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Cody Dawg · Sep 28, 2006, 10:59 AM

Here's the scenario.

Moved to a new community. There is a guy a few doors down that has a little dog, adorable little dog, and he apparently does not treat this dog well. He lets it run around loose and it has come down to our house begging for food (we saw it one day trying to scrape a piece of hotdog out from under our grill). Another day he was walking the dog and he didn't walk it fast enough and he kicked it - it weighs 8 pounds max. It cried. I said, "You know, if you don't have time for your dog me or my kids will be glad to walk it or take care of it." I honestly thought that he might have a lightbulb go off in his head like, "I'll give them the dog."

Anyway, so he's been warned about keeping his dog under his control, on a leash, and the lady next to him reported him for dog abuse for beating on this little dog.

This morning I went out to get a cup of coffee and there is the dog, laying outside my back door. I let it in. It is filthy dirty and thin and hungry.

What do I do? Do I do what I normally do (I volunteer for animal shelters here locally with fundraising, etc.) and take it to animal control where he will inevitably get the dog back? Or do I keep it here in my home and take care of it? Dog has no tags, nothing on it, just dirty and thin and hungry.

I am having a real moral dilemma about it.

I feel very bad and angry and upset.

Advice please everyone? Poor little dog.

Millennium · Sep 28, 2006, 11:13 AM

First things first, take the dog to a vet. Tell them you found the dog on your doorstep, and it looks like it needs medical attention, but don't tell them that you know who the owner is. There are two reasons for taking the dog to the vet. One: it probably really does need medical attention if it's in the condition you describe. Two: while you're there, find out if it has an ID chip or tattoo.

Cody Dawg · Sep 28, 2006, 11:18 AM

Yes, that's what I'm going to do. I just gave it a bath and it is crawling with fleas - I think I washed off about 100 fleas. Second thing, under it's tail it is caked with crap. It was disgusting.

I feel so sorry for the dog. It cowers when you try to pet it or pick it up, also.

Big Mac · Sep 28, 2006, 11:19 AM

Good suggestions, Millennium. I doubt it has any ID, though - such a negligent owner wouldn't go to that expense.

Millennium · Sep 28, 2006, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Good suggestions, Millennium. I doubt it has any ID, though - such a negligent owner wouldn't go to that expense.

I know; that's the point. Cody, you said that the dog has no tags now: do you know if it's ever had tags, or something else the owner could use to prove that he owns the dog?

If there's a chip or tattoo, then there's not much you can do, though make sure that they're actually registered to the person you're calling "the owner". I'm not going to accuse him of abducting someone else's dog, but perhaps he took it in as a stray and there's a "real" owner somewhere who isn't him.

If he can prove he owns the dog but the vet gives the dog back to you to return to him, then take the dog to animal control, let them know you know who the owner is, and call him. If he really wants the dog back he can pick it up from there. Talk with the animal control folks and ask how long the owner has to pick the dog up before it's considered abandoned; if the owner still hasn't picked up the dog by then, do whatever you feel is right.

Millennium · Sep 28, 2006, 11:47 AM

If the owner can't prove that he owns the dog, call him and offer to take it off his hands. If he wants it back then give it back, but if he declines or delays then start the process of legally claiming ownership yourself (treat it as though you were adopting a stray: it's the closest match). Once he's yours, the ex-owner can no longer change his mind.

Theoretically you could start this process without offering to take the dog off his hands. This is, however, quite underhanded, and it's definitely violating the spirit of the law (and possibly also the letter of the law). But if you have documents and tags to prove ownership while he doesn't, then he would have a very hard time fighting you in court, if he really decided to go that far.

Cody Dawg · Sep 28, 2006, 11:48 AM

No tags. He sure is having fun with my little son. He's clean and I gave him some food and water and now he's playing with a dog toy and he really loves playing with my son. He brings him the ball and drops it off at his feet, my son throws it, and he brings it back. He's not afraid of my son at all (he's 2) but if I try to pet him or pick him up he cowers. Very sad.

I have an appointment to be at in 15 minutes, too! I called and put it off for an hour - life throws wrenches into the cogs sometimes, I guess.

Millennium · Sep 28, 2006, 11:55 AM

It sounds like the dog is afraid of things that are bigger than he is, which is pretty much everything at this point. Try sitting down or even laying down before you pet him: you'll seem smaller, so he should be at least somewhat less afraid.

