[macintologist]

MacNN has the headline:

http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/10/...ece.cries.out/

Greek Apple owners are crying out to the Cupertino-based company for fair treatment, pointing to free iPod engraving for other Europeans and the Applecare Protection Plan -- also not available to Greek customers....

Man that really sucks, and it get even worse.

From the website:

---------
QThe Macintosh users in the other European countries have the possibility of using the Mac Os X localized in their maternal language. May I have this possibility too in Greece without extra cost?

ASorry, this is not possible.
You have to pay for this and for each and every mac you buy!



----------
QI am student and I want to buy an iMac. If I buy it from Greece, shall I have the student discount that is offered in Europe?

ASorry, this is not possible.
There are no education discounts for Macs in Greece.



-------------
QRecently I have heard about MacBook Pro “Worldwide Battery Exchange Program”. My battery match the requirements so it needs to be exchanged. Could I do it in Greece the same way?

ASorry, this is not possible. You have to send your battery first along with some documents and a cost, wait some weeks without the battery until your application is approved and the new battery is sent to you. I know, I know: you have to make it “MacBook Pro Desktop” until then!

[Kerrigan]

How many people own Macs in Greece?

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

How many people own Macs in Greece?

I don't know, probably not a lot judging from my experiences of being a Mac-user in Cyprus. Only musicians, artists, newspaper layout people, videographers and the like use Macs. Regardless, it's not excuse for Apple to be poorly supporting the country.

No Applecare or education discounts?? No localization support???!?!?

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by macintologist

I don't know, probably not a lot judging from my experiences of being a Mac-user in Cyprus. Only musicians, artists, newspaper layout people, videographers and the like use Macs. Regardless, it's not excuse for Apple to be poorly supporting the country.

No Applecare or education discounts?? No localization support???!?!?

Oh, Greeks get "localization." For about 50-80 euros extra, you get the "localized version:" Finder, Dock, Dashboard, System Preferences, and Address Book are translated. DVD Player, Calculator, Safari, Mail, System Help files, etc. are not. ALL the included applications are translated in the "main 15 languages." Now, I can understand some thinge not being translated, but Mail, Safari and System Help? C'mon!

It should also be pointed out that the Turkish localization is available in exactly the same fashion as the Greek localization: as a separately installable file. But it is a regular .pkg install and available FREE. Also, the Turkish language version is nearly as completely translated as the "main 15."

The Greek installer uses it's own application, and requires an unlock code to install, in addition to it's only being available at the time you purchase the computer... it's not available for purchase separately!

Edit: macintologist: Ellinas eisai?

[olePigeon]

There might be some political issues in Greece that prevents Apple from doing it. Maybe a social program for Students that would directly conflict with any student discount Apple could offer.

However, I don't know why there isn't a Greek localization.

Of course, it could just be that Apple hasn't seen a large enough demand to warrant the costs of localizing OS X and doing student services. Really don't know.

Edit: After reading Person Man's post, perhaps they went through a 3rd party company that did the language translations for them and there's a copyright issue.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

There might be some political issues in Greece that prevents Apple from doing it. Maybe a social program for Students that would directly conflict with any student discount Apple could offer.

However, I don't know why there isn't a Greek localization.

Of course, it could just be that Apple hasn't seen a large enough demand to warrant the costs of localizing OS X and doing student services. Really don't know.

There's a Greek "localization." See my post above.

The main reason is that Rainbow Computers (Apple's Representatives in Greece) is lazy and don't care about the consumer market. They may have to change some of these policies now with Greece being part of the "common market" of the Euro-zone.

[macintologist]

Then-ime elenika. ime americanos

I grew up in cyprus thus I know the basics of street greek

[Oisín]

Wow, I never realised that. Just tried changing the language to Greek—that was one hell of a half-assed localisation. Seemingly random bits and bobs here and there were in Greek, but about 90 per cent of the UI was still in Danish. Ridiculous.

Greek should definitely be included as a standard language. I see no reason why not. It’s not like they’re going by the ‘size’ of the languages, or they wouldn’t include Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, or Finnish, either... and they would then obviously have to include Russian (which is also curiously absent from the list).

Edit: Ξέρω λίγο ελληνικά, αλλά δεν πολύ... το μαθαίνω εδώ στην Κοπεγχάγη μια φορά την εβδομάδα.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Edit: After reading Person Man's post, perhaps they went through a 3rd party company that did the language translations for them and there's a copyright issue.

No copyright issues. Rainbow Computers does the localization. They're so lazy that they only do the "bare minimum" to localize the OS.

