[Spliff]

A NY Times journalist was on the private jet that collided with a Brazilian 737. The 737 crashed and the private jet managed to land on a military airstrip in the jungle. Apparently, the two jets were flying at the same altitude. I don't understand how this could happen? Don't all modern jets have collision radar? Both jets were brand new.




October 3, 2006
Colliding With Death at 37,000 Feet, and Living

By JOE SHARKEY
SÃO JOSE DOS CAMPOS, Brazil, Oct. 1 — It had been an uneventful, comfortable flight.

With the window shade drawn, I was relaxing in my leather seat aboard a $25 million corporate jet that was flying 37,000 feet above the vast Amazon rainforest. The 7 of us on board the 13-passenger jet were keeping to ourselves.

Without warning, I felt a terrific jolt and heard a loud bang, followed by an eerie silence, save for the hum of the engines.

And then the three words I will never forget. “We’ve been hit,” said Henry Yandle, a fellow passenger standing in the aisle near the cockpit of the Embraer Legacy 600 jet.

“Hit? By what?” I wondered. I lifted the shade. The sky was clear; the sun low in the sky. The rainforest went on forever. But there, at the end of the wing, was a jagged ridge, perhaps a foot high, where the five-foot-tall winglet was supposed to be.

And so began the most harrowing 30 minutes of my life. I would be told time and again in the next few days that nobody ever survives a midair collision. I was lucky to be alive — and only later would I learn that the 155 people aboard the Boeing 737 on a domestic flight that seems to have clipped us were not.

Investigators are still trying to sort out what happened, and how — our smaller jet managed to stay aloft while a 737 that is longer, wider and more than three times as heavy, fell from the sky nose first.

But at 3:59 last Friday afternoon, all I could see, all I knew, was that part of the wing was gone. And it was clear that the situation was worsening in a hurry. The leading edge of the wing was losing rivets, and starting to peel back.

[The article is too long to fully post here. read the rest of it at the link above.]

[Sky Captain]

Maintain visual seperation.
Someone wasn't watching.

The CRJ-100 I fly dosen't have proximity radar either.

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Maintain visual seperation.
Someone wasn't watching.

The CRJ-100 I fly dosen't have proximity radar either.

Do you think it should be a necessity to protect passengers from lazy or incompetent pilots?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

The CRJ-100 I fly dosen't have proximity radar either.

I thought it was pretty much standard now?

Even if that was the case shouldn't the large jet have picked them up sooner? Wasn't some control tower watching both of them when they got in their airspace?

[driven]

Wow. Intense article.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Spliff

Do you think it should be a necessity to protect passengers from lazy or incompetent pilots?

Better yet, ban lazy and incompetent pilots.

[Kerrigan]

Aren't you being a little hard on Sky Captain? :rimshot:

[Sky Captain]

I work with one now.
I'm cringing at the notion of him taking 40 passangers with him.
Abd he blames everyone else for his incompetence.

[macroy]

From a article linked by the above article - it states:

"Aside from describing the damage to the business jet’s wing and tail, investigators have provided few details supporting their theory of a midair crash between the aircraft, both of them new and equipped with systems designed to prevent such a collision."

One of the other theory is that the 737 was in trouble already, and lost a part that struck the smaller jet. They have found the recorder... so hopefully more info can be obtained.

That was some article. Wow.

[itai195]

Wow, that has to be a life-altering experience. Good article

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Better yet, ban lazy and incompetent pilots.

I think the problem is you're going find out which ones fit the bill the hard way.

[Sky Captain]

We have to go to yearly or bi-yearly reviews. Unless we participate in AQP.
(Which I do. so I have to fly an ATR to our maintenance facility and make approaches with it to remain current)
But my personal aircraft insurance company requires me to have a flight review.
But there's no one that says "you're too incompetant to remain a pilot". Ugh.



Here is a proximity alert system.




