[itai195]

This is a bit OT for a Mac forum, but I thought you might enjoy the absurdity of this. This auction is basically for a common 2003 penny, and apparently it's worth over $13,000! I wonder how many more pennies just this nice I have in my pocket... If it wasn't in a piece of plastic it'd be worth 1 cent.

Some people just have way more money than brains.

Edit: And btw, the auction doesn't close until 10PM EST tonight. I bet it hits $30k.

[turtle777]

-t

[alligator]

I'm going to wait until 6:59 p.m. tonight and bid $13,000.01 and win this baby! Never in my life have I seen such a perfect example of an almost worthless piece of metal!

[olePigeon]

What's so rare about it?

[Rumor]

So, if I get new change that hasn't been touched by human hands, put it in a plastic case, wait 3 years, I can sell for $13000?

[D. S. Troyer]

To produce a 1 cent piece costs 1.5 cents worth of copper. I thought they were getting thinner!

[Dr. Wahnsinn]

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn the the auction house is owned by the same guys who sell coins and currency at incredibly inflated prices on TV.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

What's so rare about it?

It received the maximum grade that a coin can receive, and is the only modern penny (1959-2006) to have received that grade. However, people don't usually send in modern pennies for grading because they're so common and grading is relatively expensive. There are probably thousands, maybe millions, of other pennies out there as nice as this one.

[mac128k-1984]

I'll bet you that penny all of those bids are bogus

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984

I'll bet you that penny all of those bids are bogus

You are really willing to risk something there

-t

[itai195]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984

I'll bet you that penny all of those bids are bogus

I doubt it, there really are people out there willing to drop that kind of cash on a penny. A 1950 nickel sold for $15,000 just a couple weeks ago. In both cases, they're really spending that money on the plastic holder and certification because if you took either coin out of its holder it'd be worth nothing more than face value.

[rickey939]

Inflation.

[Big Mac]

And just a couple months ago they were saying pennies were worthless!

I have never heard of grading coins before. Maybe we all have thousands stashed away in our couches...

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally Posted by D. S. Troyer

To produce a 1 cent piece costs 1.5 cents worth of copper. I thought they were getting thinner!

uh, they haven't been solid copper for a while now.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Mint grade coins actually aren't the same as a common coin you'd have in your pocket. They're struck more times with a special grade of die, so the finish is sharper and far more polished. If you look at a mint set, the valleys appear black in contrast to the peaks. There's probably a better quality of the metal too.

Unless you buy a mint set (usually encased in plastic), no, you don't have mint grade coins just 'laying around', they're never circulated.

If that coin is truly authentic, and is actually one-of-a-kind, then serious collectors would gladly pay $13Gs for it. If it's truly unique, it'll be worth it. (I'd even think worth far more).

Anything completely unique coming from a mint is going to be a collector's item- like a small group of coins with screwed up mint marks that make it to circulation, or rare stamps with elements printed upside down.

I'd be curious what makes this a grade higher than other mint coins of the same year, and why there would only be one. Maybe it was struck even more times than other coins, and the die couldn't be reused afterward.

[itai195]

Crash, that's not exactly true. I think you are thinking of proof coins. You can get mint state coins out of circulation, they just likely would not have circulated for very long at all. They might have just come out of a bank roll and you were the first person to get the coin. This should be obvious. Mint state coins exist in 19th century coin series too, but the mint didn't sell mint sets back then. People just hoarded the coins before they had a chance to circulate. Hell, there are 19th century coins that have been salvaged from shipwrecks at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean that received mint state grades.

That said, this particular cent looks like it may have come out of a plastic-encased mint set due to the satin finish. But even then, millions of those sets are produced per year. Over 47 years, billions of mint state cents have been produced and never circulated. The fact of the matter is that there are likely many other MS 70 cents out there that simply haven't been graded, and the mint is still producing billions more cents each year. This is the case with all modern minted coins with unlimited mintage, not just cents. Now that this coin has been hyped up, you can expect to see tons more collectors submitting cents for grading, and many more MS 70 cents hitting the market soon. Eventually supply will approach demand, and MS 70 cents will be worth far less than $13,000. So this coin may be unique for now, but it won't be for very long.