Any idea what kind of dog he is?

Cody Dawg · Sep 28, 2006, 12:07 PM

He's a Norfolk terrier.

He's very very sweet. Now he's decided he likes me. I have a friend who's a cop and I called him and he said that in the time frame of 9 months, since the guy moved in, he's had 9 calls about that dog and that man and that house.

He said that even though people are calling about him and about how he treats the dog it still won't make much difference.

My only chance is to let animal control know that I have the dog and that's it. He may come in and pick up the dog and that will be that - and it will probably come back down to our home.

I'm going up there later today.

Weird situation and sad situation also.

Big Mac · Sep 28, 2006, 12:23 PM

If he gets the dog back you could file a complaint with the Humane Society.

Cody Dawg · Sep 28, 2006, 12:34 PM

Yes, I can and will.

But, maybe I'll bribe him with cold hard cash. Hasn't been the first time and won't be the last.

I'll be nice about it, but firm.

I stopped working with rescue when we found out we were expecting another baby, but these situations come up regardless of my own intentions. My heart breaks with these types of situations. The dog is now asleep on my bed. Judging by his teeth he is about two years old.

He's very very quiet and sweet.

Big Mac · Sep 28, 2006, 12:41 PM

That's a very touching story. You're doing a great thing helping the dog. It sounds like you have a lot of excitement to contend with right now.

brassplayersrock² · Sep 28, 2006, 01:06 PM

again with the cash thing cody.

this time though for a bad reason.... if you give him cash for wanting a dog that this guy has obvously been abusing. then who cant say that the guy might just go pick up another dog when he wants more money and start abusing it as well, so that you would give him money for that dog? sad but true, people these days, ya know?

Alex

Cody Dawg · Sep 28, 2006, 01:08 PM

You're right.

I won't do it.

I just think that 95% of the world shouldn't have dogs - or children.

starman · Sep 28, 2006, 01:25 PM

So what happens when you take the thing for a walk and your neighbor sees it?

Gossamer · Sep 28, 2006, 01:28 PM

He won't recognize it when it's clean

Big Mac · Sep 28, 2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You're right.

I won't do it.

I just think that 95% of the world shouldn't have dogs - or children.

It sounds like you don't think very highly of humanity.

Millennium · Sep 28, 2006, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I have a friend who's a cop and I called him and he said that in the time frame of 9 months, since the guy moved in, he's had 9 calls about that dog and that man and that house.

That's what I was afraid of. I don't know if this guy would be smart (stupid?) enough to use the police reports to prove that he owned the dog, but theoretically he could do so.

My only chance is to let animal control know that I have the dog and that's it. He may come in and pick up the dog and that will be that - and it will probably come back down to our home.

I'm going up there later today.

Maybe he won't pick it up in time. Animal shelters are often full to bursting, so the "grace period" before they consider the dog abandoned is often rather short. It may be only a few days.

In any case, if you are lucky enough to get the opportunity to take the dog in, get proof of ownership as soon as possible. A chip and/or tattoo are musts. Even if you eventually decide to take the dog to rescue or give him to a good home, the fact that the dog was given to them by its lawful owner at the time should guard against the possibility of this jerk being able to get the dog back from them.

Y3a · Sep 28, 2006, 02:12 PM

getting video of him kicking the dog could have helped too.

Millennium · Sep 28, 2006, 09:50 PM

My wife has another piece of advice: call the ASPCA on this. One, they can reimburse you for the vet visit and then fine the owner to recoup the cost of doing that. Two, if they find further evidence of cruelty (which sounds likely), they can actually confiscate the dog and then place him with you.

I'd heard of the ASPCA, but I didn't realize they were actually a government organization. They sound like a good match for your situation, ay any rate.

Cody Dawg · Sep 28, 2006, 10:17 PM

The problem is this: It becomes well known that *I* have his dog - and if it becomes *my* dog and he knows where I live and he's violent (which he is - he beats up his dog) then my @$$ might be grass, you know?

I'm really in a quandary about the entire thing. Went to animal control and they listened and didn't process anything at all so that my name isn't on record. I can go back tomorrow.

In the meantime, I feel like crap - literally.

Gamoe · Sep 29, 2006, 01:02 AM

Cody, I would be very careful to get animal control or the law involved. It may bring unnecessary complication into your life. If you're inclined to, perhaps you can simply find someone outside your neighborhood who's interested in the dog and give the dog to that person.

