Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

olePigeon · Nov 11, 2006, 12:19 AM

Well, from my mother's side which (I think) is the side that counts?

We were sifting through several boxes of pictures and stuff that we were going to scan and archive when came across old birth certificates, immigration papers, marriage papers, etc. Turns out my great grandmother was Jewish. It makes sense that it was hidden because she was German and fled to America after Hitler took over. She married a Scottish gent, my great grandfather. So we're also apart of the Ramsay clan in Scotland.

Funny the things you find out. Pretty darn cool.

itai195 · Nov 11, 2006, 12:35 AM

Your grandmother would have had to be your great grandmother's daughter, that's how it works. If she married your great grandmother's son, then you're [technically] not Jewish. Pretty cool though, my wife suspects something similar happened in her family but they haven't found any proof.

TheWOAT · Nov 11, 2006, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by itai195

Your grandmother would have had to be your great grandmother's daughter, that's how it works. If she married your great grandmother's son, then you're [technically] not Jewish. Pretty cool though, my wife suspects something similar happened in her family but they haven't found any proof.

I learned that my mother's maiden name was considered a "Jewish surname" in Spain way back when.... But I wont claim it or assume I have license to tell jokes now. Im sure if someone did a DNA screen of my ancestry, Id have Northern African, Western European, and Native American.. all mixed up.

DeathToWindows · Nov 11, 2006, 09:57 AM

The basic rule is that for the purposes of Jewish law, one's status as a Jew is determined by the mother's line - e.g. if your grandmother, on your mother's side, was Jewish - you are as well.

lpkmckenna · Nov 11, 2006, 02:51 PM

Well, I have an Occipital bun, so I know I have some Neanderthal in me.

The Godfather · Nov 11, 2006, 02:51 PM

Does that make you eligible to become a citizen of Israel? (IF that's what you want, that is)

paul w · Nov 11, 2006, 03:08 PM

I found out something similar as well a while ago. My mother's mother's maternal grandmother, who has previously been thought to be merely French, was in fact Jewish from Russia, and kept being Jewish a secret. She lived the life of a non practicing christian.

I wondered if that made me in some way technically Jewish. Not that it matters...

Uriel · Nov 11, 2006, 03:29 PM

Being considered Jewish also depends on the sect you decide to join.

Orthodox and most Conservative sects only accept the mother being Jewish.

Reform, for the most part, and a few Conservatives accepts either the Father or the Mother as viable credentials for having a Jewish standing in the community.

Adoption also counts. Although being born out of wedlock is a whole other issue with Orthodox Jews. It gets complicated :-)

JoshuaZ · Nov 11, 2006, 06:45 PM

As opposed to me, who everyone thinks is Jewish. No, honestly. Every foreigner I meet in Japan thinks I'm Jewish because my last name is Zimmerman. I knew a lot of Zimmerman's back in the midwest, none were Jewish. Not that it bothers me, its just kind of strange.

Kevin · Nov 11, 2006, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by The Godfather

Does that make you eligible to become a citizen of Israel? (IF that's what you want, that is)

More than just Jews live in Israel.

Railroader · Nov 11, 2006, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

More than just Jews live in Israel.

I am often confused when people who don't truly under stand "Israel" talk about Israel. Do they mean the country or God's chosen people?

The Godfather · Nov 11, 2006, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

More than just Jews live in Israel.

Is that a yes or a no? *scratches head*

The Godfather · Nov 11, 2006, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I am often confused when people who don't truly under stand "Israel" talk about Israel. Do they mean the country or God's chosen people?

The context of my question clearly implies: the country in the Middle East.

Hash · Nov 11, 2006, 08:27 PM

When you meet Jews, you can pretend you one of them

I recommend reading some books about Jewish traditions though you don't look stupid when asked about some banal Jewish things and holidays. Maybe meaningless, but sometimes ethnic networks help in business. But I also recommend you be honest, and say that you have only distant links

nonhuman · Nov 11, 2006, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

More than just Jews live in Israel.

How is that relevant at all? It doesn't matter the demographics of the current population of Israel, what matters is what Israel's laws say on citizenship. And, unless things have changed that I'm not aware of, anyone who's Jewish is eligible for Israeli citizenship and therefore certain other rights such as the Right of Return.

Kevin · Nov 11, 2006, 08:39 PM

BTW Ole you should be getting your Jew Gold™ soon.

paul w · Nov 11, 2006, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

As opposed to me, who everyone thinks is Jewish. No, honestly. Every foreigner I meet in Japan thinks I'm Jewish because my last name is Zimmerman. I knew a lot of Zimmerman's back in the midwest, none were Jewish. Not that it bothers me, its just kind of strange.

I don't believe in Zimmerman.