Some Greek users have resorted to making their own open source translation that is MUCH better than the "official" version.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Wow, I never realised that. Just tried changing the language to Greek—that was one hell of a half-assed localisation. Seemingly random bits and bobs here and there were in Greek, but about 90 per cent of the UI was still in Danish. Ridiculous.

Well, you wouldn't have the Greek version anyway. It's a separately available install, and only available when you buy the "Greek Version" of a computer in Greece or Cyprus.

I know this because I have a Mac mini purchased in Greece. In the end, I kept the Greek keyboard and just used the freely available open source translation to put my father's computer together.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Person Man

Well, you wouldn't have the Greek version anyway. It's a separately available install, and only available when you buy the "Greek Version" of a computer in Greece or Cyprus.

I know this because I have a Mac mini purchased in Greece. In the end, I kept the Greek keyboard and just used the freely available open source translation to put my father's computer together.

Exactly—I just chose Greek from the full list of languages, and got only the parts that comes with OS X, which is then pretty much nothing. No menus or anything, only some input values (like dates and such).

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Exactly—I just chose Greek from the full list of languages, and got only the parts that comes with OS X, which is then pretty much nothing. No menus or anything, only some input values (like dates and such).

Yup. Though since Panther we've gotten a decent Unicode Greek keyboard layout.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Person Man

Yup. Though since Panther we've gotten a decent Unicode Greek keyboard layout.

Yeah, that at least works as it should (cf. above post).

[macintologist]

WHere can you get the open source Greek localization? Are there copyright issues with it?

Edit: Neverfind I did a quick google and found it

Gr-X 1.4.2 - MacUpdate

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by macintologist

WHere can you get the open source Greek localization? Are there copyright issues with it?

Edit: Neverfind I did a quick google and found it

Gr-X 1.4.2 - MacUpdate

No copyright issues that I'm aware of. They use different terminology in several places, and adhere to standard Greek computer jargon elsewhere.

[- - e r i k - -]

Wow. I feel for them. Paid localisation? WTF?

[ambush]

And I tought Apple Support sucked in Québec...

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Edit: Ξέρω λίγο ελληνικά, αλλά δεν πολύ... το μαθαίνω εδώ στην Κοπεγχάγη μια φορά την εβδομάδα.

Μπράβο! Except generally, when talking about the language, Ελληνικά is plural, and the equivalent of the word "not" in this case would be όχι (no), so your sentence would more properly read:

Ξέρω λίγα Ελληνικά, αλλά όχι πολύ... τα μαθαίνω...

I know you're a linguistics student, but how many languages do you know? I count Danish (naturally), English, Chinese, Greek, German (by virtue of it being similar to Danish, or formal instruction?) Did I miss any?

EDIT: By contrast, I speak English, Greek (both are "native"), German, and Spanish.

[PER3]

It's very odd—even Ukraine has a free localisation.

(Just to be clear, I'm not casting aspersions on Ukraine, just noting that Mac users in a country in which the Mac market must extremely small still manage to get it together and localise the system.)

Just to re-ask a question from a related thread—does anyone know how many words need to be translated in order to write a localisation? How many man-hours are involved?

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by PER3

It's very odd—even Ukraine has a free localisation.

Yes, and so do Russian and Turkey.

How many people speak Ukranian? There's approximately 22 million speakers of Greek.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Person Man

How many people speak Ukranian? There's approximately 22 million speakers of Greek.

With 10,6 million in Greece and maybe another 0,5 million in Cyprus?

Regards
PB.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by PER3

It's very odd—even Ukraine has a free localisation.

Newman: I'm not beaten yet. I still have armies in the Ukraine.

Kramer: Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting
duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's
time to put the hurt on the Ukraine.

Ukrainian: I come from Ukraine. You not say Ukraine weak.

Kramer: Yeah, well we're playing a game here, pal.

Ukrainian: Ukraine is game to you?! Howbout I take your little board and smash
it!!

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Powerbook

With 10,6 million in Greece and maybe another 0,5 million in Cyprus?

Regards
PB.

You're forgetting the large numbers of Greeks outside of Greece and Cyprus, that number about 7 million. So between 17-18 million or so.

There are 1.2 million ethnic Greeks in the U.S. and 3 million claim Greek descent (I am one of those, and I speak Greek).

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Wow. I feel for them. Paid localisation? WTF?

Same in Iceland. They have an 'Apple IMC' too there. Localization comes free with new computers bought from the Icelandic Apple IMC.

Costs €100 if you buy your Mac abroad.

Good thing Apple has a powerful presence here in Spain. The 'Apple IMC's' are really annoying. I mean, www.apple.gr gives some crappy underwear company!

Rainbow computers?

Greece, you have all my sympathy. The 'IMC's' can be notoriously lazy and inept.

