[mojo2]

USA>Society & Culture
from the August 08, 2006 edition

Misogyny - set to music - may alter teen behavior

By Amanda Paulson | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

CHICAGO – When it comes to the sexuality of music, the battle between the old and young has raged for decades.

Blues was once "the devil's music." The Rolling Stones had to sing a sterilized "Let's Spend Some Time Together" to get radio play.

But, as always, the previous generations' complaints over musical tastefulness might now appear almost quaint. A new study poses serious questions about more recent music that isn't just sexual, but also degrading and misogynistic.

According to a study published Monday by the RAND Corporation, a nonpartisan research group, teenagers who spent more time listening to music with lyrics that objectify women or praise men for their voracious sexual appetites were more likely to become sexually active earlier in their youth. Previous studies have linked sex at a young age with higher risks of pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

It's the latest, and among the most rigorous, studies in a growing body of research that suggests media have a significant impact on young people's behavior - a claim that ignites controversy when coupled with calls for censorship or restrictions.

When it comes to counteracting a harmful message, communicating with teenagers about appropriate behavior, experts say, can be more useful than stopping the music.

"Kids are exposed to these sorts of messages not just in music but in culture in general," says Steven Martino, a RAND psychologist and lead researcher on the study. "It's better to have them be critical thinkers than have them just be sheltered teens."

Still, Dr. Martino says, the study left little doubt in his mind that the music's message has an effect.

Continued at the link.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0808/p01s04-ussc.html

You can't deny it. Music and the popular media (including video games) DO affect young people.

And more now than ever before.

[smacintush]

YOU can't deny it, how you are raised has far, far more to do with behavior than any external media influence.

I think that it is the combination of media and lack of a traditional family life that is the problem. Kids these days are being raised by their schools and daycare/babysitters. People are too busy working and chasing that dollar to raise their kids properly.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by mojo2

(including video games)

You quickly lost my interest as soon as you showed your bias. Now you just sound like every other person with a technological disconnect to hobbies of today.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Dakar

You quickly lost my interest as soon as you showed your bias. Now you just sound like every other person with a technological disconnect to hobbies of today.

"That's the WHOLE problem with you whipper-snappers! The second something doesn't agree with YOUR video game twisted sense of right and wrong you tune out. No wonder you ALL are so crazy."

The imaginary mojo2

Seems like we've each drawn little boxes around each other but in reality we've drawn the boxes around OURSELVES.

If you are unable to look at the effect of video games on thinking and behavior, then you have nothing to fear from any boxes I might draw.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by smacintush

YOU can't deny it, how you are raised has far, far more to do with behavior than any external media influence.

I think that it is the combination of media and lack of a traditional family life that is the problem. Kids these days are being raised by their schools and daycare/babysitters. People are too busy working and chasing that dollar to raise their kids properly.

I will gladly acknowledge the validity of the picture you describe. And I'm hoping your view of the situation is far and wide enough to take in all the other scenarios that don't fit into the one you drew.

[screamingFit]

Originally Posted by smacintush

YOU can't deny it, how you are raised has far, far more to do with behavior than any external media influence.

I think that it is the combination of media and lack of a traditional family life that is the problem. Kids these days are being raised by their schools and daycare/babysitters. People are too busy working and chasing that dollar to raise their kids properly.

When a child's only influence is rap, video games and movies/television, you can't expect much. Not only do I blame lack of parenting, I also blame the Hollywood machine for making bad things "kewl".

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by mojo2

SIf you are unable to look at the effect of video games on thinking and behavior, then you have nothing to fear from any boxes I might draw.

"If you can't see you're wrong then there's no talking to you."

That sums up your post, correct?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Dakar

"If you can't see you're wrong then there's no talking to you."

That sums up your post, correct?

No, rather, if you are committed to your view, if it is a belief, then there's no sense in talking to you.

If you are able to weigh the arguments then I'd be glad to listen to what you had to say against the idea that gaming has no effect on thinking, mores, attitudes, expectations, relationships and behaviors.

[Dakar]

If you have an argument for the video game portion of your comment, feel free to bring it to light.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

When a child's only influence is rap, video games and movies/television, you can't expect much. Not only do I blame lack of parenting, I also blame the Hollywood machine for making bad things "kewl".