If you want to keep the dog yourself, on the other hand, then yes, the situation becomes more complicated. Even if you were to have "lawful custody" of the dog, you might still have problems with this disturbed man. And again, I say don't get the law involved unless it's absolutely necessary and you know what you're doing.

I originally checked this thread because I thought you were looking for a dog. It just so happens that I have two lost dogs I've been taking care of. I haven't called animal control because far too often they tend to "control" animals by killing them. I haven't been able to find the owner(s) after many weeks of searching, and I'm looking for a good home to give them to. If you know any one...

zro · Sep 29, 2006, 03:05 AM

You should not let your 2 year old play with a dog that's frightened of people. Especially since you don't know if it's had shots.

Take him to the vet like was first suggested, and in the case of no ID, find someone yourself to care for the dog (meaning not you due to proximity). If there is an ID, then would be a great time to spill the beans.

And you're probably right, this loser sounds like the kind of guy that would turn into a pain in the ass or worse should he realize you were the one to liberate his victim.

Millennium · Sep 29, 2006, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

The problem is this: It becomes well known that *I* have his dog - and if it becomes *my* dog and he knows where I live and he's violent (which he is - he beats up his dog) then my @$$ might be grass, you know?

This is true, but if you keep the dog then you run this risk no matter what method you use.

When I mentioned starting the process to get lawful custody of the dog, I didn't necessarily mean that you should keep the dog permanently yourself (you can if you want, though; that's your call). It's more an issue of protection: this way, if you give the dog to somebody else, you were the dog's lawful owner when you did so. It protects the dog's eventual owner as much as it protects you, because the guy would have to take you (or the new owner) to court to get the dog back, and even if he decides to go that far he'll have a very hard time of it if he can't prove that he ever owned it in the first place. Also, although I can't be sure exactly what the laws about abducting animals are in your state, you sidestep the whole issue by becoming the dog's lawful owner: another form of legal protection.

This is also one of the reasons that the ASPCA may be a good idea. If the dog is confiscated from him on grounds of cruelty, then the police reports become basically worthless as proof that he owned the dog, because they also show the record of cruelty that caused the dog to be confiscated in the first place.

That's the problem with the whole situation. You are clearly in the right, but doing the right thing is going to require some tactics that might be considered underhanded by some. For that reason, it's important to protect yourself.

Cody Dawg · Sep 29, 2006, 07:26 AM

Yes, all of you are right about all of it.

The problem is that animal control and humane society here locally both said that chances are 99.9% that he'll get the dog back. They said that even in cases where dogs were underfed or left outside chained to trees that the judge gives the animal back. Why? Because it's considered property first and the living environment is considered second. So, because pets are property he has a right to his property. They said it is very frustrating to have an owner who clearly should not have an animal - and the judge awards the animal back to the owner.

It's pretty sad.

Millennium · Sep 29, 2006, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yes, all of you are right about all of it.

The problem is that animal control and humane society here locally both said that chances are 99.9% that he'll get the dog back. They said that even in cases where dogs were underfed or left outside chained to trees that the judge gives the animal back. Why? Because it's considered property first and the living environment is considered second. So, because pets are property he has a right to his property. They said it is very frustrating to have an owner who clearly should not have an animal - and the judge awards the animal back to the owner.

It's pretty sad.

That's why I suggested trying to claim ownership. If he can't prove that he owns the dog but you can prove that you own it, then the law has little choice but to give the dog to you. Technically it's twisting the law around to suit your purpose, but I don't think anyone's going to argue that you're doing anything wrong.

This is also why I suggested bringing the ASPCA into things. They carry a lot of clout: perhaps more than they really should, but in this case it works to your and the dog's advantage. You may also want to do some research on the laws in your area, and see if he could legally be considered to have abandoned the dog. If he's truly this negligent then it's possible that he has technically "abandoned" it without knowing he's done so, in which case the way is clear for you to step in.

mitchell_pgh · Sep 29, 2006, 08:47 AM

The problem is, people love little puppies, but don't think about the longevity of such an animals.

Also, mistreating animals is simply despicable.

Cody Dawg · Sep 30, 2006, 01:21 AM

Update.

