazy?) and I've heard on numerous occasions that Solidworks is the 3D counterpart to Photoshop (or an equivalent statement to that effect) and this is something I totally disagree with.

But I digress... if my uneducated stance on CAD/Solidworks has offended anyone, I apologize; that was not the main thing I was trying to get across. I guess my case and point was this:
-A Windows box can do just about everything a Mac can, and then some
-A Mac can do almost anything a Windows box can, but better and/or easier.
-The argument that Windows is superior simply becasue it has more software is weak.

EDIT: I just realized, in my initial post in this thread I mentioned that there might be a PC equivalent to OmniGraffle made by MS... but the OP was looking for an equivalent to OmniOutliner... so no I dont know of any equivalent. Sorry

analogika · Jul 8, 2006, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

I have a hard time thinking of any app for Windows or Mac that looks worse than a similar Linux app.

What are the "good CAD options" for Mac that can compete with AutoCAD, Solidworks, CATIA, Pro/E, and/or UGS?

VectorWorks apparently fulfills a lot of CAD needs admirably.

kick52 · Jul 8, 2006, 06:36 AM

windows is sometimes so clunky and slow to use with those horrible microsoft mouses and it takes 5 minutes to boot up, and when youre on the desktop, it still keeps loading. it also takes about 10 seconds to open up the programs thing on the start menu if you have more than 30 apps.

kick52 · Jul 8, 2006, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Dopetrackalistic

PC: All the latest games, engineering software, rending software, alias, cad programs, solidworks, etc

Mac: ....
...

...

..

>crickets<

why the hell are you on a mac forum if you hate it?

i think you mean:

PC: Clunky slow interface, viruses, slow loading times, apps with interfaces like DOS Edit

Mac:

Good interface, virus free, out of the box websites,movies,picture,galleries, fast startup, easy app install, ease of use.

Mastrap · Jul 8, 2006, 07:35 AM

It's just Ca$h being an ass again.

Peter · Jul 8, 2006, 09:01 AM

Yes. By far.
There are very few shareware applications that are anywhere near the standard of Mac shareware (read: small indie developers, charging only $30 or so) applications.
Panic, Delicious, OmniGroup and so many more make stunning applications.

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by loki74

uhhh...
lets see,
-games. who cares? Nobody buys a Mac to play games.

No ****. Because it sucks ass. I like games, and unfortunately the mac gaming scene has been lacking since Bungie sold out.

-engineering software. Really, I don't know enough about this one, so I'll give it to you
-rending software. Do you mean rendering software? Hate to break it to ya, but all the best rendering software is also available on Mac. (NextLimit's Maxwell, Worley's Fprime, Kray, PIXAR's RenderMan, Yafray... the only one I can think of that's still PC only is Vray)

Yeah, I was drunk when I was typing. Sorry. What about RHINO? A quick and easy way to render 3d mockups... not available on the mac. Alias, as far as I know, has no mac version. Autocad, same thing.

-Solidworks. Who cares? Solidworks isn't some holy grail of graphics computing, like, oh, say Shake, RenderMan, or Maya.

Maybe not in your field, but in industrial design, or anything dealing with engineering, solidworks is an incredibly powerful program that is becoming an industry standard. The Mac has nothing like it.

I like macs. But they don't have EVERYTHING we need. It will be nice to have a dual booting intel mac.

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I don't know. Why don't you make a video about how much the Mac sucks with the moviemaking software that comes bundled with Windows?

Again, I like macs. I've used them since my quadra 660AV. I hate PCs. I hate windows. But I need some of the programs that are available for windows that there is just no equivilent on the mac side. I'm NOT bashing macs. I'm just saying the original poster is a bit of a mac zealot, saying how EVERYTHING on the mac is SOOOOOOO much better. In general? Yes. In specific applications categories the mac's library is severely lacking.

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

VectorWorks apparently fulfills a lot of CAD needs admirably.

hahahaahahhahaha

Kerrigan · Jul 8, 2006, 11:49 AM

If I'm being a zealot, then please enlighten me to some good PC alternatives to the Mac apps which I listed (and Trillian doesn't count, I've already talked about that).

Jens Peter · Jul 8, 2006, 11:53 AM

Generally, I agree.

But, the Adium example, you can get something called Miranda IM that you can costumize as much as Adium. It still doesn't looks as good - but its a step in the right direction

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If I'm being a zealot, then please enlighten me to some good PC alternatives to the Mac apps which I listed (and Trillian doesn't count, I've already talked about that).

