[I WAS the One]

OMG this is so unreal... they are showing off Tiger features as if they invented them just for Vista... every feature they're showing its like going back thru time and seeing Steve showing it for us for the first time... check it out!

Vista Presentation

[Dark Helmet]

What else is new. Sad thing is people believe them.

[I WAS the One]

yeah... sad thing... but it made me mad thoug

[G0Ducks]

So, with all of the blatant steeling going on here... Why not get litigious apple?
I guess this continues the trend since the beginning... Bill steeling from Steve... Well, their respective(or not) companies.

Honestly, I hope that apple doesn't sue. It would expend too many resources. As mac users, we can sit proud knowing that we made the right choices; either to buy one right from the get-go, or make the switch to the truly innovative class.

While I complain a ton on these boards about apple, I have to say that I would rather complain about their stuff than some second hand inherited stuff

R

[baw]

Watching that made me NOT want to buy Vista.
Win2k is by far the best OS Microsoft has developed.

Originally Posted by G0Ducks

Why not get litigious apple?

They did. They Lost.

[OreoCookie]

This is not discussing OS X directly, moving …

[Kerrigan]

I will buy it when they have Flip3DXtreme

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by G0Ducks

So, with all of the blatant steeling going on here... Why not get litigious apple?
I guess this continues the trend since the beginning... Bill steeling from Steve... Well, their respective(or not) companies.

Honestly, I hope that apple doesn't sue. It would expend too many resources. As mac users, we can sit proud knowing that we made the right choices; either to buy one right from the get-go, or make the switch to the truly innovative class.

While I complain a ton on these boards about apple, I have to say that I would rather complain about their stuff than some second hand inherited stuff

R

It's "stealing", not "steeling"

[Nai no Kami]

Originally Posted by besson3c

It's "stealing", not "steeling"

Well, he could be talking about Windows Vista Metallurgic Edition which, I think, is one of the myriad of release versions Vista will have.

[ApeInTheShell]

Last year called, they want their thread back.

[Peter]

total junk

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by I WAS the One

OMG this is so unreal... they are showing off Tiger features as if they invented them just for Vista... every feature they're showing its like going back thru time and seeing Steve showing it for us for the first time... check it out!

You realize that this video is OOOOOOOOLLLLLLDDDDDD.

-t

[I WAS the One]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

You realize that this video is OOOOOOOOLLLLLLDDDDDD.

-t

It doesn't matter, dude. it's still VISTA, it's old and it's so Tiger that make me sick. and by the way, it's new for me. I never saw that video before so, if you saw it first, congratulations.

[stevesnj]

Is flip3d the worst way to see running applications? They couldnt ever knock off Exposé right.

[voodoo]

Meh, same old M$. The only amusing thing is how that guy was talking about how things were going to be so much better than before and 'putting the user back in control' blah blah.

In essence: "everything we've made so far is crap, but this time it's really *really* good!".

The more things change...

V

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by I WAS the One

It doesn't matter, dude. it's still VISTA, it's old and it's so Tiger that make me sick. and by the way, it's new for me. I never saw that video before so, if you saw it first, congratulations.

You realize those features were announced for Vista before there was any disclosure of Tiger's features? Apple may be first to market, but they weren't first to concept.

Nevermind that Apple's been doing some of it's own ripping off ... TimeMachine

[stefanicotine]

Originally Posted by ApeInTheShell

Last year called, they want their thread back.

This is why I love these forums Hahahaha!

[seanc]

I assume you're refering to TimeMachine being similar to System Restore? It might have similar features but it seems a lot easier to use than System Restore.

[I WAS the One]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

You realize those features were announced for Vista before there was any disclosure of Tiger's features? Apple may be first to market, but they weren't first to concept.

Nevermind that Apple's been doing some of it's own ripping off ... TimeMachine

SCUSE MUA???? whatever!

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by seanc

I assume you're refering to TimeMachine being similar to System Restore? It might have similar features but it seems a lot easier to use than System Restore.

No doubt Apple "appled" it, but they hardly innovated it.

[seanc]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

No doubt Apple "appled" it, but they hardly innovated it.

True, System Restore has been around since Mistake Edition, although I never used it till I saw my friend use it in XP a couple of months ago.
There are things in Windows that I just glaze over and ignore, much like System Restore.