To highlight the absurdity of this auction, the same coin in a PCGS MS69 holder, ONE GRADE LOWER and hardly perceptible to 99.9999% of people, is maybe worth $100 on a good day.

[D. S. Troyer]

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

uh, they haven't been solid copper for a while now.

Hmmm, I don't remember saying they were.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by itai195

Crash, that's not exactly true. You can get mint state coins out of circulation, they just likely would not have circulated for very long at all. They might have just come out of a bank roll and you were the first person to get the coin.

I'm not a coin expert by any means, but I'm sure that's incorrect. 'Mint' is actually a grade issued to a proof set struck very specifically as such by a mint. Even many plastic encased sets you buy from say, a coin shop, are proof sets, but haven't actually been graded 'mint'. An actual mint graded coin has a higher value. And apparently there are even different grades of mint.

Regular circulated coins are mass produced with a different die that's used on hundreds of thousands of others just like it, and only struck once, (maybe twice, I forget). If you're pulling it out of a roll for the very first time, then it'd be an "uncirculated" grade of circulated coin, but not mint.

I don't even think a mint grade coin can even be exposed out of its case without an instant downgrade to proof- so the idea of one being scraped around against a bunch of other coins in a roll... kind of like using steel wool to clean your camera lens.

[itai195]

Crash, I've been collecting coins for a number of years, so I know quite a bit about what I'm talking about

Proof coins are an entirely different matter. They are manufactured differently, theoretically never circulate, and are graded differently. They are struck multiple times on special polished planchets using highly polished dies. Proof coins never get a mint state grade, they are graded as either 'Proof' or one of a range of circulated grades.

Mint state coins are typically any regular strike coin that has not circulated. The term 'mint state' is really a fancy way of saying 'uncirculated' and before the days of grading services, these coins were simply called uncirculated coins. The more precise definition for grading purposes is that the devices on the coin should not show any wear from circulation. If they do show wear, the coin will grade in a range of circulated grades. Bag marks from bags or rolls; small scrapes and abrasions; weak strikes; and breaks in luster generally are not enough to get a coin downgraded into 'circulated' state. It's wear that usually causes that. As a result, you can often find coins in circulated grades that actually look nicer than mint state coins.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by itai195

Now that this coin has been hyped up, you can expect to see tons more collectors submitting cents for grading, and many more MS 70 cents hitting the market soon. Eventually supply will approach demand, and MS 70 cents will be worth far less than $13,000. So this coin may be unique for now, but it won't be for very long.

I'm not really sure who does the grading and how, but then again I'm no expert in grading diamonds either- and there are experts who do that too and I'm sure will tell you that no matter how much you or I can't see any difference in a low graded diamond and one that's very rare- it's there, and it's not as arbitrary as maybe either of us would like the grading to be. Heck, glass looks just as good as a good jewel to me- I can't freakin' tell.

Dies don't last forever and can only make so many coins. The first few coins to be struck are probably as close to flawless as could ever be expected- so those would be MS70.

Thousands of strikings later, that quality is going to drop off sharply as the die actually deteriorates and develops flaws. The highest graded coins are probably the first few hundred or so struck, and coin experts who really know such things can probably tell which ones those are. (The Mint apparently can't grade coins itself, so it's left up to outside experts.)

So Tom Dick and Joe can tout their coins and hope experts will grant them the highest grade all they want- but they chances are probably just like anything else- a handful out of millions.

[porieux]

...

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by itai195

Crash, I've been collecting coins for a number of years, so I know quite a bit about what I'm talking about

Sorry, yeah you're right that mint are high grade circulated coins, not proof coins. I confused the terms. Like I said, I'm no coin expert. Still, I think whoever grades the quality of a mint coin does so by how early it was struck, and therefore how flawless it is.

[olePigeon]

It's a far right-wing conspiracy to raise the value of U.S. currency!

