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macintologist · Oct 9, 2006, 07:55 PM

A friend of mine was in Germany and took a picture of this:

There was this section in the German CD store called "Black Music." No joke. And it was totally ****ing arbitrary, too - J.Lo was in it. I mean, I know Germans are music-retarded, but come on!

imitchellg5 · Oct 9, 2006, 07:58 PM

This seems like it should be in the politics forum... Europe is very racist, especially in former Nazi held countries, or those that were influenced by the Nazis... Poland, Germany, Holland.

Chuckit · Oct 9, 2006, 07:58 PM

Looks like the kind of music that would appear on Black Entertainment Television to me.

- - e r i k - - · Oct 9, 2006, 08:07 PM

WTF are you on about? Mariah Carey is the featured artist, Eminem is in there, etc. etc.

Europe is very racist? You obviously haven't been traveling much. Europe is no more racist than anywhere else in the world, especially not more racist than the US or Australia.

imitchellg5 · Oct 9, 2006, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

WTF are you on about? Mariah Carey is the featured artist, Eminem is in there, etc. etc.

Europe is very racist? You obviously haven't been traveling much. Europe is no more racist than anywhere else in the world, especially not more racist than the US or Australia.

I've been to England, France, Germany, and Austria. My great-gramma was born and raised in Poland and was the most racist person I knew.

- - e r i k - - · Oct 9, 2006, 08:13 PM

The older generations usually are. Duh.

BlueSky · 08:49 PM

It's a matter of what's politically/culturally correct here vs. Germany or elsewhere. Are they not supposed to say "black music" or are they not supposed to call white artist's music "black"? Whatever, I don't see any racism.

Dr. Wahnsinn · 01:11 PM

What!? Isn't anyone going to say that Roy Black wasn't a racist?

It looks like that photo was taken in a Saturn outlet. Thay also have smaller sections for artists from France, Ireland, Spain, etc., would that be considered racist too?

I could care less what they call it. Anyway, "Black Music" is better than "Afro-American Music". The real problem here is using the English spelling "Music" instead of the German.

(Edit was made to clarify what word I meant when I referred to the spelling.)

Mastrap · Oct 9, 2006, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

This seems like it should be in the politics forum... Europe is very racist, especially in former Nazi held countries, or those that were influenced by the Nazis... Poland, Germany, Holland.

Has it occurred to you that the above is in itself a racist comment?

SpaceMonkey · Oct 9, 2006, 09:18 PM

IIRC, "black music" was actually a Billboard Music Charts category in the 1950s. I'm sure it felt very progressive at the time.

Chuckit · Oct 9, 2006, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Wahnsinn

Anyway, "Black Music" is better than "Afro-American Music".

I think the point is that "black music" is not really a specific genre as much as a reference to who the music is marketed toward (somewhat like if the reggae section were marked "pothead music"). The actual genres it's meant to comprise are almost certainly hip-hop and R&B.

Dr. Wahnsinn · Oct 9, 2006, 09:45 PM

I agree with you, Chuck. I was being glib.

Still, as a term for multiple genres, "black music" is more specific than is "Rock" nowadays.

Kevin · Oct 9, 2006, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

The older generations usually are. Duh.

I guess you trade one ignorant generalization for another.
YAY

©öñFü$íóÑ · Oct 9, 2006, 10:31 PM

so.... i wonder what they think of the Blue Man Group.....

OreoCookie · Oct 10, 2006, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

This seems like it should be in the politics forum... Europe is very racist, especially in former Nazi held countries, or those that were influenced by the Nazis... Poland, Germany, Holland.

Huh?
Holland is racist? It's probably one the least racist country I've been to. I guess you've never really been there.
Having lived in a few foreign countries, I would say the US' South is right up with Japan in terms of racism. (My sister's first hostfamily forbade her to have black friends; she was living in Georgia.)

I think the initial post is based on yet another cultural misunderstanding: in Germany, black music doesn't have similar historical weight.

Kr0nos · Oct 10, 2006, 01:24 AM

"Black Music" is simply a descriptive term which refers to everything from R&B, Soul to HipHop and even some Jazz.

It is viewed as something VERY positive and has superseded House music and Techno in terms of popularity in the age group of 16-25.

Nexus5 · Oct 10, 2006, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

This seems like it should be in the politics forum... Europe is very racist, especially in former Nazi held countries, or those that were influenced by the Nazis... Poland, Germany, Holland.

Great, you are such a smart guy. Holland "influenced by the Nazis".

Only in America.

nexus5.

Powerbook · Oct 10, 2006, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

My great-gramma was born and raised in Poland and was the most racist person I knew.

I guess that puts us in our place, huh?

TETENAL · Oct 10, 2006, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Wahnsinn

The real problem here is using the English spelling instead of the German.

It used to be called "Negermusik" mostly during the 1930s and 1940s.

OreoCookie · Oct 10, 2006, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

It used to be called "Negermusik" mostly during the 1930s and 1940s.