The dog is at the animal shelter with the county. It is being taken care of and I have volunteered to legally adopt it if possible.

hart · Oct 1, 2006, 03:20 PM

I see you've moved on this but I was thinking about the idea of taking it to a shelter that is not near your home. get a friend in the next county to turn it in or something. it isn't likely that he would look for it there and it would have a chance of being adopted by someone nicer.

When we had a dog show up on our doorstep several times, a beagle who is just allowed to roam the SPCA said if you take it to the shelter there is a time limit on how long the owner has to claim it before you can adopt the dog.

D. S. Troyer · Oct 1, 2006, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Update.

The dog is at the animal shelter with the county. It is being taken care of and I have volunteered to legally adopt it if possible.

Just wondering Cody, how many animals do you have? Seems like you're always taking in some poor creature.

Cody Dawg · Oct 2, 2006, 10:07 AM

I've rescued and rehomed about 90 dogs, cats, rabbits, and parrots over about 10 years. All of them received veterinary care, basic obedience, and housebreaking if necessary.

However, we've never kept any of them because I always felt that we should keep our home and hearts open to help another animal that came along.

I took him to the local shelter because then the guy can't say that his ability to pick up the dog was impeded. As of today he has not come by to check and has not called to see if the dog was turned in. Just a few more days to go and the dog can come back to our home - legally.

Peter · Oct 2, 2006, 10:38 AM

Cody

good karma.

Cody Dawg · Oct 2, 2006, 10:59 AM

Maybe. I just feel sorry for them. You look in their eyes and they are 100% dependent on us humans to provide for them and take care of them.

We're going up there this afternoon to play with him and take him a treat. We've been there every day since since taking him in. I brought him a dog bed to lay on and some toys and some Greenie bits (chew treats). I just hope he isn't feeling too anxious up there with all of those huge dogs around him. The nice thing is that they put a sign on his kennel that says, "ON HOLD" so that if someone comes in and wants to adopt him they know that he's spoken for.

I've spent $350 on that dog so far for vet care including tests and an x-ray to see if he had a broken bone (he didn't but did have a thorn in the pad of his foot), vaccinations, grooming, heartworm meds, antibiotics (he has a sore on his bum from where he had crap caked there for too long and it caused an abcess), food, treats, and toys. You know what? I don't mind in the least because he doesn't even look like the same dog. When we got him he weighed 8.2 pounds and now he's up to 9.6 pounds in only a few days.

Gossamer · Oct 2, 2006, 11:09 AM

Wow, that's awesome, good for you

kmkkid · Oct 2, 2006, 01:01 PM

You put off work for a dog? I'm sorry but the dog can wait till more important things are done before it gets showered with attention.

That may sound bad, but our human lives comes before the animal world imo.

Cody Dawg · Oct 2, 2006, 01:19 PM

What?

I'm not working today and when I do work I work from home. I'm married and have children to take care of at home and right now we're expecting a baby so I'm on pregnancy leave besides.

Besides, that's a strange post because I think that sometimes - just sometimes - animals DO come before our own personal lives.

brassplayersrock² · Oct 2, 2006, 01:22 PM

don't worry about him Cody, eveyone has their oppions, and that is how kmkkid feels. you're doing a good thing

Alex

kmkkid · Oct 2, 2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What?

I'm not working today and when I do work I work from home. I'm married and have children to take care of at home and right now we're expecting a baby so I'm on pregnancy leave besides.

Besides, that's a strange post because I think that sometimes - just sometimes - animals DO come before our own personal lives.

Sorry if I misunderstood, you said you put off an interview for the dog, I assumed it was your work.

Cody Dawg · Oct 2, 2006, 01:48 PM

Oh, the other day - yes, I did put off a meeting for the dog.

Good memory and paying attention.

It's okay. The dog was in bad shape and I was very upset and I would have made a very bad impression meeting anyone. I just delayed it, that's all.

andi*pandi · Oct 2, 2006, 02:28 PM

poor pup. sounds like he'll be better off now.

Cody Dawg · Oct 8, 2006, 10:07 AM

Well, we picked him up yesterday. Two notices were sent to the home on record for the dog (animal control was told where the dog had supposedly lived and they had nuisance calls on file for the same address) as well as animal control going to the home and the "owner" never came in to pick up the dog. Figures, because he is out of town (flies to South America) all of the time.

I was so happy to go get him and bring him home - and he is thrilled to be back here.

So, it's a happy ending - legally.

Thanks for your support on this issue!