[MacNStein]

It's MS70, of course it's gonna be worth this much. Pennies in MS69+ are exceptionally rare, even in proof sets. Only the first 20-100 coins from a particular dye have any chance of being MS70, and it's a very slim chance at that. Especially considering that after the strike almost every coin is going to be scuffed by the packaging process. I think it's just amazing that someone found a circulated penny in MS70.

If I were a real coin collector (I dabble a bit in silver and gold) I'd pay $15K for it.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

It's MS70, of course it's gonna be worth this much. Pennies in MS69+ are exceptionally rare, even in proof sets. Only the first 20-100 coins from a particular dye have any chance of being MS70, and it's a very slim chance at that. Especially considering that after the strike almost every coin is going to be scuffed by the packaging process. I think it's just amazing that someone found a circulated penny in MS70.

If I were a real coin collector (I dabble a bit in silver and gold) I'd pay $15K for it.

It's strange that there is nothing unusual about this penny other than its MS70 grade. No odd mintmark, design flaw etc. MS70 coins are rare, but not so rare as to command such a price normally.

I see PF70 and MS70 PCGS coins on ebay all the time and although they get higher bids than MS69 coins, they are considerably less than $13,000. I saw a PF70 American Platinum Eagle priced at $3,200 so I really don't get it.

Personally, I'm moving away from graded coins, to some extent the grading process is subjective anyway and the plastic tomb the coin is in dimishes it somehow IMO.

[forkies]

can someone explain the reason why people are collectors?

[itai195]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

It's MS70, of course it's gonna be worth this much. Pennies in MS69+ are exceptionally rare, even in proof sets.

They are comparatively rare but the mint still makes billions more pennies each year, so I think it's simply a bad bet. That's true of all modern coins in my opinion. Also, people that pay thousands of dollars for MS70 American Eagles don't make any sense to me, because almost every eagle minted nowadays is MS69 or MS70, and the mint shows no sign of stopping any time soon.

That said, $13k isn't quite as much as I thought it'd sell for. It suggests that potential buyers at least recognized that this coin won't be unique for very long.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by forkies

can someone explain the reason why people are collectors?

As far a coins are concerned, I think it can be an interest in history or an appreciation for the design. Coins often reflect the style or sentiment of the time. After WWI, there was a coin called the "Peace Dollar". It was the first, and I think only coin, where the eagle on the back had its wings folded, rather than in an open warlike position. Other coins have an art deco design. Hey, some people even collects macs.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

I'm not really sure who does the grading and how, but then again I'm no expert in grading diamonds either- and there are experts who do that too and I'm sure will tell you that no matter how much you or I can't see any difference in a low graded diamond and one that's very rare- it's there, and it's not as arbitrary as maybe either of us would like the grading to be. Heck, glass looks just as good as a good jewel to me- I can't freakin' tell.

Well that's true, but graders are only human and grading companies frequently make mistakes. This is why the mantra most collectors should follow is buy the coin, not the holder. People who tend to spend thousands more on a condition rarity of common, modern coin are usually more concerned over registry set points than anything else. And I think that degrades the hobby, personally.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by forkies

can someone explain the reason why people are collectors?

It's a fun hobby, IMO. The coins are little works of art, and personally I also love the connection to history. There are many coin designs and individual coins out there that have fascinating pedigrees. Also it's not a bad way to blow hobby money, since rare coins are somewhat liquid assets that usually at least hold their value over the years. Some people collect for investment purposes, but personally I don't think rare coins make good investments. Collecting is also a good way to exercise one's obsessive-compulsive side by completing nice sets of coins

Personally I mostly collect 20th century half dollars and US silver/gold type coins.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

It's strange that there is nothing unusual about this penny other than its MS70 grade. No odd mintmark, design flaw etc. MS70 coins are rare, but not so rare as to command such a price normally.

I see PF70 and MS70 PCGS coins on ebay all the time and although they get higher bids than MS69 coins, they are considerably less than $13,000. I saw a PF70 American Platinum Eagle priced at $3,200 so I really don't get it.

Personally, I'm moving away from graded coins, to some extent the grading process is subjective anyway and the plastic tomb the coin is in dimishes it somehow IMO.

reread my post.

platinum American Eagles are special mintings, ie. greater care taken, better dyes, multi-strike proofs, etc..