[Kerrigan]

True but Apple has a knack for finding technologies which consumers will want, and they do a good job making it look slick and integrating into their existing product line.

MS just looks at what Apple is doing and uses all of the same ideas, knowing that Apple has already done the work identifying which technologies will work well in its next gen OS.

[moodymonster]

expose style thing to let you see browser tabs is good

[Big Mac]

I have to say I like the live application previews floating above the task bar, as well as the application previews using alt+tab. Apple could implement such things really easily, though.

[Brass]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

You realize those features were announced for Vista before there was any disclosure of Tiger's features? Apple may be first to market, but they weren't first to concept.

Nevermind that Apple's been doing some of it's own ripping off ... TimeMachine

How can you be sure "they weren't first to concept"? Just because Apple did not publish when they first decided to include such a feature, you cannot just assume they copied it. I'm sure that in some cases they may have got the ideas from Windows, but you can't just state it as fact. Particularly in cases where for Apple to have copied it from Vista, they would have had to get it all working in record breaking time.

Many of the ideas that Apple has supposedly copied from Windows have been around in other operating systems before windows anyhow. Eg, Spotlight style "instant" searching has been around since the mid-nineties. BeOS did it much better than Apple (certatinly much faster) does 10 years later. If Apple copied it from Windows, they did an amazing job of getting it done so fast!!! More likely they got the idea from BeOS (or elsewhere), and had been working on it before Microsoft announced their intentions for Vista.

[Buckaroo]

The issue that pisses me off about M$, is that they are so concerned about catching up to the latest OS, software product or hardware product that someone else is ahead in that they ignore the crap products that they have already released. Lets take windows media for an example. It is a piece of crap. I mean real crap. Have you ever tried to scroll forward in a clip to a spot you want to watch. There is so much work needed, but they only create stuff half ass. They don't care if it works. Just as long as they have their foot in the door, so they can claim a monopoly. Now Quicktime for Wincrash ain't the best in the world, but it's better than Windows Media Viewer. If M$cam hadn't taken the monopoly, I'm sure Apple would have done a better job with Windows version of Quicktime. Now they are claiming a iPod killer, which turns out to be a lie and a piece of crap like the rest of their products.

Micro$cam, just do something right for once. FIX your previous crap.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Brass

How can you be sure "they weren't first to concept"? Just because Apple did not publish when they first decided to include such a feature, you cannot just assume they copied it. I'm sure that in some cases they may have got the ideas from Windows, but you can't just state it as fact. Particularly in cases where for Apple to have copied it from Vista, they would have had to get it all working in record breaking time.

Many of the ideas that Apple has supposedly copied from Windows have been around in other operating systems before windows anyhow. Eg, Spotlight style "instant" searching has been around since the mid-nineties. BeOS did it much better than Apple (certatinly much faster) does 10 years later. If Apple copied it from Windows, they did an amazing job of getting it done so fast!!! More likely they got the idea from BeOS (or elsewhere), and had been working on it before Microsoft announced their intentions for Vista.

Fair enough. I'm just saying that many features of Vista were announced before Tiger's features were, so M$ cannot be accused of copying them from Apple.

[Y3a]

MS is in fact INCAPABLE of producing great quality Operating Systems and Application because they just don't have a good starting point, or the intellectual systems in place to develop them. They have a crappy crew of software developers who have even less class and scope than Gates, and their products show it. Microsoft is at BEST, trailer trash apps. They appeal to mediocre PC types, who buy the cheapest and settle for the bugs and problems.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

No doubt Apple "appled" it, but they hardly innovated it.

System Restore is a versioning backup solution?

[amsalpemkcus]

I can see why Bill thought he has better things to do than sit through such presentations.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

System Restore is a versioning backup solution?

-t

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by baw

Win2k is by far the best OS Microsoft has developed.

That's what I have running in my Parallels

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Fair enough. I'm just saying that many features of Vista were announced before Tiger's features were, so M$ cannot be accused of copying them from Apple.

I agree. These features have been on developer wish lists for years. Tabbed browsing - the idea - was around years before anyone implemented it.