I don't use windows. I hate it. All I'm saying is mac doesn't have the best of the best 100% of hte time. There are big gaping holes in it's software library, just like there are in the windows library.

Kerrigan · Jul 8, 2006, 12:10 PM

I'm aware of that, which is why I said that OSX's apps are better "for the things I do".

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 12:11 PM

Right on then.

loki74 · Jul 8, 2006, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dopetrackalistic

Yeah, I was drunk when I was typing. Sorry. What about RHINO? A quick and easy way to render 3d mockups... not available on the mac. Alias, as far as I know, has no mac version. Autocad, same thing.

Waitwaitwait.... you are alleging PC superiority over Macs in the field of rendering software because of RHINO?? Quick and easy, sure, but far from the industry standard...

By Alias, you mean, exactly ....what? Alias was a software company that owned Maya, MotionBuilder, etc. As far as I know, most of their apps supported Mac versions. (Spefically, having used it on my Mac, I know for a fact that there was and is a Mac version of Maya). They have since been acquired by Autodesk, which has yet to kill any of their Mac versions as far as I know.

I will entirely agree that the PC dominates the CAD/engineering market. But the notion that there is nothing but ">crickets<" to be heard about what software is available on MacOS is ridiculous.

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 01:22 PM

Alias made programs for rendering OTHER than Maya.... since autodesk took over I can't even find a list of names of htem right now. NONE of them were available for the mac.

And I'm not alledging anything. There is no ****ing autocad for the mac. Hence, it is not a great platform. There is no solidworks, no autocad, and most of alias's field specific apps do not run in OSX. Period.

brassplayersrock² · Jul 8, 2006, 01:38 PM

um, ca$h, heh, the one program you need is bootcamp if you can afford a new intel mac from all the "winnings of video contests" it lets you run both windoze(winblowz) and os x

loki74 · Jul 8, 2006, 01:38 PM

As though AutoCAD, Solidworks, and whatever other Alias programs you speak of are the ONLY good apps out there.

Seriously, have you even checked out freaking Maxwell? While you're at NextLimit's site, also check out RealFlow (SPH based fluid dynamics simulator), also available in both PC and Mac versions. Or how about RenderMan, which is THE industry standard in rendering. Need we even get into 2D graphics and illustration programs? Hell, the only 2D app I can think of at the moment that is PC only is PaintShop Pro!

Like I said, it boils down to this--a PC can do more things than a Mac can, but a Mac can do some things a PC can do, but better. This statement seems perfectly in line with your statement that "in general Macs are better but in specific apps categories their library is severely lacking."

production_coordinator · Jul 8, 2006, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Dopetrackalistic

Alias made programs for rendering OTHER than Maya.... since autodesk took over I can't even find a list of names of htem right now. NONE of them were available for the mac.

And I'm not alledging anything. There is no ****ing autocad for the mac. Hence, it is not a great platform. There is no solidworks, no autocad, and most of alias's field specific apps do not run in OSX. Period.

By your definition... only Windows is "a great platform"

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock

um, ca$h, heh, the one program you need is bootcamp if you can afford a new intel mac from all the "winnings of video contests" it lets you run both windoze(winblowz) and os x

Yep, just waiting for the next imac revision... or maybe the MBP. We'll see.

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

By your definition... only Windows is "a great platform"

By your definition, you can't ****ing read. See what I wrote a couple posts up:

I don't use windows. I hate it. All I'm saying is mac doesn't have the best of the best 100% of hte time. There are big gaping holes in it's software library, just like there are in the windows library.

Again, I HATE WINDOWS. It's the shittiest OS I've ever used. Hence why I have a mac.

brassplayersrock² · Jul 8, 2006, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dopetrackalistic

Again, I HATE WINDOWS. It's the shittiest OS I've ever used. Hence why I have a mac.

please please PLEASE come by my school and tell that to all the kiddies that are installing windoze onto there MBPs. if you can come with a flamethrower as well, thatd be awesome

mduell · Jul 8, 2006, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by loki74

By good CAD options, I do not mean anything comprable to Solidworks or AutoCAD. There is no contest here; PC wins, flat out. But it is by no means impossible to do CAD on a Mac. You just wouldn't want to do it professionally.