But the problem is, if your near the airport, it's useless. It will continue to warn of traffic(within 5 miles.
Well duh.

[Todd Madson]

This was over the Brazilian rainforest. There was no air traffic control and no
radar to speak of, I'm told by a Brazilian pilot ATC is over coastal and major
city areas only, the rainforest has no radar that far out.

The bizjet was cleared for 37,000 by ATC at Sao Paolo I'm told,
the 737 was cleared to ascend from 35,000 to 39,000 by the same ATC.

It appears that this was a disconnect on the part of the ATC and there may
also have been a language problem as well as the fact that

There was a rather interesting commentary at Digg about this.

[ghporter]

Typically, ATC informs the pilot of an aircraft cleared for an altitude change of ALL traffic in the area-and that can be a HUGE area. This may not have happened (I don't know anything about the quality of internal ATC in Brazil), or the pilot of the 737 may not have copied the information correctly.

OR...as stated earlier, the aircraft may have been coming apart midair and a part of it struck the smaller jet.

Ever seen what it looks like to be CLOSE to another aircraft in the air? I've seen video of it, and it's extremely scary, and the impression is that the other aircraft is already touching your aircraft. If the journalist did not have a background in estimating distances between aircraft IN THE AIR, it's quite possible he misjudged the distance.

[Sky Captain]

There was a collision between a private jet and a sail plane not long ago also.
Ultimately the jet was at fault. (non powered aircraft have the right of way in the US)


I just spoke with my father in law. All of his flights are transcontinental.
He's been into Rio. He told me they don't depend on the Brazilian ATC for any information other than their clearances and approach vectors.
His 747-400 does not have an aircraft proximity warning system either.

[Peter]

the odds of two jets colliding over such a vast area are mind bogglingly unlikely :o

[JoshuaZ]

Thats so weird...

Reminds me of the plane crash scene from Fight Club.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Peter

the odds of two jets colliding over such a vast area are mind bogglingly unlikely :o

Not really. All planes follow specific routes and very specific altitudes.

[chabig]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Here is a proximity alert system.

That's not what they would have had. They would have had TCAS.

[Sky Captain]

Only few carriers have these avionics installed.
And the newer Mode S transponders will assist in reporting proximity information.
But nothing is perfect. It still requires the crew to be alert.

And yes we fly specific routes at specific altitudes.
And we maintain 1000 foot seperation altitudes by East-West.

[Sky Captain]

Investigators will also look at why the pilots weren't alerted by special on-board equipment designed to avoid collisions. The air force said both jets were equipped with a Traffic Collision Avoidance System, or TCAS, which monitors other planes and sets off an alarm if they get too close.

Woah, both aircraft were equipped with TCAS.
And the Embraer was at 37000'.
Ultimately the Embrare crew will be faulted.

[chabig]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Woah, both aircraft were equipped with TCAS.
And the Embraer was at 37000'.
Ultimately the Embrare crew will be faulted.

It sounds like they'd both be at fault if they both ignored TCAS. It will be very interesting to follow this one. I don't know how two crews in two TCAS-equipped airplanes could have hit each other.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Woah, both aircraft were equipped with TCAS.
And the Embraer was at 37000'.
Ultimately the Embrare crew will be faulted.

Why? Is the Embrare not allowed to fly that high? (Pardon my ignorance)

I hate these little commuter planes. I always *always* book different, even more expensive flights to avoid them.

[Sky Captain]

The E-buzzard(that's what we call an Embraer) was supposed to be at an even altitude. 36,000 feet. For the direction they were flying.

I pilot the little commuter planes.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

The E-buzzard(that's what we call an Embraer) was supposed to be at an even altitude. 36,000 feet. For the direction they were flying.

I pilot the little commuter planes.

Ok ... I'll fly on YOURS.

[Dark Helmet]

yickes, so even thought that above story makes the pilots out to be hero's they might actually be responsible for downing the large jet and can be charged with manslaughter.

