[driven]

Short version of all this:

- My sister (who lives on the same street as me) and her husband stole a neighbors dog.

Basically the dog ran away (like it aways does) and it went by my sisters house (presumably to hump her other dog.) My sister liked it, and took it to the vet. The vet said that the dog had a tape worm and was malnurished. (probably due to the tape worm)

My other neighbor told her who's dog it was.

My sister called animal control where some city employee told her that if she couldn't find the owner in 5 days that she could keep the dog and that they didn't want to have any part of it.

She called me and asked what the right thing to do was. I told her to bring it back to the owner.

She decided that because the dog was "abused" that she would keep it. (Her husband used the word "stole it".)

Then, the neighbor said "boy, that dog looks just like my dog" to which she said "Nope, this one's mine. Sorry you lost yours." I almost freaked! I kept my mouth shut instead of starting trouble and causing family grief.

Short version ... eventually the dog ran home. (With HER name on the collar). They called her up and told her where to get off.

Now: At this point I would have been humiliated and hid my head in shame (not that I would have ever done that in the first place, but if I did, I'd have to crawl under a rock). Instead, her husband walks over to the house and asks for money for the vet bill! Balls! They actually gave it to him. (I would have called the cops).


NOW: I can't get this out of my head. I'm mortified. I hate to go outside. I'm losing sleep. Everyone knows I'm related to her so I sort of feel guilty by association. I'm almost ready to move.

Am I over-reacting? Should I forget about this?

(Just posting this here in the hopes that will have a cathartic effect and let me get my mind back.)

[starman]

Do you live on Cody's street?

[Dakar]

Oh snap.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by starman

Do you live on Cody's street?

That was my first thought

[RAILhead]

Uhhh...get over it?

Yes, you're TOTALLY over-reacting.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by starman

Do you live on Cody's street?

Beat me to it

[driven]

Why ? Did Cody have a dog taken?
EDIT: I just read the other thread .... heh heh ... ironic.


Railhead: Fair enough.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by driven

Why ? Did Cody have a dog taken?

No, but check out the story. It sounds like she's handling this better than your sister, though.

[Chuckit]

These people neglected their dog to the point where it had to run to another family to receive essential medical care. Your sister at least shouldn't be the most embarrassed person in this situation.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

These people neglected their dog to the point where it had to run to another family to receive essential medical care. Your sister at least shouldn't be the most embarrassed person in this situation.

Except that there wasn't anything really wrong with the dog. If it was underweight it wasn't noticable by looking at it. It was clean, well groomed, had a collar on it and the people went looking for it.

Personally I think the "abuse" claim was simply my sister trying to justify her actions to herself.

I think the dog ran to her house to get laid ... no other reason.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by driven

Except that there wasn't anything really wrong with the dog.

Didn't the vet say it was malnourished and had a tapeworm? I guess I wasn't there, but that sounded pretty wrong to me.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Didn't the vet say it was malnourished and had a tapeworm? I guess I wasn't there, but that sounded pretty wrong to me.

That's the way she phrased it. Just what I know about animals, if it had a tapeworm that would absolutely lead to malnurishment without abuse being involved. (We had one in our dog which was corrected with meds from the vet.)

Either way I'd have at least talked to the owners first. They seem like nice enough people. (A bit angry now obviously). I certainly wouldn't have lied to their face when they asked about the dog. (Twice actually). They even made up this whole story at one point that they raised the dog since it was a pup. (Even though nobody ever saw this dog until the precise moment that their dog disappeared.)

I love my sister, but this just seems wrong.

[MaxPower2k3]

I can't believe the neighbor ever believed that it wasn't theirs. I don't know what kind of dog it is, but I had a Golden Retriever, which can be a fairly generic looking dog, and I'm quite sure I could spot her immediately out of a crowd.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Didn't the vet say it was malnourished and had a tapeworm? I guess I wasn't there, but that sounded pretty wrong to me.

Yes, but a tapeworm isn't enough to indicate that the dog is being abused. Dogs can pick up tapeworms from all sorts of places. Certainly many abusers don't feed their dogs properly, but the presence of a tapeworm throws the "malnourishment as evidence of abuse" bit into doubt. From what driven is saying, the malnourishment was the only thing wrong with the dog.