And that comes from hiring kids to appeal to kids. People with sharp minds but a less than well developed sense of morality and little life experience are being hired by the TV networks and are writing and greenlighting or otherwise deciding what goes into our kids' brains.

And let's not EVEN talk (yet) about the popularization of liberal and progressive views to the exclusion of most others.

And let's remember here folks, the Fox News Channel is an island of sanity (ONE SINGLE NETWORK OF NEWS AND TALK ONLY) amid a sea of liberalism and permissiveness.

[screamingFit]

Originally Posted by mojo2

No, rather, if you are committed to your view, if it is a belief, then there's no sense in talking to you.

If you are able to weigh the arguments then I'd be glad to listen to what you had to say against the idea that gaming has no effect on thinking, mores, attitudes, expectations, relationships and behaviors.

Pong, Galaga, Pac-Man, etc. didn't have much of an effect mentally on my generation. Propensity towards quarter-hoarding, maybe.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by mojo2

And that comes from hiring kids to appeal to kids. People with sharp minds but a less than well developed sense of morality and little life experience are being hired by the TV networks and are writing and greenlighting or otherwise deciding what goes into our kids' brains.

Your opinion notwithstanding, the choice is in the hands of parents not to allow their children to watch these shows.

Originally Posted by mojo2

And let's not EVEN talk (yet) about the popularization of liberal and progressive views to the exclusion of most others.

Perhaps its popular because its what most people want?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Dakar

If you have an argument for the video game portion of your comment, feel free to bring it to light.

Have you ever dreamed about a girl?

I have.

Ever dreamed about a car?

I have.

Ever dream about a job?

I have.

How much interaction did you have with the girl, the car, the job before this occurred?

How would you characterize the intensity of the interaction? How much time did you spend with each?

[screamingFit]

Originally Posted by mojo2

And that comes from hiring kids to appeal to kids. People with sharp minds but a less than well developed sense of morality and little life experience are being hired by the TV networks and are writing and greenlighting or otherwise deciding what goes into our kids' brains.

And let's not EVEN talk (yet) about the popularization of liberal and progressive views to the exclusion of most others.

[sarcasm]And let's remember here folks, the Fox News Channel is an island of sanity (ONE SINGLE NETWORK OF NEWS AND TALK ONLY) amid a sea of liberalism and permissiveness.[/sarcasm]

Fixed.

You can't be close-minded enough to think that good kids only come out of a conservative lifestyle. If Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh was my kid, I would of drowned them a long time ago.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by mojo2

How much time did you spend with each?

As much as my wants, income, and parents allowed.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Your opinion notwithstanding, the choice is in the hands of parents not to allow their children to watch these shows.

All I want to do is bring the facts to the attention of the parents for them to decide what they believe is best for their kids. We have seen that the way the TV shows in the M.E., for example, glorifying martyrdom has helped create a sense in the population that martyrdom is a great thing.

If the parents REALLY understood all the facts maybe they would choose differently.

Originally Posted by Dakar

Perhaps its popular because its what most people want?

And that's always what we should aspire to, huh?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

Fixed.

You can't be close-minded enough to think that good kids only come out of a conservative lifestyle. If Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh was my kid, I would of drowned them a long time ago.

Your comment just shows where we are in our national imbalance.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Dakar

As much as my wants, income, and parents allowed.

Answer the rest of the questions, please?

[Doofy]

According to a study published Monday by the RAND Corporation, a nonpartisan research group, teenagers who spent more time listening to music with lyrics that objectify women

Sounds like someone needs to shut up and get back to the kitchen.






















And fetch my slippers. And a beer.

[screamingFit]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Your comment just shows where we are in our national imbalance.

Excuse me? Your bias isn't any better than mine.

Regardless, corrupt, spun, political agenda television shouldn't be a litmus test as to the health of a nation.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by mojo2

All I want to do is bring the facts to the attention of the parents for them to decide what they believe is best for their kids. We have seen that the way the TV shows in the M.E., for example, glorifying martyrdom has helped create a sense in the population that martyrdom is a great thing.

If the parents REALLY understood all the facts maybe they would choose differently.

Just because people aren't making decisions you like doesn't mean they're ill-informed.