Only 2 pennies of this type have ever been found in MS/PS 70 in the last 30+ years. (The auction claims that it's the only one, but another service graded one at MS70 4 years ago.)

The important thing to realize here is that this is a standard, single-strike, CIRCULATED MS70 penny. It's not a proof, not a special set, nothing like that. It's one of the most rare coins of it's type in the whole of the hobby.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

The important thing to realize here is that this is a standard, single-strike, CIRCULATED MS70 penny. It's not a proof, not a special set, nothing like that. It's one of the most rare coins of it's type in the whole of the hobby.

IMO it came from an uncirculated mint set, there's no other way it could have avoided having at least some bag marks. I also still think the main reason there aren't more modern circulated coins in MS 70 is because nobody submits them for grading. It's a gamble with a low probability of success -- what's the point of spending $15 - or more - plus shipping to get a cent graded if the payoff is likely to be ridiculously low?

If people want to pay $13k for this coin that's fine, I just don't think it's worth it. A modern cent, even in a rare MS 70 grade, is just not an interesting collectible IMO. I'd personally rather have almost any 'generic' circulated gold series coin in MS 63-65 for a fraction of that price. At least those have some history, artistic merit, and a base metal value.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

reread my post.

platinum American Eagles are special mintings, ie. greater care taken, better dyes, multi-strike proofs, etc..

Only 2 pennies of this type have ever been found in MS/PS 70 in the last 30+ years. (The auction claims that it's the only one, but another service graded one at MS70 4 years ago.)

The important thing to realize here is that this is a standard, single-strike, CIRCULATED MS70 penny. It's not a proof, not a special set, nothing like that. It's one of the most rare coins of it's type in the whole of the hobby.

I read and understood your post the first time and being a collector of proof coins I know that they use polished dyes and are struck multiple times. Its just that as Itai195 mentioned, perhaps the reason there haven't been many of these commonly available cents graded is because no one sends them in. A MS69 2003 penny would be worth. . . 1 cent--plus the cost of the plastic surrounding it. I bet if you got a bag of uncirculated cents from the mint (even though most would get bag marks knocking into each other) there would be one or two which might grade as MS70.

However, coin collecting is a hobby so if a perfect MS70 2003 penny is something you'll enjoy then its worth it. It doesn't matter.

I'm just irritated that I missed out on the reverse proof Gold Eagle that came out this year. grrrr. Did anyone get one of those?

[itai195]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

I'm just irritated that I missed out on the reverse proof Gold Eagle that came out this year. grrrr. Did anyone get one of those?

I actually ordered a set and then changed my mind

I probably should've at least kept the order and sold it on eBay but I didn't want to bother. You'll be able to get one slabbed on eBay in not too long I'm sure, for a modest markup!

Personally I am still seething about that 1995-W proof silver eagle... Now there is a modern coin with some appeal, but only because of the vast legions of collectors currently putting together silver eagle proof sets.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

This site has the MS60-70 definitions.

Doesn't sound very likely that people will "just find" anything even approaching the higher 60's MS states just laying around, and MS-70 only with some sort of superior preservation, not to mention an exceptional early-strike coin to begin with:

MS-69
This is for "Mint State" (the grade) and "69" (the numerical designation of that grade). Virtually perfect in all departments, including wondrous surfaces, a 99% full strike (or better), full unbroken booming luster and show-stopping eye appeal. You may have to study this coin with a 5X glass to find the reason why it didn’t grade MS70.

MS-70
This is for "Mint State" (the grade) and "70" (the numerical designation of that grade). A perfect coin! Even with 5X magnification there are no marks, hairlines or luster breaks in evidence. The luster is vibrant, the strike is razor-sharp, and the eye appeal is the ultimate. Note: Minor die polish and light die breaks are not considered to be defects on circulation strike coins.

I'm sure there may be a lot of MS-70 coins out there that haven't been graded, but having one of them is probably akin to having a winning lottery ticket worth the same amount.