CNN.com - U.S.�pilots may face manslaughter charge in Brazil crash - Oct 4, 2006

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

yickes, so even thought that above story makes the pilots out to be hero's they might actually be responsible for downing the large jet and can be charged with manslaughter.

From the same article:

"Preliminary investigations indicate that the pilots may have turned off the transponder" that communicates the plane's location, he said. If so, that would mean "that they knew the risks they were running and nevertheless they took certain attitudes that endangered the lives of people."

[driven]

Which pilots of which plane? Or both pilots of both planes?

[Mark Larr]

Here's the sailplane/Hawker accident. LAX06FA277A

Thankfully noone was killed.





If the Embrarer had their Transponder off, then something is up, like transporting drugs.


The SkyCaptain and I encountered a gaggle of RV-6's at freaking pattern altitude over 16J back in April that weren't squawking. We threaded the needle as planes went everywhere.

Homebuilt and ultralite pilots are merely biker trash with wings.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by driven

Which pilots of which plane? Or both pilots of both planes?

The pilots of the small plane that survived SEEM to be the ones at fault so far.

[hart]

quote from GHP:----Ever seen what it looks like to be CLOSE to another aircraft in the air? I've seen video of it, and it's extremely scary, and the impression is that the other aircraft is already touching your aircraft. If the journalist did not have a background in estimating distances between aircraft IN THE AIR, it's quite possible he misjudged the distance.----

he didn't actually see anything. He just felt the collision.

[imitchellg5]

Embraers are not private jets, and collision radar is optional on all of their jets. Don't call it small either until you've flown a RV-3 or ultra-light

[chabig]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

Embraers are not private jets, and collision radar is optional on all of their jets. Don't call it small either until you've flown a RV-3 or ultra-light

Let's get a few facts straight. There are systems that help prevent midair collisions, but they are not based on radar. They are based on devices on each airplane that communicate with each other over the radio.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by chabig

Let's get a few facts straight. There are systems that help prevent midair collisions, but they are not based on radar. They are based on devices on each airplane that communicate with each other over the radio.

That is what I meant, the brain just got disconnected

[driven]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

Embraers are not private jets, and collision radar is optional on all of their jets. Don't call it small either until you've flown a RV-3 or ultra-light

RV-3? I'm not sure Delta is flying those on their routes yet. <SMILE>

I can't believe the routes that they are putting these "smaller" (is that ok?) planes on. I flew from Atlanta to Montreal on a CRJ-70. <SIGH> I flew home on a 767. Pretty diverse set of planes for the same route, no?

I've also flown Los Angeles to Atlanta on a 737. (Kinda small for a medium haul flight.)

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by Mark Larr

If the Embrarer had their Transponder off, then something is up, like transporting drugs.

Oh please....

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

The E-buzzard(that's what we call an Embraer) was supposed to be at an even altitude. 36,000 feet. For the direction they were flying.

I pilot the little commuter planes.

This is the BIG question, IMO.

[chabig]

What is the big question?

[Sky Captain]

Why the E-buzzard was at FL37 instead of FL36 as requested by ATC.

This is the worst fears come true with the advent of VLJs.(very light jets)
That the sky will become too crowded.

I may end up a pilot/captain of one of these VLJs in the future.

[chabig]

I heard he was descending to 360.

Chris

[FireWire]

Update: the pilots can go home, but will be charged.

from CNN

Here's an excerpt :

SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) -- Brazilian federal police on Friday charged two New York pilots involved in a collision that killed 154 people with exposing an aircraft to danger.

The charges could carry a penalty of 12 years in prison.

Joseph Lepore, 42, of Bay Shore, and Jan Paladino, 34, Westhampton Beach, were questioned by police for six hours and then were allowed to pick up their passports and leave the country, but they are required to return for their trial.