Also well into the 1950s and 1960s: my grandparents used to refer to Jazz and such as Negermusik (my mother was born in 1954). But this has nothing to do with `Black Music'.

TETENAL · Oct 10, 2006, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

But this has nothing to do with `Black Music'.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negermusik

Heute wird vereinzelt der Begriff meist abwertend für Hip-Hop oder Rhythm and Blues verwendet, gelegentlich auch für die Musik der weißen Hip-Hopper, da sie Verhaltensmuster von schwarzen Interpreten wie Gestik, Sprache bzw. Slang oder Statussymbole übernommen haben.

RAILhead · Oct 10, 2006, 05:55 AM

Seems right to me.

Mastrap · Oct 10, 2006, 06:03 AM

I don't think there's any racist intent there - however for anybody living in a multi cultural society this seems a very strange label indeed.

Eriamjh · Oct 10, 2006, 06:12 AM

Those stupid Germans! It should say "African American Music". No wait...

moonmonkey · Oct 10, 2006, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

My great-gramma was born and raised in Poland and was the most racist person I knew.

Poland is hardly a typical European country.
FYI have never met a Polish person who wasn't racist, they only seem to hate black people though, very strange.

moonmonkey · Oct 10, 2006, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

I don't think there's any racist intent there - however for anybody living in a multi cultural society this seems a very strange label indeed.

?? germany is very multicultural.

davidflas · Oct 10, 2006, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

Poland is hardly a typical European country.
FYI have never met a Polish person who wasn't racist, they only seem to hate black people though, very strange.

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what percentage of the people in Poland are of African decent?

Mastrap · Oct 10, 2006, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

?? germany is very multicultural.

Last time I lived there it was, mostly, a two class society: Germans and everybody else. Things might have changed since then, but it was my impression that 'everybody else' was expected to be either a refugee or to run an ethnic restaurant of some description.

Multi culturalism, for me, entails the appreciation for another person's native culture. I personally experienced very little of that in Germany.

TETENAL · Oct 10, 2006, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by davidflas

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what percentage of the people in Poland are of African decent?

Everybody is of African descent.

Poland doesn't have a history of colonization or slavery, so nobody there is black.

red rocket · Oct 10, 2006, 08:50 AM

"Black Music" is a perfectly acceptable umbrella category for crap that doesn't fit in anywhere else. Considering how a lot of modern acts mix R&B and rap and hip-hop and whatnot together, neither can claim its own category, nor is it pop or rock or jazz or metal or indie or classical. If you think that's racist, there's something wrong with you.

Welcome to the Center for Black Music Research
Welcome to BlackMusicAmerica!
Black Music Websites At Blackrefer.com

I very much doubt any black person would be offended. And incidentally, there aren't all that many black people in Germany from what I hear, so the target audience has f all to do with it, either, seeing as it's mostly whites who purchase the stuff.

PC tards need to get their heads out of their arses.

deedar · Oct 10, 2006, 08:57 AM

"Black Music" as a category makes perfect sense to me - after all, isn't that what it is?

Dakar · Oct 10, 2006, 09:06 AM

It's ineloquent, but it's fairly accurate.

Eug Wanker · 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

Those stupid Germans! It should say "African American Music". No wait...

Heheh.

The worst is when someone is described as being "African American" when he just happens to be a visiting student from Kenya or something.

P.S. Many Chinese or Korean or Indian Canadians or whatever REALLY hate being called Asian Americans.

P.P.S. For some good anti-PC humour, check out Russell Peters' schtick.

Kr0nos · Oct 10, 2006, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

It used to be called "Negermusik" mostly during the 1930s and 1940s.

Heh, can you imagine people officially labelling this kind of Music "Negermusik" at Saturn or MediaMarkt?!

philm · Oct 10, 2006, 09:43 AM

We have a massive awards thing every year called he MOBOs. I think it's a UK thing. Music of Black Origin. Everyone seems quite happy with it - all very mainstream and all the big celebs seem to turn up. Maybe the Amercian and European perspective is a bit different on this one.

If you want to see too much Flash:

Welcome to the Mobo's

TETENAL · Oct 10, 2006, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Heh, can you imagine people officially labelling this kind of Music "Negermusik" at Saturn or MediaMarkt?!

Maybe in Brandenburg or Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania.

Chuckit · Oct 10, 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Many Chinese or Korean or Indian Canadians or whatever REALLY hate being called Asian Americans.

Canadians in general hate being called Americans.

brassplayersrock² · Oct 10, 2006, 10:19 AM

what? would you feel better if they had a section named "negro music" or "non white person music" ?

OreoCookie · Oct 10, 2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negermusik

No, but this is not the same context you've used before: in the 30s and 40s, there was no hip hop. And there's no argument this term is racist. Even though I wasn't aware this word is (in some circles) still used today, the difference boils down to whether I call someone `negro' or `black': the first one is racist, the second one isn't (the black people I've talked to preferred black to colored).

So what exactly is your point then?

turtle777 · Oct 10, 2006, 10:59 AM

@ this thread.