And by not some holy grail, I suppose I mean its not the industry standard (is it?), and that it is not as big as the other apps I mentioned. I would say that AutoCAD is the industry standard CAD app... but then again, I admittedly don't know all that much about Solidworks. I was just not all that excited by what I've seen and read about it (I dunno, am I crazy?) and I've heard on numerous occasions that Solidworks is the 3D counterpart to Photoshop (or an equivalent statement to that effect) and this is something I totally disagree with.

Solidworks isn't even close to a 3D version of Photoshop... that'd be Maya or one of the other 3d modelling apps. Solidworks is a close and direct competitor to AutoCAD; they advertise on their homepage that over 300k AutoCAD users have switched to Solidworks.

Originally Posted by loki74

As though AutoCAD, Solidworks, and whatever other Alias programs you speak of are the ONLY good apps out there.

Seriously, have you even checked out freaking Maxwell? While you're at NextLimit's site, also check out RealFlow (SPH based fluid dynamics simulator), also available in both PC and Mac versions.

Great, now where are the competitors to CFX, Fluent, and Gambit?

Peter · Jul 8, 2006, 02:55 PM

Is Mac Shareware Superior to Windows Shareware? - http://swished.us/wp/archives/27

I have always felt that one of the main advantages of using OS X is the incredible shareware. A few weeks ago a friend of mine (windows user) was telling me about this awesome bluetooth application, that let him control his desktop via his phone. He was dumbfounded when I explained that we had it first! (Actually I believe Salling Clicker was first, then Romeo etc…)

Just some ramblings i wrote out after this thread

dcmacdaddy · 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

What are the "good CAD options" for Mac that can compete with AutoCAD, Solidworks, CATIA, Pro/E, and/or UGS?

VectorWorks from Nemetscheck (formerly Diehl GraphSoft). We just upgraded all our designers to the new full version of VectorWorks Designer 12 and provides them plenty of functionality for space planning, 2-D plan and elevation drawings, elevation renderings, light plans/reflected ceiling plans, platform and case design, you name it. The only drawings we have in AutoCAD are the original architectural and as-built drawings for the building. And those files are kept only for reference purposes as we have multiple conformed sets of the original architectural drawings.

Y3a · Jul 8, 2006, 03:25 PM

The Mac is becoming the small multimedia business machine and the PC/Windows box is fast becoming the toy. LOL

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Y3a

The Mac is becoming the small multimedia business machine and the PC/Windows box is fast becoming the toy. LOL

No. Mac= multimedia, production, movies, etc...., and home use.

PC= hardcore specific applications and engineering/rendering/modeling stuff for industry. And dumbshits who like windows who've never used a mac.

The Godfather · Jul 8, 2006, 04:19 PM

It is like comparing Gamecube games and Playstation games. For a great number of people, the sheer amount of the Windows software inventory is reason enough to keep using PCs.

I, for one, love the fact that I can use Windows software on my Mac.

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 04:23 PM

Werd. I can't wait to get an intel mac. I'll probably use it identically, only I boot into windows to play interstate 76.

sek929 · Jul 8, 2006, 04:34 PM

Yeah, Boot Camp and Intel Macs pretty much take care of that gripe.

I'd probably only boot into Windows to play Half Life 2: Episode One.

production_coordinator · Jul 8, 2006, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Dopetrackalistic

By your definition, you can't ****ing read. See what I wrote a couple posts up:

I don't use windows. I hate it. All I'm saying is mac doesn't have the best of the best 100% of hte time. There are big gaping holes in it's software library, just like there are in the windows library.

Again, I HATE WINDOWS. It's the shittiest OS I've ever used. Hence why I have a mac.

First off, grow up a little.

Second, there are only "gaping holes" if you get in to rather specific fields. You named a few, but for the LARGE MAJORITY of home users... there are ZERO "gaping holes" in fact, for most businesses... OS X would be more than enough. I use four programs at work. Word, Excel, Outlook and the web...

Dopetrackalistic · Jul 8, 2006, 04:50 PM

Which is exactly what I said.

analogika · Jul 8, 2006, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dopetrackalistic

hahahaahahhahaha

what?

analogika · Jul 8, 2006, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Solidworks isn't even close to a 3D version of Photoshop... that'd be Maya or one of the other 3d modelling apps. Solidworks is a close and direct competitor to AutoCAD; they advertise on their homepage that over 300k AutoCAD users have switched to Solidworks.

What about VectorWorks?