Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

hart · 01:21 PM

here's the question: I have an ancient gas stove that's down to one functioning burner, the pilot won't stay lit, it's a mess, actually a bit scarey. I need to replace it. The hitch is the stove is old enough that its outlet is not a grounded one, it's the old fashioned two pronged type. In my neighborhood electricians are a bit prima-donna-ish and hard to get in for a small job like putting in one outlet.

So, as a stopgap measure while waiting for an electrician, can I run an extension cord from a new stove to a modern 220 outlet about 5 feet away? Is this crazy? Crazier than a 40 year old falling apart stove?

ort888 · Nov 2, 2006, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by hart

here's

Exactly.

hart · Nov 2, 2006, 01:41 PM

happy cat feet on the enter key always help with coherent messaging

Gossamer · Nov 2, 2006, 02:55 PM

Are you talking about one of these?

Cause IIRC electric stoves have large plugs like this:

zerostar · Nov 2, 2006, 02:59 PM

You can get (or make) a 220v extension chord as well, just make sure it is rated for the proper amps your stove will be pulling. And I would unplug it when done.

Gossamer · Nov 2, 2006, 05:06 PM

Yeah, and don't coil it up. If it's pulling too much current, it can get very hot. I know of cords that have melted and then shorted out because they were coiled up.

hookem2oo7 · Nov 2, 2006, 05:31 PM

I've seen a 220v welder being used with an extension cord for several hours. Surely if that works without causing problems...

ghporter · Nov 2, 2006, 05:55 PM

A GAS stove, as hart mentioned he had, won't run on 220, but 110 instead. Hart, are you replacing the old gas stove with a new GAS stove, or an ELECTRIC one? BIG difference here!

hookem2oo7 · Nov 2, 2006, 06:00 PM

I think he's getting a new stove, and he wants to be able to use it while he's waiting on an electrician to install a new 220v outlet

ghporter · Nov 2, 2006, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by hookem2oo7

I think he's getting a new stove, and he wants to be able to use it while he's waiting on an electrician to install a new 220v outlet

But is the new stove gas or electric? A GAS stove won't need a 220 outlet, but an electric stove will. (And I can't imagine voluntarily going from gas to electric myself.)

memento · Nov 2, 2006, 06:05 PM

But as gas stove would most likely use 110VAC. The reason an electric stove would use 220VAC is because it uses electrical resistqance to heat the coils. The gas stove doesn't use electric power for that, so it should not even need 110VAC.

But it's probably not a big deal to use a 220VAC extension cord. I would NOT make one myself. That's asking for an electrical fire to burn down the house.

hookem2oo7 · Nov 2, 2006, 06:05 PM

I assumed it would be an electric if he needed a 220v line...could be wrong though

ghporter · Nov 2, 2006, 06:15 PM

I think the whole 220V thing is because of the picture Gossamer posted and his point that electric stoves generally use 220. The OP specified that his current stove is gas, and has an OLD, UNGROUNDED 110 outlet. To me, that means he wants to know if he can run the NEW GAS stove on an extension cord until he can get an electrician to install a NEW, GROUNDED 110 outlet.

Dork. · Nov 2, 2006, 06:41 PM

Generally, using extension cords are no problem, even for 220v circuits. What you need to take into consideration, though, is that extension cords generally increase the resistive load on the line, which consumes more current (and since P=IV, more power) than a shorter cord would. And the longer the cord, the more current is drawn. Normally, this doesn't matter, but for high-load devices, it could make a difference. So, you really need to assess the current drawn by your device, and make sure there's plenty of headroom left in the current rating for the circuit. And don't scrimp on the extension cord, either: use a heavy-duty one that's rated for the proper load. Buy a new one if you have to.

As an example, I have a small compressor that runs on normal 110V power, but sinks close to 15 amps (but not quite). Since most household 110V outlets are only rated for 15A, the instructions made a point to mention that you shouldn't use an extension cord at all with the compressor, because you can easily overload the circuit with the added resistance from the cord.

climber · Nov 3, 2006, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by memento

But as gas stove would most likely use 110VAC. The reason an electric stove would use 220VAC is because it uses electrical resistqance to heat the coils. The gas stove doesn't use electric power for that, so it should not even need 110VAC.

But it's probably not a big deal to use a 220VAC extension cord. I would NOT make one myself. That's asking for an electrical fire to burn down the house.

Some of the higher end stoves use gas for the burners on top and electric for the oven. That would mean 220 volts for those appliances. Thought I doubt that is what he is considering using in this case.