WTF, dudes ?

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with racism.
Before judging other cultures and their names for music categories, try to understand the background, why terms are being used etc.

-t

turtle777 · Oct 10, 2006, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

And there's no argument this term is racist. Even though I wasn't aware this word is (in some circles) still used today, the difference boils down to whether I call someone `negro' or `black': the first one is racist, the second one isn't (the black people I've talked to preferred black to colored).

So what exactly is your point then?

No, it's NOT.

The term "NEGER" was not necessarily racist until people started using "Schwarzer" as an alternativ, suddenly making "Neger" derogativ.

Back in the day, you only had the option of "Neger", "Mohr" or "Afrikaner".
"Afrikaner" is better than "Neger" (it was never used in a racist way, I think), but has the problem that it denotes a strict geographical origin. If you wanted to describe people of dark complexion, "Neger" was better, or at least, less exclusive..

Oisin to the rescue, please.

-t

TETENAL · Oct 10, 2006, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

So what exactly is your point then?

Someone suggested that stores in Germany should use a German word for the genre. My point was to point out that the German word for it has always been and is still intended to be derogatory.

OreoCookie · Oct 10, 2006, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Someone suggested that stores in Germany should use a German word for the genre. My point was to point out that the German word for it has always been and is still intended to be derogatory.

Well, the correct, yet awkwardly sounding `Schwarzenmusik' has a negative touch to it as well. Schwarze Musik is Goth, so that's not an option either.

I disagree that `Negermusik' has always been the `German word' for this genre, as you say yourself, the word has its origin in the 1930s and it's used exclusively by people of that generation or Neo Nazis. And the Neo Nazis have expanded the meaning considerably.

OreoCookie · Oct 10, 2006, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

No, it's NOT.

Today it is. I'm not talking about the etymological aspect.

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

The term "NEGER" was not necessarily racist until people started using "Schwarzer" as an alternativ, suddenly making "Neger" derogativ.

This may be true, but these days, Neger is derogative. I think the increasing American influence in our language also plays a part in this.

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Back in the day, you only had the option of "Neger", "Mohr" or "Afrikaner".
"Afrikaner" is better than "Neger" (it was never used in a racist way, I think), but has the problem that it denotes a strict geographical origin. If you wanted to describe people of dark complexion, "Neger" was better, or at least, less exclusive..

Yes, past tense.
(Although some of the problems still persist: e. g. the boyfriend of my brother's best friend is from Jamaica and he doesn't consider himself black, but Jamaican.)

OreoCookie · Oct 10, 2006, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Last time I lived there it was, mostly, a two class society: Germans and everybody else. Things might have changed since then, but it was my impression that 'everybody else' was expected to be either a refugee or to run an ethnic restaurant of some description.

I don't think this is entirely accurate: immigrants from Christian countries (in particular Italians and most of the Greeks) have integrated and blended in quite well. The same goes for French. However, you are right when it comes to Turks and former Yugoslavians.

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Multi culturalism, for me, entails the appreciation for another person's native culture. I personally experienced very little of that in Germany.

At least for Italians and French this is true in my experience: people go there for on vacation and they can appreciate these cultures. Even more so for Danish and Dutch, since there are many similarities in the culture.

The farther away you get from Germany, the less exposition and the less knowledge about that particular culture.

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

?? germany is very multicultural.

Yes, but not extremely so. Like many European countries, we have had our waves of immigrants (Turks, Italians, Greek and former Yugoslavians). As in most countries, there is an increasing ghettoization (take US, France or Japan for instance), so none of them are particularly unique. Like all European states, it is a nation state and not an immigration state -- which makes a difference to some degree.

turtle777 · Oct 10, 2006, 11:23 AM

There is NO German word for African-Americans. If so, someone educate me, please.
Well, "Farbige US-Amerikaner", LOL.

"Schwarze" or "Farbige" is the only term that is not restricted to a certain geographic (African) origin.

-t

OreoCookie · Oct 10, 2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

There is NO German word for African-Americans. If so, someone educate me, please.
Well, "Farbige US-Amerikaner", LOL.

"Schwarze" or "Farbige" is the only term that is not restricted to a certain geographic (African) origin.

-t

Afroamerikaner. My spellchecker knows it, too. Clearly, it is a very restrictive term (the subset which is the intersection of the two).

olePigeon · Oct 10, 2006, 11:43 AM

Oh come off it, it's not racist. Jazz was pioneered by the black culture in America, at its height in Harlem sepcifically. All its subgenres, R&B, rap, traditional blues, could be considered "black music" regardless if it's a white guy playing the music.

Are you going to argue that the "Latino Music" section is racist, too?

turtle777 · Oct 10, 2006, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Afroamerikaner. My spellchecker knows it, too. Clearly, it is a very restrictive term (the subset which is the intersection of the two).

You are right, although this is hardly a German word.
It's a Germanized English word.

-t

turtle777 · Oct 10, 2006, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Are you going to argue that the "Latino Music" section is racist, too?

Wait, save that for another thread

-t