Originally Posted by mojo2

And that's always what we should aspire to, huh?

I do believe its called the 'pursuit of happineff'.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Sounds like someone needs to shut up and get back to the kitchen.
And fetch my slippers. And a beer.

Well, there's at least one aspect of hip/hop and rap Doofy likes.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Sounds like someone needs to shut up and get back to the kitchen.

And fetch my slippers. And a beer.

I have friends who sound JUST like that!

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Answer the rest of the questions, please?

How about you just present your argument. I'm not averse to answering a few questions, but I'm not going to fill out a questionnaire just to have this debate.

[Doofy]

I'm not convinced about this misogyny from music thing. I mean, I grew up with hair metal and the likes of the Crue. Yet in the notoriously macho hair metal fraternity we treated our women like gold.

Strangely enough, the women used to go get our pipe/slippers/beer for us anyways, without being asked (it still happens to this day, but I'm talking about the general attitudes in the hey day).


I totally get the crime rate rise from the rap glamourising violence thing, and agree with it to some extent. But misogyny? Maybe some women just like to be women instead of trying to be men.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I'm not convinced about this misogyny from music thing. I mean, I grew up with hair metal and the likes of the Crue. Yet in the notoriously macho hair metal fraternity we treated our women like gold.

That's because they were doing your hair and make-up.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

Excuse me? Your bias isn't any better than mine.

I'm not talking about YOUR bias vs MY bias, I'm talking about the imbalance of intolerance where pundits espousing perfectly reasonable points of view are considered suitable candidates
for infanticide as children.

Did that come from a video game? Or an MTV gangsta rap vid?

Originally Posted by screamingFit

Regardless, corrupt, spun, political agenda television shouldn't be a litmus test as to the health of a nation.

When was the last period of time or era where you think America was great?

Some would say now. Others might say the Clinton years. Or Gulf War I or the Reagan era or the mid 60's before VietNam became the war it eventually became.

What has changed since that time?

In the go-GO! progressive 1960's, liberalism was as predominant in the national psyche as it's ever been. And liberal policies were enacted right and left only to have fallen woefully short of their intended goals. Those liberal policies contributed to America failing as a nation and in some ways it's still not recovered from the liberalism of those days.

What made America great has escaped us and it's not something that the system itself, as ingenious as our forefathers designed it to be, can remedy.

And if we don't take a hard look it will be a case where we don't deserve the fine system that's served us well all these years. We'll have trashed our own greatness as a country and as a people because we did what felt good at the time.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar

That's because they were doing your hair and make-up.

Those are interesting new euphemisms. I'll have to remember those.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Those are interesting new euphemisms.

You wish.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by mojo2

According to a study published Monday by the RAND Corporation, a nonpartisan research group, teenagers who spent more time listening to music with lyrics that objectify women or praise men for their voracious sexual appetites were more likely to become sexually active earlier in their youth.

How did they find out the direction of that effect?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Just because people aren't making decisions you like doesn't mean they're ill-informed.

Do you really think parents would INTENTIONALLY raise children the way they have if they knew kids such as these are what would result? Believe me, parents do the best they can most of the time. But they FREQUENTLY make parenting decisions based on ignorance.

Actually Dakar, it's more like I see the state of affairs in this country and keep a keen eye out for things that might suggest causes for why we are where we are and I point them out.

Originally Posted by Dakar

I do believe its called the 'pursuit of happineff'.

And I get the impression some folks look at the pursuit of happiness as the one thing that makes them able to ignore any other principles.

All desert and no vegetables. All vacation and no work. All harvest and no planting. All freedom and no sacrifice to maintain it.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

How did they find out the direction of that effect?

If it's not in the article you'll have to look elsewhere for the answer to your question.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar

You wish.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Do you really think parents would INTENTIONALLY raise children the way they have if they knew kids such as these are what would result?

That depends on what 'result' you're talking about.

Originally Posted by mojo2

Believe me, parents do the best they can most of the time.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I bet they think they are, though.

Originally Posted by mojo2

And I get the impression some folks look at the pursuit of happiness as the one thing that makes them able to ignore any other principles.

Depends on the principles and how they rank them. It's subjective.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Please. That's what I should have given you for that dumb joke.