As someone pointed out earlier, gas is considered to be better than electric. Replace the stove with another gas stove unless you really don't like gas for some reason. The stoves are about the same cost. Adding a 220 volt outlet in an older house can also be quite expensive depending on the size of your existing service. I would verify with the electrician before going that route.

hart · Nov 6, 2006, 02:35 PM

This would be an all gas stove so I would guess it only draws power for the clock, maybe the starter system, oven lights, that kind of thing. I just thought to check the online manual and it shows a standard 3 prong plug, not the electrical appliance behemoth. The nearest grounded outlet happens to be 220 which is just as well.

So the consensus seems to be I could use extension cord as temporary method just don't coil cord and get as short a cord as possible so there's not a lot of extra length.

Thanks for the help. I can always count on you geniuses.
-----------------
as per manual:

Electric Requirements: A dedicated, properly grounded and
polarized branch circuit protected by a 15 amp. circuit
breaker or time delay fuse. See serial plate for proper
voltage.
Extension Cord Precautions:
Because of potential safety hazards under certain conditions,
we strongly recommend against the use of any extension
cord. However, if you still elect to use an extension cord, it is
absolutely necessary that it be a UL listed 3-wire grounding
type appliance extension cord and that the current carrying
rating of the cord in amperes be equivalent to or greater than
the branch circuit rating. Such extension cords are obtainable
through your local service organization.

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY! For personal
safety, this product must be properly grounded.
Grounding Instructions
The power cord of this appliance is equipped with a
3-prong (grounding) plug which mates with a standard
3-prong grounding wall receptacle to minimize the possibility
of electric shock hazard from this appliance. The customer
should have the wall receptacle and circuit checked by a
qualified electrician to make sure the receptacle is properly
grounded and polarized.

Where a standard two-prong wall receptacle is encountered,
it is the personal responsibility and obligation of the customer
to have it replaced with a properly grounded three-prong wall
receptacle.
DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, CUT OR
REMOVE THE THIRD (GROUND) PRONG FROM THE
POWER CORD.

residentEvil · Nov 6, 2006, 04:57 PM

do not extend a 220 stove outlet into a 110 outlet.

climber · Nov 7, 2006, 01:17 AM

If the 220 outlet is not being used, and is close enough to plug the appliance into directly, it might be possible to convert it to a 110 outlet (by an electrician). Essentially the 220 outlet is nothing more than two 110 put together. It has two hot wires and a neutral wire instead of one hot wire and a neutral. Both outlets also should have a ground wire as well, but as you discovered older homes do not.

The photo in this thread of the large 3 prong outlet is obviously a 220 outlet. But it is an older version without the ground. Newer 220 outlets use four prongs, and have a proper ground. If you used an extension cord with an adaptor on a 3 prong 220 outlet you would essentially have the same lack of a ground you have on the old 110 outlet.

Have an electrician do the work permanently before you install the stove.

Dork. · Nov 7, 2006, 08:01 AM

I didn't realize that your stove was a 110V device.
Don't plug in a 110V appliance into a 220V outlet!

It is possible to separate the circuits in a 220V outlet into two 110V circuits, but it's likely something you don't want to do unless you've had some experience working with household electrical circuits....

You're probably better off, as Glenn said, to have the electrician come and put in a new, properly grounded 110V circuit before you do anything else with the unit.

ghporter · Nov 7, 2006, 08:32 AM

In actuality, most homes are wired for 220 which is split into two different 110 legs. That means that a 220 line CANNOT be "converted" to 110, but a new 110 circuit can be installed. It has to do with how the power comes into the house and where the AC is derived from the outdoor transformer-way too many details for this discussion. Suffice to say that a licensed electrician can make this happen quickly and simply, but for it to be safe you MUST have a licensed electrician install a PROPERLY GROUNDED 110 outlet for the stove.

climber · Nov 7, 2006, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

In actuality, most homes are wired for 220 which is split into two different 110 legs. That means that a 220 line CANNOT be "converted" to 110, but a new 110 circuit can be installed. It has to do with how the power comes into the house and where the AC is derived from the outdoor transformer-way too many details for this discussion. Suffice to say that a licensed electrician can make this happen quickly and simply, but for it to be safe you MUST have a licensed electrician install a PROPERLY GROUNDED 110 outlet for the stove.

As I said before there is no single 220 line but two busses of 110 that add up to it. There are adaptors that can be found to pull the 110 from one of the busses, but they are not grounded like a normal outlet is. That is unless it has a four prong outlet, and is designed for that. I think the distinction is important, because although it can be done, it does not mean it is safe.

The real point is if he can use the existing wiring or if a new cable has to be pulled from the breaker to his kitchen. An electrician may be able to swap out the breaker and install a new outlet, and still use the existing wiring. My guess is that if his other outlets are not grounded, the service to his stove is not either, and this is a moot point and a new line will have to be pulled.