Check out the thread with Cody. The dog in that case is certainly malnourished, but it also showed up filthy, covered in fleas, and terrified of adults. None of these is conclusive evidence of abuse by itself, but when they're put together the case becomes a lot stronger. In the case of this thread, though, we don't have that: there's only one factor, and there's a plausible explanation for that factor that involves no abuse at all.

[driven]

I'm sure they knew. I think they were just being polite and giving her an opportunity to say she "found" it.

Anyway ... thanks for the feedback y'all. 'tis appreciated.

[Cody Dawg]

What a story. The point is that the dog shouldn't have been out roaming around, period. What kind of an owner lets their dog run around loose? Seriously? Personally, I think that that is neglect - and abuse.

Your sister would have been better off to do what we did: Take it to animal control and play wait-and-see. After 5 days the dog could have been legally hers.

I have to admit, I thought about doing what your sister did, but I didn't. I wanted the law on my side at the end.

I can tell you one thing: If the loser that had the dog that we turned in shows up to claim the dog he'll be getting a certified letter - a nice one - telling him to fork over $350 for vet bills and dog care or to relinquish the dog to us with the right to come and visit the dog from time to time.

The problem is this: People don't care about their pets enough, period. You would freak out if you suddenly saw that your 2-year old was missing, right? Well, to me, a pet is the exact same thing - you should ALWAYS have control over your pet.

driven, you're a great guy - don't sweat the small stuff, okay?

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What a story. The point is that the dog shouldn't have been out roaming around, period. What kind of an owner lets their dog run around loose? Seriously? Personally, I think that that is neglect - and abuse.

Your sister would have been better off to do what we did: Take it to animal control and play wait-and-see. After 5 days the dog could have been legally hers.

I have to admit, I thought about doing what your sister did, but I didn't. I wanted the law on my side at the end.

I can tell you one thing: If the loser that had the dog that we turned in shows up to claim the dog he'll be getting a certified letter - a nice one - telling him to fork over $350 for vet bills and dog care or to relinquish the dog to us with the right to come and visit the dog from time to time.

The problem is this: People don't care about their pets enough, period. You would freak out if you suddenly saw that your 2-year old was missing, right? Well, to me, a pet is the exact same thing - you should ALWAYS have control over your pet.

driven, you're a great guy - don't sweat the small stuff, okay?

AFAIK you can't demand someone pay bills they didn't ask you to pay for in the first place. The SPCA could certainly do it if they paid for the treatment of the animal, but afaik you cannot. The treatment under your name was your option, you have to foot the bill.

[kmkkid]

Driven - I'd be ashamed of your sister as well. To lie to a poor couple who obviously cared and are looking for their missing pup... sickening.

[cjrivera]

Originally Posted by driven

I think the dog ran to her house to get laid ... no other reason.

ok, something about this sentence is just a bit unsettling.....

[memento]

I'd have a one-on-one talk with your sister about lying. That's so not cool.

[invisibleX]

Somehow the idea of 2 year olds roaming the neighborhood amuses me, as horrific as it is.

[besson3c]

Everybody has that experimental stage in their life, for many it's their college years, where they steal dogs.

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Oh snap.

HAHA!

[IceEnclosure]

Quite a few years ago, my dog would get out of my yard a number of dog-type ways. Take a trip through the canal around the fence extensions that stuck far out into the water. Hop the 4 foot fence. Dig. Whatever.

Sometimes in my younger years, I'd scour the neighborhood with my eyes full of tears trying to find the dog. Additionally he had mange in his youth, and although we cleared that up, he continued to have skin problems/sensitive skin his whole life. I tried many products, spent large amounts of money trying to sort it out, but to no avail.

If I found someone trying to keep MY dog that I loved and cared for I'd go ape-shiit. But that's just my story. Looking in from the outside on a situation like that, when ya don't know the whole story, is asking for trouble. Especially if it were my dog/friend.

[Zeeb]

Whether or not the dog was abused seems inconclusive. You said your sister liked it and took it to the vet--was that because it was obvious to her that it was malnourished or because of a check-up? If the vet needed to tell your sister that the dog had a problem because it was not obvious then its likely the original owner did not know either and did not intentionally harm it.