The same can be said about desktop search, Expose, Time Machine, etc... these are not novel Apple "inventions". And there are a ton of other wished-for features out there. Just because Apple may implement them before Microsoft doesn't mean Microsoft is copying.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Y3a

MS is in fact INCAPABLE of producing great quality Operating Systems and Application because they just don't have a good starting point, or the intellectual systems in place to develop them. They have a crappy crew of software developers who have even less class and scope than Gates, and their products show it.

You're wrong. Microsoft has plenty of top-notch developers.

Microsoft has the "disadvantage" of having a huge installed legacy base. Apple was fortunate enough to have such a small user base that they were able to unleash a next-gen OS (OS X) without having 95% of the world's computer users effectively screwed.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Microsoft's marketshare dominance has become its curse. They've developed solid prototype next-gen operating systems, but considering their corporate responsibilities, they can't pour their resources into bringing these to market because their customers would be f--ked. So they have to dumbdown innovation to satisfy their huge installed base.

Introducing Vista.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

You're wrong. Microsoft has plenty of top-notch developers.

Microsoft has the "disadvantage" of having a huge installed legacy base. Apple was fortunate enough to have such a small user base that they were able to unleash a next-gen OS (OS X) without having 95% of the world's computer users effectively screwed.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Microsoft's marketshare dominance has become its curse. They've developed solid prototype next-gen operating systems, but considering their corporate responsibilities, they can't pour their resources into bringing these to market because their customers would be f--ked. So they have to dumbdown innovation to satisfy their huge installed base.

Introducing Vista.

The only problem with this believe is those companies that have legacy software do no need to upgrade their OS. They can continue using the old OS, in fact many that are trapped with old software are still using the old DOS. It's just an excuse for horrible OS.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

You're wrong. Microsoft has plenty of top-notch developers.

Microsoft has the "disadvantage" of having a huge installed legacy base. Apple was fortunate enough to have such a small user base that they were able to unleash a next-gen OS (OS X) without having 95% of the world's computer users effectively screwed.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Microsoft's marketshare dominance has become its curse. They've developed solid prototype next-gen operating systems, but considering their corporate responsibilities, they can't pour their resources into bringing these to market because their customers would be f--ked. So they have to dumbdown innovation to satisfy their huge installed base.

Introducing Vista.

Excellent assessment

[smacintush]

In the end it really doesn't matter at all if M$ is copying Apple or anyone else (unless it gets to the point that it really is litigate-able) because if it is implemented well, people will like it and buy it. If it is implemented poorly, people will not like it and they will STILL buy it…because it's Windows. Originality doesn't really matter.

I know that I don't care which of OS X's feature's are copied, as long as they work well. OS X remains the better OS for now and on the foreseeable future.

[Brass]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

You're wrong. Microsoft has plenty of top-notch developers.

Microsoft has the "disadvantage" of having a huge installed legacy base. Apple was fortunate enough to have such a small user base that they were able to unleash a next-gen OS (OS X) without having 95% of the world's computer users effectively screwed.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Microsoft's marketshare dominance has become its curse. They've developed solid prototype next-gen operating systems, but considering their corporate responsibilities, they can't pour their resources into bringing these to market because their customers would be f--ked. So they have to dumbdown innovation to satisfy their huge installed base.

Introducing Vista.

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying it's impossible to migrate from Windows to Mac OS X, or the other way around.

Anybody using legacy OS and legacy software can continue doing so, and doesn't have to migrate to the newer OS until all their software becomes available for the new OS (or doesn't have to ever).

If MS is so good at development, then they could just release a next-gen OS which includes a backwards compatibility layer within it (ala "Classic"). If they are so good, they could make this work exceptionally well. Indeed, with today's virtualisation options, ANYBODY could do this now (the compatibility layer, that is, not the new OS).

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Brass

If MS is so good at development, then they could just release a next-gen OS which includes a backwards compatibility layer within it (ala "Classic"). If they are so good, they could make this work exceptionally well. Indeed, with today's virtualisation options, ANYBODY could do this now (the compatibility layer, that is, not the new OS).

When you have a 3% market share, sure, it's not so bad utilizing a virtualization layer in supporting legacy users when providing a new operating system platform . When you have a 95% market share, you'd be looking at a customer support disaster.

