[Kerrigan]

Obviously this debate (Athens v Sparta) has gone on for millenia. Which is a superior model for society? I'll start things off by giving a crude rundown of each system.

Athens:

• Unstable
• Large "conversible" class
• Democratic
• Tolerant
• Greater emphasis on arts
• These ideas are carried on in modern day Europe, and in her daughters (US, Canada, etc). Modern day New York, London, Paris, etc, are essentially the heirs to Athens.

Sparta

• Stable and militaristic
• Conversation of ideas is not encouraged
• Monarchy
• Everyone conforms to the State's system of values (loyalty, brotherhood, etc)
• No arts or literature
• This model has inspired all types of "Spartan" societies: Third Reich, North Korea, USSR, and other "evil" regimes. But also utopian societies and socialist states are Spartan in the sense that the State is supposed to determine mankind's destiny, through mandatory military conscription, universal education, universal healthcare, and generally uniform values.

So which do you prefer and why?

[lpkmckenna]

Hands down: Athens. Exhibit 1 - Spartan pederasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Debate over.

[BRussell]

Hmm, Europe, US, Canada or Third Reich, North Korea, USSR. Can't decide, can't decide.

[Kerrigan]

One could argue that the modern day Scandinavian countries are more Spartan than Athenian. Like I said, the mandatory conscription, the state's control over men's destiny, the socialised economy, all hint towards Spartanism.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

One could argue that the modern day Scandinavian countries are more Spartan than Athenian. Like I said, the mandatory conscription, the state's control over men's destiny, the socialised economy, all hint towards Spartanism.

Yes well, Spartans were also notoriously gay. It just doesn't cut the mustard.

V

[olePigeon]

Spartans:

[Oversoul]

Spartans:

300

[invisibleX]

If 300 is even half decent that'll make me very happy. Looks like a decent month for movies.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Oversoul

Spartans:

300

I like

V

[D. S. Troyer]

"The Spartans were the first to eroticize athletics by introducing nudity"

Well......

[Dakar]

Sparta if I'm in charge, Athens if I'm not

[D. S. Troyer]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Sparta if I'm in charge, Athens if I'm not

End of thread.

Cut Here_________________________________________

[willed]

I reckon Rome will take over both of them by about 200BC.

[Mithras]

Athens was incredibly imperialist and militaristic anyway. Although we like to consider it the birthplace of democracy, it was really a 19th century British Imperial kind of democracy.

And in foreign policy, Athens insisted on crushing its partners and yoking them under its power, to pay tribute and supplies. Sparta, on the other hand, preferred egalitarian alliances between member states (but preferred those states to be oligarchies rather than democracies). So, as usual, it all gets rather complicated when you start to look closer...

[turtle777]

Spathens:

• Unstable and militaristic
• Tolerant idiots form ruling class
• Crappy arts and boring literature
• Copying of ideas is couraged
• Everyone conforms to the State's system of values (treachery, minimalism, etc)
• American beer

Got my vote

-t

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Spathens:

• Unstable and militaristic
• Tolerant idiots form ruling class
• Crappy arts and boring literature
• Copying of ideas is couraged
• Everyone conforms to the State's system of values (treachery, minimalism, etc)
• American beer

Got my vote

-t

Steve Ballmer?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

One could argue that the modern day Scandinavian countries are more Spartan than Athenian. Like I said, the mandatory conscription, the state's control over men's destiny, the socialised economy, all hint towards Spartanism.

Bullsh1t.

Scandinavia has some of the best artists, musicians, and has had a major influence on modern theatre and cinema, in addition to having probably the best all-around team-sports athletes in the world.

Oh, and basing your society on solidarity hardly makes into a totalitarian regime (actually the complete opposite).

You want a restrictive and totalitarian lock-in-step society. Try consumerism in a free-market capitalist society!