Assuming that's true, your sister had an understandable emotional reaction and that's how this should be understood. The original owner liked the dog enough to take it back and pay the vet bill--so I dunno.

How exactly does this situation effect you? Did you hang out with the neighbors you are concerned about? If they are good friends of yours then explain. However, most neighborhoods I know of are filled with people who stay inside and watch big screen TV's and could care less about the people next door unless there's garbage in the yard. Go get some sleep and if anyone questions you about the situation just tell the story as you did here and remember you were not involved. You don't need to be embarassed.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

How exactly does this situation effect you? Did you hang out with the neighbors you are concerned about?

In the interest of full disclosure: I'm president of the homeowners association. I'm probably the one guy that everyone in the neighborhood knows. This neighborhood is quite different than most. Everyone is outside talking to each other, neighbors "hang" outside over beer or even a glass of water and chat. (Mostly anyway ... there are exceptions.)

I generally try to facilitate a non-confontational environment, I strive to get people to talk about disputes ... and it usually works out pretty well. This won't help if they think I'd support her on this. One of my neighbors helped tonight. He heard about this fiasco (apparently news travels very fast.) He knew I'd be concerned and he said "Anyone that knows you KNOWS that you'd have no part of this ..." In fact a few are now joking about a hospital mix-up at birth. :-) (Makes me feel a little better), but I'm still a bit embarrased ....

Thanks again for the feedback.

[Cody Dawg]

Something isn't quite right.

Here's the thing: Your sister tried to do a good thing. She didn't just decide, "I'm going to steal the neighbor's dog." Circumstances occurred which allowed it to happen.

What about the ass who is letting his dog run around like that?

In our HOA if a dog is caught wandering around without an owner it is a $25 fine the first time, $50 fine the second time, and $100 fine thereafter.

It's just not cool.

Know why?

Because if a wandering dog BITES someone who gets sued? THE HOA to begin with.

In our community if you have a dog then you MUST have a fenced yard, period. No if, ands, or buts about it. ALL dogs MUST be on a leash when not in their own yard(s). ALL dogs MUST be licensed and the license on file with the HOA.

This business where some looney lets his dog run around loose is just BS.

Sure, your sister didn't go about things in the right way, but at least she cared enough to make an effort to take care of an animal and didn't let it go on it's merry way down the street and she didn't take it to the dog pound where it might have been euthanized.

The bottom line is that the guy letting that dog run around loose is wrong, plain and simple, and in our community not only would he have had a fine levied by HOA, but animal control would have been notified also.

The truth is that you don't even know if that dog has had a rabies vaccination (unless your sister paid for that too) and it could have bitten someone or jumped up on someone and scratched them (like a child or an elderly person) or even gotten in a fight with another dog whose yard it went into and once again, not only is the owner of the dog liable, but HOA for failure to have provisions about wandering and loose dogs.

As president of the HOA you really should pay attention to these details because they DO matter. Protect yourself and protect your community by examining your unleashed dog and wandering dog policies.

[driven]

The dog dug out of the fence. (Granted, it does that a lot) My sister knew who it belonged too, and unfortunately DID just decide to steal the dog because she thought it was cute. I know her enough to know that she uses half-truths to justify her actions.

*HER* dog runs around all the time. We (the HOA) aren't able to do much more than call Animal control as we have no provision in our deed restrictions that empower us to do otherwise. (Unless the dog is barking alot at night, then we can fine for a noise violation.) The HOA won't get sued as we have no authority to deal with this. (At least according to our law firm.) In fact, we'd probably get sued for over-reaching our authority if we *DID* try to do something. One girl got bit last year. We called animal control and the dog was taken and the owner was fined. We did our part. (That was the first time unfortunately that the animal got out.)

[Cody Dawg]

Well, it sounds like you've got your work cut out for you as head of HOA.

All I can say is that the owner is really at fault for not controlling his dog more. Maybe now he'll make sure to be more careful - hopefully. It's only right that the owner paid the vet bills, IMHO.

I just feel badly when I hear about things like this. You're in a bad position because of two people - and it's not fair to YOU.

All I can say is that they're both lucky that you're such a nice guy.

[driven]

Agreed. (Except for the vet bill, since she knew who the dogs owner was she should have simply brought it home.) I would have called the cops.

(And thanks!)