And it's not just about supporting legacy users; there are legacy peripherals as well. Mix in the fact that Microsoft doesn't manufacture the hardware that runs their OS. I can count on one finger the computer manufacturers who build machines that run OS X. Do you know how many companies build computers that run Windows? Don't forget about all the small shop folks and individual hoobyists out there.

Microsoft does have talented developers. To not think so is being naive. They recruit and hire the best they can get their hands on. They employ former Apple workers, and some of their workers are hired away by Apple.

It's a lot easier retaining a customer than it is getting a new one. I maintain that Microsoft knows that and that it affects their product development.

[baw]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

When you have a 3% market share, sure, it's not so bad utilizing a virtualization layer in supporting legacy users when providing a new operating system platform . When you have a 95% market share, you'd be looking at a customer support disaster.

And it's not just about supporting legacy users; there are legacy peripherals as well. Mix in the fact that Microsoft doesn't manufacture the hardware that runs their OS. I can count on one finger the computer manufacturers who build machines that run OS X. Do you know how many companies build computers that run Windows? Don't forget about all the small shop folks and individual hoobyists out there.

Microsoft does have talented developers. To not think so is being naive. They recruit and hire the best they can get their hands on. They employ former Apple workers, and some of their workers are hired away by Apple.

It's a lot easier retaining a customer than it is getting a new one. I maintain that Microsoft knows that and that it affects their product development.

Exactly. My place of work is still using applications that were last updated in 1995. Because of this, our systems are running NT4.

[seanc]

Originally Posted by baw

Exactly. My place of work is still using applications that were last updated in 1995. Because of this, our systems are running NT4.

Ouch

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Flip3D take longer to use than Expose.

Too many transparent windows make Aero ugly.

I don't see the point of having a live video preview thumbnail in the Taskbar when the video isn't minimized. Too many CPU cycles for nothing.

[Y3a]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

You're wrong. Microsoft has plenty of top-notch developers.

Microsoft has the "disadvantage" of having a huge installed legacy base. Apple was fortunate enough to have such a small user base that they were able to unleash a next-gen OS (OS X) without having 95% of the world's computer users effectively screwed.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Microsoft's marketshare dominance has become its curse. They've developed solid prototype next-gen operating systems, but considering their corporate responsibilities, they can't pour their resources into bringing these to market because their customers would be f--ked. So they have to dumbdown innovation to satisfy their huge installed base.

Introducing Vista.

LOL Client base isn't the issue. The percentage of folks 'screwed' would be the same regardless of OS. The problem is that MS will have to completly rewrite the ENTIRE OS to actually fix the multitude of problems they created. They won't because they don't have the software folks, or the plans, or an idea. What do YOU consider as a SOLID Prototype? MS has been removing features from Vista at such a rate, that when finally delivered, it willl be Windows 3.11.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Y3a

MS will have to completly rewrite the ENTIRE OS to actually fix the multitude of problems they created.

That's what Vista was intended to be, and the size of the tast is the reason they've been removing features.

[I WAS the One]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

That's what Vista was intended to be, and the size of the tast is the reason they've been removing features.

Vista still runs under DOS. It means that they will be delivering the same crap with other name. the day they change the DOS slavery then they will introduce a real battle. but right now they will not. if they change DOS they will loose all the costumers that need DOS as their Base OS. and that means ALL of their customers.

It will be weird but I think that the escence of OS 9 was greater because of that, it was unique. and again they killed it for OS evolution and mixed it with Unix and it's good, but I gotta admit that it was hard to me to accepted at first, I was an OS 9 Master and Guru and now I'm just a regular user...

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by I WAS the One

if they change DOS they will loose all the costumers that need DOS as their Base OS. and that means ALL of their customers.

Are you actually saying that everyone that uses Windows needs the DOS underpinnings?

[seanc]

Don't Microsoft claim that DOS is no more in the NT based OSes?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by I WAS the One

Vista still runs under DOS.

No it doesn't.

[Hawkeye_a]

Where does the BIOS fit into the non-DOS based PCs ? (forgive my ignorance o nthe issue, i havent had anything to do with Windows since Win98)

[Y3a]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

That's what Vista was intended to be, and the size of the tast is the reason they've been removing features.

Because......??? They can't actually perfect the code to WORK? HOw many 'features' HAVE they removed?