V

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Good thing Apple has a powerful presence here in Spain. The 'Apple IMC's' are really annoying. I mean,www . apple . gr gives some crappy underwear company!

Rainbow computers?

LOL! "Funderwear?"

Rainbow computers is

Code:
www.rainbow.gr

EDIT: Any way to turn off the auto-URL formatting feature?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Person Man

LOL! "Funderwear?" Um...

Rainbow computers is

Code:
www.rainbow.gr

Yea if the IMC can't even protect apple.gr then they have no right to exist.

They are the 'IMC' so they have the right to the name and if they had any financial power and incentive they'd have wrested the apple.gr from the underwear thingy. Also if they'd have been awake at all, they'd have registered apple.gr before someone else did.

Apple Computer should be ashamed not having a real official presence in Greece like they have here in Spain. Very nice to do business with Apple Spain and all localizations are of course free.

It is important to have 'mothership presence'.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Person Man

EDIT: Any way to turn off the auto-URL formatting feature?

Of course.. just untick 'Automatically parse links in text'

http://forums.macnn.com/

V

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by voodoo

and all localizations are of course free.

...considering that Spanish localization (at least "Western Spanish") is built into the operating system as it is probably the second most common language in the world after English.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Person Man

...considering that Spanish localization (at least "Western Spanish") is built into the operating system as it is probably the second most common language in the world after English.

True, but Castillano is free too

(this probably pisses off the Catalanes, Gallegos and Vascos)

V

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by voodoo

True, but Castillano is free too

V

They have a separate Castillian Spanish localization? Cool!

EDIT: Um, where do you find that one? Nothing coming up on www.apple.com/es

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Person Man

Μπράβο! Except generally, when talking about the language, Ελληνικά is plural,

Ah, but of course. I should have guessed that. I had wondered why languages always seemed to have -κά, when adjectives have -κό. Simpler than I’d even imagined.

and the equivalent of the word "not" in this case would be όχι (no),

Ah, wondered about that, too—it’s always rather hard to predict, in languages where the word for ‘no’ is different from the verbal negator, which one will be used to negate non-verbal entities. I see Greek does the opposite of English (and Danish). Very helpful all, thanks

I know you're a linguistics student, but how many languages do you know? I count Danish (naturally), English, Chinese, Greek, German (by virtue of it being similar to Danish, or formal instruction?) Did I miss any?

Swedish and Norwegian (by virtue of them being so similar to Danish), French, Spanish, Portuguese, Latin, a smattering of Dutch, a bit of Icelandic (also largely by virtue of similarity to Danish), some (Irish) Gaelic, and early stages of Finnish (which I just started learning a little over a month ago). Other than that, you didn’t miss any

...considering that Spanish localization (at least "Western Spanish") is built into the operating system as it is probably the second most common language in the world after English.

In terms of native speakers, third (after Mandarin, number one, and English, number two). In terms of people able to speak it (though not necessarily native speakers), also third (still after English and Mandarin, but in the opposite order now).

They have a separate Castillian Spanish localization? Cool!

I’ve always wondered about this. For several languages, English included, they have one that’s ‘standard’, and then a bunch of others that are localised versions. With English, for instance, they have both British English, U.S. English, Australian English, and Canadian English. Now, obviously all of these are different in certain ways—but what is the ‘standard’ English one, then? A complete mixture of all of these? A compromise between them? Just the same as U.S. English? Or the same as the localised one if you buy it in an English-speaking country (i.e., U.S. English in the U.S.; British English in the U.K.; Australian English in Australia, etc.)?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Person Man

They have a separate Castillian Spanish localization? Cool!

EDIT: Um, where do you find that one? Nothing coming up on Apple

As far as I can tell, the Spanish used in OS X is Castillian. For instance the word 'ordenador' (very Castillan word) is always used instead of 'computadora' which is commonly used in Western Spanish.



V

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by voodoo

True, but Castillano is free too V

That is awesome.

[turtle777]

I'm surprised that nobody demands better Gyro and Pita support in the US.
Come one, a Gyro for $ 6-8 is a rip-off

-t

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by voodoo

As far as I can tell, the Spanish used in OS X is Castillian. For instance the word 'ordenador' (very Castillan word) is always used instead of 'computadora' which is commonly used in Western Spanish.



V

Heh,

I took Spanish in college, and most of my teachers were Mexican and Puerto Rican, though I did have one from Argentina whose mother was Argentinian and his father was from Spain.

We learned "la computadora," but I'm not surprised that Castillian uses "ordenador" The French word is Ordenateur (sp?).