[Cody Dawg]

Well, here's the thing: Maybe the guy will remember the vet bill and think twice about letting his dog get out. We have a fence and we buried chicken wire from the bottom of the fence to about 18 inches deep to keep dog(s) in and toads (which are poisonous here) out. Maybe that guy should do the same thing.



Maybe you should let your sister be the HOA president?

[driven]

That fence you describe would violate our deed-restrictions (which are very particular). Also it would probably require the utility companies to get involved as the digging would mess up the underground utilities. (I personally don't care what people put up, but our HOA nazis aka the Architectural Review Committee would have a heart-attack. It's hard enough to keep them at bay when someone changes a mailbox. <grin>

I'd let ANYONE else be the HOA president that wants the job. I doubt they would ever elect my sister though ... I think she's managed to annoy just about everyone. (Except for one house, but they just moved in last week.)

Me? I'd just like to be able to put up a small shed to get the chemicals and gasoline out of my garage. That will require the deed-restrictions to be changed. (Which is becoming near impossible.)

I don't want to say "never", but I'd prefer to not live in a managed community again. (And I will *NEVER* live in this close proximity to a relative again!)

[Cody Dawg]

Well, you and I agree about "communities" also. I hate living in a community except for the fact that we are relatively small and have 2 guards patrolling 24/7.

Our community also has a weight restriction on dogs - nothing over 35 pounds. Rules, rules, rules.

Oh well. Maybe you should move away - it might be good for your health.

[Cold Warrior]

Dogs are property. Your sister stole it and is a liar. I would have filed a police report and brought up charges for her vigilantism. If a neighbor doesn't like how animals are treated, they can take photographs and bring it up with the authorities.

[kick52]

Originally Posted by driven

I hate to go outside.

But why go outside when you have all of your friends right here? Right here.... right here..... right here...

[Cody Dawg]

I disagree with the label of "thief." Maybe I don't have all of the details, but if the dog wanders away to another area then the person whose yard the dog goes into cannot be labeled a "thief." Actually, the law considers dogs property, yes, but according to local authorities here in Florida, the burden is on the owner of the dog to control *his* property - even if it's a dog.

For instance, if a dog wanders away and people find it they cannot be labeled as having "stolen" it because they did not break into the original owner's home or illegally trespass the original owner's yard in order to take the dog. The dog left of it's own accord. If the dog was not enticed or spirited away and simply ran away then that is not "stealing" a dog.

It's a weird situation, to be sure.

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I disagree with the label of "thief." Maybe I don't have all of the details, but if the dog wanders away to another area then the person whose yard the dog goes into cannot be labeled a "thief." Actually, the law considers dogs property, yes, but according to local authorities here in Florida, the burden is on the owner of the dog to control *his* property - even if it's a dog.

For instance, if a dog wanders away and people find it they cannot be labeled as having "stolen" it because they did not break into the original owner's home or illegally trespass the original owner's yard in order to take the dog. The dog left of it's own accord. If the dog was not enticed or spirited away and simply ran away then that is not "stealing" a dog.

It's a weird situation, to be sure.

SO, let's just say I accidently threw a frisbee over your fence, and you SAW the frisbee land in your yard, and SAW it was mine. That gives you the right to keep it? I suppose you could, but if I called the cops I'm sure they'd get it back for me (just for sake of argument, I know a frisbee isn't worth the concern), and give me a warning about letting my frisbee hit your yard. Same deal in this situation. Neither party would be charged probably, but warnings would be handed out to both I'm sure.

[Cody Dawg]

That's not the same at all.

If you threw a frisbee over MY fence and it landed in MY yard and you didn't come and get it and I saw it there and didn't know who it belonged to and no one had claimed it then yes, it is legally mine unless and until proven otherwise.

Why are you throwing a frisbee into my yard?

Or, better question, why aren't you controlling where your frisbee goes?

See, if the police show up at my house and say, "Do you have this man's frisbee," I would say, "Gee, I don't know. A frisbee has been in my back yard for a few days and my kids now play with it."

The cop is going to turn around to the supposed owner and say, "Do you have a way to prove that it is yours? Is your name on the frisbee? (You'd say "No.") Do you have a receipt? (You'd say "No.")