Dias called the police decision "biased" and "discriminatory," and said police were simply "looking for someone to blame for the crime." He added that if the factors leading to the fatal collision were considered unintentional, the maximum penalty would fall to four years in prison

WTF is wrong with these people?? It's an honest mistake, why even press charge? What happened to the time when you could say "Oops, sorry, I made a mistake, it won't happen again"?

They could end up with 12 years in prison (or 4), and they dare refer to the incident as a "crime". What good would that do that they serve a prison term?

[driven]

Originally Posted by FireWire 

Update: the pilots can go home, but will be charged.

from CNN

Here's an excerpt :


WTF is wrong with these people?? It's an honest mistake, why even press charge? What happened to the time when you could say "Oops, sorry, I made a mistake, it won't happen again"?

They could end up with 12 years in prison (or 4), and they dare refer to the incident as a "crime". What good would that do that they serve a prison term?

If someone accidentally ran over your wife and kids because they weren't operating their car properly would you accept "sorry, honest mistake." and let them walk scott-free?

(If you could then I'm very impressed.)

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by FireWire 

WTF is wrong with these people?? It's an honest mistake, why even press charge? What happened to the time when you could say "Oops, sorry, I made a mistake, it won't happen again"?

Are you totally off your rocker?

If the small plane was a Brazilian aircraft and the large one that crashed was an American flight would you say the same thing?

Not to mention not following air traffic control instructions and flying at the same altitude as oncoming traffic is not "An honest mistake". That is like driving on the wrong side of the highway and killing a bus full of people and saying "sorry, my bad. Won't do it again".

[FireWire]

Originally Posted by driven 

If someone accidentally ran over your wife and kids because they weren't operating their car properly would you accept "sorry, honest mistake." and let them walk scott-free?

(If you could then I'm very impressed.)

Well I'm against any form of punishment if the person didn't do it on purpose and it was 100% unintentionnal, so I could be angry against the driver, but I wouldn't want him jailed for that. (It's a different thing if he was operating his car improperly in the sense of going obviously too fast, or under the influence, etc). But if the driver fell asleep at the wheel, or have mistaken the gas pedal for the brake, it's not his fault, why punish him?

[FireWire]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

If the small plane was a Brazilian aircraft and the large one that crashed was an American flight would you say the same thing?

I'm not an american so it doesn't matter to me where the pilots or the plane come from. It could have been Canadians that have been killed: for me a mistake is a mistake.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Not to mention not following air traffic control instructions and flying at the same altitude as oncoming traffic is not "An honest mistake". That is like driving on the wrong side of the highway and killing a bus full of people and saying "sorry, my bad. Won't do it again".

It hard to make an analogy like this, because on the road you have a lot of clues that you are in the wrong way, but in the sky, all you have is a small dial, I guess it's easy to miss. You can set your autopilot on the wrong altitude by mistake, you can hear the wrong number over the radio, etc. The only way it would be their fault is if they said "Hey, let's fly 1000' too low just for the fun of it, hehehehe"...

In the worst case they could be fined, but I think this incident doesn't warrant prison time...

[Spliff]

Warning systems failed on both planes before they collided, an air force investigator said last month.

What are the chances of that happening? Bad luck or crappy engineering?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by FireWire 

It hard to make an analogy like this, because on the road you have a lot of clues that you are in the wrong way, but in the sky, all you have is a small dial, I guess it's easy to miss.

"I was speeding because the speedometer is small"

So you are saying pilots fly by feel and looking out the window?

BTW I have my private pilots license.

[JohnM15141]

I find that highly improbable. Most likely one system failed or was not turned on in one of the two aircraft thus rendering the other system incabable of detecting it.

Originally Posted by Spliff 

What are the chances of that happening? Bad luck or crappy engineering?

[glideslope]

Both US Pilots are now back in the US as of a few hours ago. They will never go on trial. The charges will quietly be dropped. Some questions will never be answered. IMO, it was a ATC problem all the way.

It's over.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by glideslope 

It's over.

Not for the families for the 150 people that died.