The "real" Greek word for computer is υπολογιστή (ipologisti), which is what they use in the Greek Mac OS (and in Greek Windows) but in real life we just use κομπιούτερ (kompiuter).

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

I'm surprised that nobody demands better Gyro and Pita support in the US.
Come one, a Gyro for $ 6-8 is a rip-off

-t

Is that the average price in Virginia for a gyro?

We pay about $3.50 - $4.00 for a gyro here in Ohio. A gyro platter (with fries) is $5.00.

Of course, in Greece you can get a gyro for like €1.50 that's twice as big as what you get over here, plus the tzatziki is made with plain yogurt (much better) instead of sour cream. Sour cream just changes the taste too much.

And a Greek gyro (heh) is made with either all lamb or all pork (more common). Not that "particleboard-like" stuff we get here that I like to call "lamb-o-beef."

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Person Man

Of course, in Greece you can get a gyro for like €1.50 that's twice as big as what you get over here, plus the tzatziki is made with plain yogurt (much better) instead of sour cream. Sour cream just changes the taste too much.

Yeah, that's what I'm used to from Eruope as well.

In Germany, you get the Turkish version, a Döner Kebab for about EUR 1.50 - 2.00. Great stuff, especially with garlic sauce.

-t

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Yeah, that's what I'm used to from Eruope as well.

In Germany, you get the Turkish version, a Döner Kebab for about EUR 1.50 - 2.00. Great stuff, especially with garlic sauce.

-t

Yum. I like Doeners too. I was introduced to those by my German host family when I stayed in Heidenheim with my high school's exchange program in 1992. When I visited my cousins in Stuttgart (actually Stuttgart-Untertuerkheim, where the Daimler-Benz headquarters were) in 2001 the first thing I did was go down to the local Doener stand.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Person Man

You're forgetting the large numbers of Greeks outside of Greece and Cyprus, that number about 7 million. So between 17-18 million or so.

There are 1.2 million ethnic Greeks in the U.S. and 3 million claim Greek descent (I am one of those, and I speak Greek).

And the Greek areas of Italy.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

And the Greek areas of Italy.

"Outside of Greece and Cyprus" would include "the Greek areas of Italy."

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Ah, but of course. I should have guessed that. I had wondered why languages always seemed to have -κά, when adjectives have -κό. Simpler than I’d even imagined.

Ah, wondered about that, too—it’s always rather hard to predict, in languages where the word for ‘no’ is different from the verbal negator, which one will be used to negate non-verbal entities. I see Greek does the opposite of English (and Danish). Very helpful all, thanks

Having grown up with both constructions in English and Greek, it gets hard for me to see how that could be confused.

Also, another area of some confusion is in the words for "why" (γιατί) and "because." (επειδή). Often you will hear people use γιατί interchangeably for both "why" and "because." And if you substitute επειδή for γιατί it still makes sense, except for a few cases ("why" can only be γιατί. "Because" can be either). One of which is the following:

Dad: Πήγαινε στο δωμάτιο σου, ΤΩΡΑ! (Go to your room, NOW!)

Kid: Γιατί; (Why?)

Dad: Γιατί έτσι! (Because I said so!)

Saying "Επειδή έτσι" just sounds too foreign (at least to my ears).

Originally Posted by Oisín

Swedish and Norwegian (by virtue of them being so similar to Danish), French, Spanish, Portuguese, Latin, a smattering of Dutch, a bit of Icelandic (also largely by virtue of similarity to Danish), some (Irish) Gaelic, and early stages of Finnish (which I just started learning a little over a month ago). Other than that, you didn’t miss any

Polyglot

Originally Posted by Oisín

I’ve always wondered about this. For several languages, English included, they have one that’s ‘standard’, and then a bunch of others that are localised versions. With English, for instance, they have both British English, U.S. English, Australian English, and Canadian English. Now, obviously all of these are different in certain ways—but what is the ‘standard’ English one, then? A complete mixture of all of these? A compromise between them? Just the same as U.S. English? Or the same as the localised one if you buy it in an English-speaking country (i.e., U.S. English in the U.S.; British English in the U.K.; Australian English in Australia, etc.)?

Well, Apple used to produce British and Australian and International versions of the Classic Mac OS, where they used British spellings and local words. "Color" became "colour," etc. In the British Mac OS they used "Rubbish" for "Trash" and in Australia they used "Wastebasket" for "Trash"

Then they stopped doing it, and now they just use US English for everything, out of laziness, in my opinion.

Here is a site on Greek pronunciation you should find interesting and useful in your studies of Greek. It was put together by a Greek-born linguistics student here in the US.

The Greek Alphabet

and

The Details of Modern Greek Phonetics and Phonology

Enjoy!