DBursey · Nov 7, 2006, 01:04 PM

Your residence is fed via two 120V lines and a grounded service neutral. 240V (or 220V) is the residential Line-to-Line voltage. 120V (or 110V) is the resulting Line to Neutral voltage.

It's inadvisable for anyone to defeat the safety of using a properly grounded three prong plug with a properly grounded outlet. It's there to prevent your electrocution in the event of an equipment short cct.

Having said that, the stove will run fine on a temporarily ungrounded outlet.

ghporter · Nov 7, 2006, 06:42 PM

climber and DBursey, I think we're all saying the same thing: 220 comes into the house as two legs from a center-tapped transformer to feed a center-referenced (center neutral) pair of 110 busses in the panelboard. And the difference between calling it "110," "115," or "120" is really semantic, since you can find variation of around 10% in just about any house over the course of a day. Calling it 120 is simply one convention.

residentEvil · Nov 7, 2006, 07:22 PM

/offtopic

mine is measured on a constant basis with daily history; i actual range from 108.7 - 124.9 on a 20amp 110v circuit i monitor (that feeds my theater).

it was cool watching the volts go down during the transformer fuse/bus bar failing a few weeks back. since i moved in, the poll and transformer are both suspect and utility and phone won't do anything about the poll until it snaps. as for the transformer's fuse/bus bar...there have been 3 installed since i've moved in (just over 3 years).

i even had the fire department out before the last bar failed. they watched it spark/arc for 10 minutes or so and said since it still works (suppling power) that can't take action until there is a fire/downed wire (whatever). utility came a few hours later and said yup, it's arcing.

what great service.

i fully protected my theater and with the meter history, great for insurance purposes when there is a more severe problem. next upgrade is to include power protection with UPS. i'll move my current power center to my tv upstairs and get the power center + UPS for the theater (so my projector can shutdown properly)

tooki · Nov 7, 2006, 07:23 PM

No, it's not just "semantic". 120/240V is the nominal voltage. Anything lower is sag due to load, but the nominal voltage is the one that should be listed.

tooki

ghporter · Nov 7, 2006, 08:59 PM

Nominal also depends on where you are on the distribution leg, and how picky the power company is about keeping to specs. In the U.S., main residential power can range from less than 110 to over 120, depending on where you wind up being in relation to a distribution station. Read this for more details from an engineering standpoint. Also, a lot of appliances are rated as needing "at least" 110 (but actually will handle as little as 100VAC if you don't stress them), which is where the vernacular term for wall current being 110V came from. And the "115VAC" term seems to have come from just being right between 110 and 120, though it is a precise standard in other applications (aircraft AC power is 115VAC at 400Hz with a typical tolerance of about 2%).

residentEvil's findings are not atypical (and Detroit Edison ow whatever they call themselves nowadays) at least used to be one of the more stringent utilities in terms of meeting standards. Ideally a customer won't see much variation, but remember that ideal is based on perfect lines and a very short distance from the distribution station to the home. The real world is full of non-ideal situations that blow this out of the water. Functionally, differentiating between "110VAC," "115VAC" and "120VAC" residential service is a waste of time, because two houses next door to each other could be fed by different distribution legs or at least different step down transformers and thus wind up being 10V apart-with no ill effect at all.

Now if the frequency wasn't pretty close, that could be a REAL problem. Early TVs based some of their timing on the power frequency, and so they really needed consistency. Some AC powered clocks still need very close tolerances on the 60Hz too. So for residential power, the voltage precision doesn't have to be very high, but frequency really does.

tooki · Nov 8, 2006, 08:36 AM

Umm, "nominal" by definition means the value that should be, i.e. the target value. Any deviation from that (even if it's within acceptable tolerances) does not make it a nominal value. The nominal value in USA is 120/240V. The acceptable range, on the other hand, is rather broad.

My point is that it's not just "convention" to call it 120V, it's called that because that is the nominal value. IMHO, anyone labeling a device with some other voltage is silly, not because it falls outside the acceptable range, but because the point of nominal values is to ensure compatibility. A person shouldn't HAVE to know that 110V, 115V, 117V, 120V and 125V all refer to the nominally 120V system. It should just be called 120V.

tooki

hart · Nov 8, 2006, 08:55 AM

whoa, Nelly! I think I need an electrician. I clearly am in way over my head.

The joy of an old house. Talk about safety, when we moved in we found deteriorating old electric light fixtures wired in over top of the gas light fixtures from the 19th Century with the gas still running. What's a little extension cord between appliances. ;-)