[besson3c]

I have some very general questions for you guys that I thought would be most appropriate to ask here since they are more preferential, non-technical type questions.


Some of you may have heard of this web technology called AJAX. AJAX allows developers to create forms or web interfaces that allow live updates of content without the user being forced to click the "submit" button. This allows web page interfaces to work more like OS X Preferences dialogs where there is often no "save changes" button at all, and changes take place instantly right after clicking on an element in the pref dialog.

My question to you is this: is this a good thing? Are years of working with web forms and looking for a "save changes" ingrained in you so that when there isn't a button this is confusing? Do you need some sort of visual feedback on the web to know when some sort of change you've made in a web application is acknowledged and saved, or can this work behind the scenes like it does in an OS X preferences dialog?

In an OS X preferences dialog, do you sometimes find the notion of closing a preferences dialog window to dismiss it confusing in wondering whether it will save your changes in doing so, or have you become comfortable with this? I suspect that there is some interface inconsistency here, because some dialogs also have "OK" buttons, and I suspect that these OK buttons may often simply mean "get rid of this window".

What are your general opinions here? What have been your experiences working with newbie users WRT these issues?

I appreciate your feedback!

[besson3c]

Here's a more concrete example:

https://netmusician.org/cms/store/store_inventory.php


What do you think of this interface? Does it need a big "make it so" button? The plus and minus icons are making immediate changes so that the entire page doesn't have to reload (this page will eventually be a somewhat heavy page reload). The plus and minus icons provide a great deal of speed and efficency in this context, but technically, a "save changes" button is not really necessary here.

Would you like to see a save changes button of some sort? Is it okay if some forms have save changes/submit/make it so buttons while some don't, or should all be one or the other as much as possible? Are there circumstances where you would find one set of behavior appropriate or preferential while the other one less so?

Hope this questions make sense.

[blackstar]

i dont get how that forms working...
is there some place i can see what i am actually doing, or is it just that one form?

[Chuckit]

Read up on AJAX if you want to know how that form is working.

By the way, I think some uses (such as that) are very natural for AJAX. Having to push the submit button and wait for a page load after every little action is an annoying timesink. If you can make an interface that feels more like something people are used to (and no, Web forms are not the thing people are most used to), you've created a good interface.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by blackstar

i dont get how that forms working...
is there some place i can see what i am actually doing, or is it just that one form?

Could you be more clear? I have no idea what you are referring to.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Read up on AJAX if you want to know how that form is working.

By the way, I think some uses (such as that) are very natural for AJAX. Having to push the submit button and wait for a page load after every little action is an annoying timesink. If you can make an interface that feels more like something people are used to (and no, Web forms are not the thing people are most used to), you've created a good interface.

I agree, but I guess what I'm trying to figure out is exactly what people are used to.

Some people don't like the OS X way of doing things, and would prefer a big "make it so" OK button of some sort, because such a button at least provides a clearer sense of feedback that the changes have been saved than simply closing or dismissing a window.

See what I mean?

[chrisford]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What are your general opinions here? What have been your experiences working with newbie users WRT these issues?

I appreciate your feedback!

Hi Besson3c -

Interesting development, AJAX. It's a useful suite of techniques, tricks and tweaks that allow very rapid feedback to the user. As you say, it's most commonly used in form completion and/or error checking.

The research I've done (and the little research I've undertaken on the behalf of clients) suggests that - as usual - the only sensible answer to the question of the merit of AJAX is the clarion call of interaction designers everywhere: it depends.

On the positive side: AJAX allows any system to confirm user actions rapidly and without waiting for a server call. This can be very useful when error checking form entry info, for example (as long as AJAX is used consistently - the only thing worse than being uniformly clumsy is being intermittently usable - at least when something behaves in a consistent manner, the user is able to (a) form a mental model of the system's common behaviours and (b) try to predict what muddle-headed response the system might provide yet. Inconsistency is the first step on the road to bad design).

On the other hand, the very rapid response that AJAX allows is often not re-creatable across the system as a whole (other content pages still require the server call to gather the info, which takes time). This means that the AJAX-ified bits of the system are likely to set an expectation in the user ("This system responds immediately to my actions") which is then contradicted as that same user accesses other parts/functions of the same system.

Some brand bloke said "The only thing worse than not making a promise is making a promise and then breaking it". As a designer, you must be very careful about what 'promises' you make to the user - and, if you do make these promises, you better be certain that you don't ever break them (and lose your users' trust).

Also, there are some times when the delay caused by a server call can actually act to encourage trust - for example, if I provide my personal banking details (or something equally important - baby photos or my online journal, for example) to a site, the delayed confirmation of receipt of that data that is caused by the server call can (slightly counter-intuitively) reinforce the perception of security. I imagine (but have no research to back it up) that this is routed in the 'slower' nature of most secure off-line transactions (opening a bank account, opening a safe, etc.).

So. AJAX: it's good and bad.