[davesimondotcom]

Ever since my parents got me a Nintendo in 8th grade, I've wanted to be a plumber, jump on any turtle I see - then kick it, save princesses and wear overalls.

Damn influence of video games!!

[davesimondotcom]

Seriously, though, I spent from 7th grade through high school listening to lots of rap, and I still don't call women "ho" or "b*tch," nor do I do drive-by shootings.

It CAN be an influence, just like movies, tv, books, friends. But parents are the first line of defense, always have been, always will be. Teach your kids right and wrong and they'll be fine.

[Dakar]

It probably influences those that are susceptible (That is, easily led) -- but if its not rap music, its going to be something else unless their parents are very careful (I believe this is where after school programs can be helpful).

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Dakar

That depends on what 'result' you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Dakar

Depends on the principles and how they rank them. It's subjective.

Spike Lee was in Toronto recently speaking to a group of Ryerson University students about a variety of subjects but mostly on the role of African-Americans in Hollywood and the media at large. Lee took particular exception to the proliferation and over exposure of Gangsta rap.

That stuff is not who we really are. We’re more regal than that. We have more dignity than that, despite what is sold.

Lee discussed how the media portrayed whites as smart and black as pimps. He is not calling for a boycott but he is asking people to think about how Gangsta rap is portraying black culture. Lee spoke about how living with his daughter has affected him (he no longer listens to R. Kelly due to his controversial video). Women usually take a particularly abusive hit in Gangsta rap and Lee took some time to discuss this as well.

These artists talk about ‘ho this, bitch this, skank this’ and all the other stuff. They’re talking about all our mothers, all our sisters. They’re talking about their own mothers, grandmothers.

I remember listening to Rap and Hip Hop in the Mid 80s to the early 90s before the Gangsta boom. I remember Run DMC, Grandmaster Flash, Public Enemy, EPMD and other artist that got speak about controversial issues with out selling out and degrading their own culture and then game NWA. NWA hit the rap world hard. Suddenly to get a record out you had to be from Compton, Carry a gun and have total disrespect for women. That is when I left rap behind, sure I listen to the occasional hit but by and large I can no longer support an industry so focused on negative stereotypes.

http://haldenjohnson.net/category/entertainment/music/

[screamingFit]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I'm not talking about YOUR bias vs MY bias, I'm talking about the imbalance of intolerance where pundits espousing perfectly reasonable points of view are considered suitable candidates
for infanticide as children.

Did that come from a video game? Or an MTV gangsta rap vid?



When was the last period of time or era where you think America was great?

Some would say now. Others might say the Clinton years. Or Gulf War I or the Reagan era or the mid 60's before VietNam became the war it eventually became.

What has changed since that time?

In the go-GO! progressive 1960's, liberalism was as predominant in the national psyche as it's ever been. And liberal policies were enacted right and left only to have fallen woefully short of their intended goals. Those liberal policies contributed to America failing as a nation and in some ways it's still not recovered from the liberalism of those days.

What made America great has escaped us and it's not something that the system itself, as ingenious as our forefathers designed it to be, can remedy.

And if we don't take a hard look it will be a case where we don't deserve the fine system that's served us well all these years. We'll have trashed our own greatness as a country and as a people because we did what felt good at the time.

America was never "great". I think the precepts that this country were founded on were pretty good so if I have to pick a time when America was "great", it would be then. Since then, though, it's slowly sinking into quagmire.

There is no longer any hope that this country nor world will be a "great" place to be. Too many people with too much money at stake and personal agendas that need to be fulfilled.

Conservativism or liberalism ideaologies are so skewed from their origins that saying one is better than another is pointless. Neither of these current American idealogies should be considered points of view we should be pushing on children.

And, shouldn't this be in the Poli Forum?

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by abe

Ok, I'm starting to lose the forest for the trees here.

What is the point you are making? That picture is a gangsta rap coloring book. What does this have to do with parenting ignorance ?

Originally Posted by abe

http://haldenjohnson.net/category/entertainment/music/

Ok. What about the article?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Ever since my parents got me a Nintendo in 8th grade, I've wanted to be a plumber, jump on any turtle I see - then kick it, save princesses and wear overalls.

Damn influence of video games!!