What the law says is that the burden of ownership and possession is on the owner, period, and when who actually HAS the item comes into play the law sides with the person possessing the item hence, "Possession is 9/10s of the law of ownership."

[Cody Dawg]

Oh, and right here in our community last week a judge upheld a law that says that even CATS must be leashed when outside in order to uphold the leash law and prevent situations where a person seizes a wandering cat and claims it as his or her own cat. Cats are most commonly left to wander at large.

Worth also noting is that because this woman simply fed the cats in question made her legally the owner of the cats and legally responsible for them - including fines.

PALM BEACH POST
Thursday, September 21, 2006

STUART — Silver kittens shook furiously from Ellie Booth's ears Wednesday morning as she stood up, slung her leather kitty cat purse over her shoulder and scowled at the Martin County Animal Control officers walking out of the courtroom.

"Come on, guys, have a heart!" she said to their backs. "Martin County needs to get into the 21st century!"

In the defendant's chair, Kristen Nielander hung her head and sobbed. Five other women, cat lovers who had come to the Martin County Courthouse looking for victory against the county's controversial leash law, shrugged and wiped tears from their own eyes.

They had hoped Wednesday's trial would clear Nielander of having to pay fines for caring for five stray cats animal control workers trapped in March. Instead, Martin County Judge Kathleen Roberts sided with animal control workers, saying the fact that Nielander claimed the strays at the humane society — even if she thought she was saving them from being euthanized — made her liable for $525 in fines for not keeping them on leashes.

The five cats animal control workers caught in March were part of a colony of 25 feral cats Nielander has fed and cared for in Jensen Beach over the past three years.

Nielander and the other cat lovers in court Wednesday said they use the Trap-Neuter-Release method, or TNR, to control the feral cat populations they care for throughout the county. Nielander said she has paid to spay and neuter most of the cats in her colony, reducing the population from 60 to 25 cats.

Her trial Wednesday rested on the question of whether her care for the feral cats made her their owner. County animal control workers said in their eyes, it did. They said she would not have had to pay the fine had she left the cats at the shelter.

"The animal control unit doesn't recognize feral. If you feed them, you own them," officer Karen Kneubehl testified.

Maris Sine, a member of the Hobe Sound Animal Protection League and president of Domino's House, a no-kill animal shelter in Palm City, has supported Nielander throughout her fight against the fine. She and others, like Booth, say the leash law is archaic and have tried to have cats exempted. So far those efforts have failed.

"Now people will leave the cats at the shelter because they're afraid they'll get fined," Sine said after the verdict. "Every stray or homeless cat is now at risk."

As for Nielander, she said she doesn't regret the decision she made. Four of the cats now live at Domino's House. The fifth has been adopted. She and her attorney, Steve Glucksman, said they haven't decided whether they will appeal.

"All I know is I'm going to keep fighting," Nielander said.

The laws in Florida are relatively vague. In my own thread started about what to do with a dog that was neglected I decided to go ahead and let animal control handle the situation and they specifically said that unless someone has microchipped or tattooed the animal and the microchip or tattoo is on file with animal control that possession is 9/10s of the law because it becomes a "he-said she-said" situation where two people claim ownership. The judge will err on the side of the person who actually has the dog when all things are equal.

The moral of the story is that it is very important to microchip and license your pets and make sure the microchip is on file with the microchip manufacturer and is on file with animal control AS WELL AS keeping your animal in your possession and under your control.

It's not only the best thing from a legal property standpoint, but best for the animal so that it doesn't suffer or die.

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

That's not the same at all.

If you threw a frisbee over MY fence and it landed in MY yard and you didn't come and get it and I saw it there and didn't know who it belonged to and no one had claimed it then yes, it is legally mine unless and until proven otherwise.

Why are you throwing a frisbee into my yard?

Or, better question, why aren't you controlling where your frisbee goes?

See, if the police show up at my house and say, "Do you have this man's frisbee," I would say, "Gee, I don't know. A frisbee has been in my back yard for a few days and my kids now play with it."

The cop is going to turn around to the supposed owner and say, "Do you have a way to prove that it is yours? Is your name on the frisbee? (You'd say "No.") Do you have a receipt? (You'd say "No.")

What the law says is that the burden of ownership and possession is on the owner, period, and when who actually HAS the item comes into play the law sides with the person possessing the item hence, "Possession is 9/10s of the law of ownership."