And please, please, please everyone: never refer to AJAX in the same breath as "Web 2.0". Firstly, because the one has nothing to do with the other and secondly because "Web 2.0" is nothing more than the fuddled ramblings of 20 year olds who missed all the really interesting interaction design case studies in the early nineties.

/ ends grumpy pedant mode

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by chrisford

Hi Besson3c -

Interesting development, AJAX. It's a useful suite of techniques, tricks and tweaks that allow very rapid feedback to the user. As you say, it's most commonly used in form completion and/or error checking.

The research I've done (and the little research I've undertaken on the behalf of clients) suggests that - as usual - the only sensible answer to the question of the merit of AJAX is the clarion call of interaction designers everywhere: it depends.

On the positive side: AJAX allows any system to confirm user actions rapidly and without waiting for a server call. This can be very useful when error checking form entry info, for example (as long as AJAX is used consistently - the only thing worse than being uniformly clumsy is being intermittently usable - at least when something behaves in a consistent manner, the user is able to (a) form a mental model of the system's common behaviours and (b) try to predict what muddle-headed response the system might provide yet. Inconsistency is the first step on the road to bad design).

On the other hand, the very rapid response that AJAX allows is often not re-creatable across the system as a whole (other content pages still require the server call to gather the info, which takes time). This means that the AJAX-ified bits of the system are likely to set an expectation in the user ("This system responds immediately to my actions") which is then contradicted as that same user accesses other parts/functions of the same system.

Some brand bloke said "The only thing worse than not making a promise is making a promise and then breaking it". As a designer, you must be very careful about what 'promises' you make to the user - and, if you do make these promises, you better be certain that you don't ever break them (and lose your users' trust).

Also, there are some times when the delay caused by a server call can actually act to encourage trust - for example, if I provide my personal banking details (or something equally important - baby photos or my online journal, for example) to a site, the delayed confirmation of receipt of that data that is caused by the server call can (slightly counter-intuitively) reinforce the perception of security. I imagine (but have no research to back it up) that this is routed in the 'slower' nature of most secure off-line transactions (opening a bank account, opening a safe, etc.).

So. AJAX: it's good and bad.

And please, please, please everyone: never refer to AJAX in the same breath as "Web 2.0". Firstly, because the one has nothing to do with the other and secondly because "Web 2.0" is nothing more than the fuddled ramblings of 20 year olds who missed all the really interesting interaction design case studies in the early nineties.

/ ends grumpy pedant mode

Thanks for your feedback... When you can, please take another look at the page and let me know if you think the changes I made provide enough feedback for this interface to be clear.

I think in general, I'm going to just worry about the feedback I provide, and make sure that I use the most appropriate interface for the content. I'm not going to worry so much about the consistency, because there is simply a right tool for the right job depending on the context.

Your feedback here has actually helped me quite a bit, believe it or not. THanks for taking your time to write this!

[Millennium]

If you want to see a good auto-save interface, you should consider getting a LiveJournal account. Recent versions of LJ's editor auto-save drafts of your entries as you write them. Every time it auto-saves, it updates a widget just above the editor which shows you exactly what time the most recent auto-save took place.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Millennium

If you want to see a good auto-save interface, you should consider getting a LiveJournal account. Recent versions of LJ's editor auto-save drafts of your entries as you write them. Every time it auto-saves, it updates a widget just above the editor which shows you exactly what time the most recent auto-save took place.

Cool... I know how to do that if I ever wanted to, perhaps this is something I should look into for my musician bio module...

Thanks for the suggestion

[hayesk]

Internet technology is not 100% reliable, so yes, you absolutely need some sort of feedback to let you know the changes have been accepted.

Preferences in an OS are a different thing, there's no communication across an unreliable network. If there was, I'd want feedback there too.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by hayesk

Internet technology is not 100% reliable, so yes, you absolutely need some sort of feedback to let you know the changes have been accepted.

Preferences in an OS are a different thing, there's no communication across an unreliable network. If there was, I'd want feedback there too.

Like I said, I think OS X's model is pretty inconsistent and confusing. How is it intuitive that closing a window will retain all the changes selected within the window in the forefront? I understand what you are getting at from a technical standpoint, but I think there are also more intuitive and basic interface guideline issues here too..

Just my two cents.

[misc]

http://files.vbulletin.com/3.5/ajax.html

That's what we get to play with.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by misc

http://files.vbulletin.com/3.5/ajax.html

That's what we get to play with.

Yeah, I've played with vBulletin a bit, it does have some nice ajax stuff in it.

I think the most impressive ajax I've seen is Zimbra. I bet gmail uses it too, although I haven't played with gmail yet.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Like I said, I think OS X's model is pretty inconsistent and confusing. How is it intuitive that closing a window will retain all the changes selected within the window in the forefront?

Does it disturb you that Finder doesn't have a "Yes, I really want to move these files" button?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Does it disturb you that Finder doesn't have a "Yes, I really want to move these files" button?

No, because seeing the icons dropped into a different location is a source of visual feedback.