Quoted for truth. If only I had not played so much Final Fantasy when I was younger, maybe I wouldn't feel compelled to steal from everyone I see and then call down a meteor on their heads.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Ok, I'm starting to lose the forest for the trees here.

What is the point you are making? That picture is a gangsta rap coloring book. What does this have to do with parenting ignorance ?




Ok. What about the article?

Hahaha! Good ones!

[Dakar]

:d .

(Damn non-caplock is screwing my emoticon).

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Quoted for truth. If only I had not played so much Final Fantasy when I was younger, maybe I wouldn't feel compelled to steal from everyone I see and then call down a meteor on their heads.

Not every drunk driver smashes into unsuspecting motorists causing death and destruction.

Not every teenager becomes an unwed parent or dies from drugs or gang warfare as a result of rap music and the culture surrounding it.

So tell me where did all the shooting rampages start in America and when?

[Hash]

By the way, the point of the article may be totally wrong.

The article says those "who spent more time listening to music with lyrics that objectify women or praise men for their voracious sexual appetites were more likely to become sexually active earlier in their youth".

However, the causality may be reverse as well. It may be that on the contrary, those who are more likely to be sexually active earlier prefer to listen to music with the particular type of lyrics.

The whole point of the article is then lost.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Not every drunk driver smashes into unsuspecting motorists causing death and destruction.

Not every teenager becomes an unwed parent or dies from drugs or gang warfare as a result of rap music and the culture surrounding it.

So, really, video games are just a scapegoat rather than a cause, aren't they? What you're really pointing out is that, out of the massive number of children who play video games, a few go bad, not that video games actually make it likely a kid will go bad.

Originally Posted by mojo2

So tell me where did all the shooting rampages start in America and when?

Two important factors:

1. Children have relatively easy access to guns.

2. Parents don't do enough parenting.

As these factors have become increasingly true, violence has become increasingly present.

[Dakar]

So, can I safely assume you won't be answering any questions, mojo?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Dakar

So, can I safely assume you won't be answering any questions, mojo?

Geez! Not only are some people FULL subscribers to the philosophy of hedonism...

Definitions of hedonism on the Web:

the belief that pleasure is the greatest good and highest aspiration of mankind. In early utilitarian thinking, this belief provided the interpretation of 'utility' or 'good'.
www.filosofia.net/materiales/rec/glosaen.htm

That pleasure is the principle good and proper goal of all action. Self indulgence.
www.carm.org/atheism/terms.htm

the doctrine that pleasure is the actual, and also the proper, motive of every action.
www.willdurant.com/glossary.htm

Indeed, self-gratification. Essentially, this is the principle of "Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die" (1 Cor 15:32) - ie the idea that if one wants to be happy in life, then he must pursue a lifestyle of pleasure and gratification.
www.apologetics.org/glossary.html

the belief that pleasure is the principle good, and should be the highest aim of the individual and society.
www.summit.org/resource/dictionary/

the doctrine which holds the standard of the good and morality as whatever gives pleasure per se. This theory substitutes ethical purpose for ethical standard, stating (in essence) “the proper value is whatever you happen to value.” Objectivism rejects this formulation.
www.strongatheism.net/intro/lexicon/

It means the doctrine that each individual should seek his or her own greatest happiness, or pleasure.
www.indiainfoline.com/bisc/jmeh.html

the pursuit of pleasure as a matter of ethical principle
an ethical system that evaluates the pursuit of pleasure as the highest good
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Hedonism (Greek: hēdonē "pleasure" + –ism) describes any way of thinking that gives pleasure a central role. Hedonism can be generally summed up as "Pleasure is the highest good", or in an ethical formulation, "whatever causes pleasure is right."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism

...but they also want it NOW! GOLDANGIT!

Self control is not just limited to potty training, Dakar.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Hash

By the way, the point of the article may be totally wrong.

The article says those "who spent more time listening to music with lyrics that objectify women or praise men for their voracious sexual appetites were more likely to become sexually active earlier in their youth".

However, the causality may be reverse as well. It may be that on the contrary, those who are more likely to be sexually active earlier prefer to listen to music with the particular type of lyrics.

The whole point of the article is then lost.

WOW! Those RAND Corporation researchers, psychologists, scientists and other PhD's missed that. Quick! Send them your resume.