Did you read my analogy at all? I said if YOU SAW the frisbee land in your yard, and you KNEW that I had thrown it there (accidently), you'd be at fault for keeping it. So, it is the same. She seen the dog wander into her yard, and she knew it was THAT neighbors dog, yet she tried to keep it, and even have the nerve to lie about it being her own dog. See now? She was trying to STEAL it.

[Oisín]

All I can say is that the owner is really at fault for not controlling his dog more.

You sound like you’ve never had a dog (which I know very well is not the case).

If the dog really wants out, it will find a way to get out. As long as the owner’s taken what you might call reasonable steps to prevent the dog from running, it’s not his fault. In no way does it constitute abuse. The only way to absolutely prevent an unneutered male dog from running off is to lock it up so tightly that it definitely does constitute abuse.

We had our dog (when he was younger and even more mind-bogglingly unintelligent than he is now) jump on to the kitchen table, take a good run, and jump through our first-floor kitchen window to get to our neighbour’s dog who was in heat. And no, we didn’t leave the window open—he charged at it and crashed through it, breaking the pane and harming himself quite badly in the process. Was that our fault? Should we have had concrete windows? No. If we had, he might well have kept hurling himself at them till he’d killed himself.

I’d rather the dog manage to escape somehow than it die trying.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

That's not the same at all.

If you threw a frisbee over MY fence and it landed in MY yard and you didn't come and get it and I saw it there and didn't know who it belonged to and no one had claimed it then yes, it is legally mine unless and until proven otherwise.

Why are you throwing a frisbee into my yard?

Or, better question, why aren't you controlling where your frisbee goes?

See, if the police show up at my house and say, "Do you have this man's frisbee," I would say, "Gee, I don't know. A frisbee has been in my back yard for a few days and my kids now play with it."

The cop is going to turn around to the supposed owner and say, "Do you have a way to prove that it is yours? Is your name on the frisbee? (You'd say "No.") Do you have a receipt? (You'd say "No.")

What the law says is that the burden of ownership and possession is on the owner, period, and when who actually HAS the item comes into play the law sides with the person possessing the item hence, "Possession is 9/10s of the law of ownership."

What if a dog from another neighbor came into the yard, picked up the frisbee and ran into a 4th yard. Now what?

[vmarks]

Driven,

Have you spoken with the owners of the dog at all?

You're embarrassed. I think you're a reasonable person. If the dog's owners are also reasonable people (and it sounds like they could be, because they ponied up for the vet bill when your sister finally got around to doing the right thing) then why don't you talk to them?

Go over with a basket of muffins or something and say you'd like to talk for a few minutes. You don't support what she did, it's embarrassed you, and that whatever the responsibilities of dog ownership, keeping them from running out of the yard, etc., that you don't want them to think badly of you over this.

Or take a page from Clint Eastwood, paint the place red and set it on fire. No, wait. That's High Plains Drifter.

[itai195]

And if that doesn't make you feel better, there is always the traditional method: hara-kiri. But definitely give the muffins a shot first

[driven]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Driven,

Have you spoken with the owners of the dog at all?

You're embarrassed. I think you're a reasonable person. If the dog's owners are also reasonable people (and it sounds like they could be, because they ponied up for the vet bill when your sister finally got around to doing the right thing) then why don't you talk to them?

Go over with a basket of muffins or something and say you'd like to talk for a few minutes. You don't support what she did, it's embarrassed you, and that whatever the responsibilities of dog ownership, keeping them from running out of the yard, etc., that you don't want them to think badly of you over this.

Or take a page from Clint Eastwood, paint the place red and set it on fire. No, wait. That's High Plains Drifter.

I haven't yet, but I will when I have the opportunity. I have to do it in such a way that I don't start a war here. My sister lives across from them. She knows how I feel but if she sees me over there she's start some drama. I try to avoid domestic drama. (And she is the queen of creating it!)

But ... good advice. I'm just looking for an opportunity. (Which may come to me at the next HOA meeting.... ugh ... lots of drama at those things.)

[driven]

Originally Posted by itai195

And if that doesn't make you feel better, there is always the traditional method -- hara-kiri

Might not work ... my sword is only for display.... it has a plastic hilt and would probably break.