DeathToWindows · 09:59 AM

//removed due to recognition of my own stupidity

Back to the original question however; Orthodox and Conservative Jews hold by matrilinial descent, while Reform Jews hold by either.

SSharon · Nov 11, 2006, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

BTW Ole you should be getting your Jew Gold™ soon.

lol.

I only hope others get the reference.

Railroader · Nov 11, 2006, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by The Godfather

The context of my question clearly implies: the country in the Middle East.

No, it does not.

Nodnarb · Nov 11, 2006, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

No, it does not.

Haha. How does it not? "Israel" is a country, not a "people." Jews are sometimes referred to as "Children of Israel" or some variant (Israelites), but the word Israel itself does not refer to any specific group of people.
And, even if it did, you'd have to be a moron to think The Godfather meant "Does that make you eligible to become a citizen of God's chosen people? (IF that's what you want, that is)"

Railroader · Nov 11, 2006, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Nodnarb

Haha. How does it not? "Israel" is a country, not a "people." Jews are sometimes referred to as "Children of Israel" or some variant (Israelites), but the word Israel itself does not refer to any specific group of people.
And, even if it did, you'd have to be a moron to think The Godfather meant "Does that make you eligible to become a citizen of God's chosen people? (IF that's what you want, that is)"

"haha", indeed. Thank you for reinforcing my first statement in this thread.

You might want to educate yourself: http://www.answers.com/israel&r=67

dcmacdaddy · Nov 11, 2006, 11:46 PM

Well at least you're not Mexican. We hate them here in this country. You can stay if you are a Jew.

turtle777 · Nov 11, 2006, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I am often confused when people who don't truly under stand "Israel" talk about Israel. Do they mean the country or God's chosen people?

Dude, think again:

"eligible to become a citizen of Israel?"

How could that mean God's chosen people ?

Btw, the people of Israel are called Israelis
Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

-t

turtle777 · Nov 11, 2006, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

"haha", indeed. Thank you for reinforcing my first statement in this thread.

You might want to educate yourself: Israel: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

Don't you think the answers.com definition is crap if it totally forgets to mention Israel as a country ?

-t

dcmacdaddy · Nov 11, 2006, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Dude, think again:

"eligible to become a citizen of Israel?"

How could that mean God's chosen people ?

-t

Have you seen the immigration paperwork you've got to do to get into Heaven? It's not at all easy. He's better off trying to become a citizen of Israel instead of Heaven.

The Godfather · Nov 11, 2006, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Every foreigner I meet in Japan thinks...

What about the nationals you met in Japan?

The Godfather · Nov 11, 2006, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Well, I have an Occipital bun, so I know I have some Neanderthal in me.

So, you can be casted in for a Geico commercial

Hash · Nov 12, 2006, 02:07 AM

What a crap, if a Zimmerman wants to be a Jew, even if he is not, just leave him alone. I say, it can be good for business, but some fanatics of course can reject him as being not pure enough, but reformist will view him as of their own. Whether he wants or does not want to become an Israeli citizen, is completely different question (let alone joining the heaven). It is simplest question of all. If he is Jew, then he already was the one of chosen people, but he did not know it. Thats all.

Now, whether to remain a Catholic or to become Jew, isnt it a matter of his personal choice? Catholics are also chosen people, albeit by different god. Communists are also chosen people for entering Communism or Communist heaven.

Now, lets get back to discussion. So Zimmerman finds he has Jewish roots. Somehow, that does not surprise me at all, whats really interesting why he did not know about that before. With that family name, I would guess anyone would know he has some relation to Jews, but possibly by father's line, rather than mothers.

But again, if he wants to be non Jew, its also OK. He may become a buddhist as well and will enter different heaven then

Nodnarb · Nov 12, 2006, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

"haha", indeed. Thank you for reinforcing my first statement in this thread.

You might want to educate yourself: Israel: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

Once again, HAHA.
Wrong my friend. The word "Israel" in no way means God's chosen people. In the old testament, Jacob, who is called Yisra'el (or more commonly nowadays, Israel), is the name you are getting from your reliable answers.com. Israel is in NO WAY a general term to describe all of "God's chosen people." As I have already explained, Israelites, Children of Israel (Yisra'el, meaning Jacobs 12 sons who formed the 12 tribes), Jews, etc. are all fine names to refer to Jewish people. You would sound extremely ignorant and stupid by saying to someone "Hey man, are you an Israel??" Israeli would work here, but this would mean person from Israel, just like American means person from America.
Wikipedia's disambiguation page for "Israel": Israel (disambiguation) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I could probably go on to further prove that Israel is in no way a blanket statement containing the Jewish people, but hopefully you've gotten my point.

And futhermore, "in context," even IF you were right, your definition still makes absolutely no sense the way it was worded.

I might want to educate myself? Hows about you do a little research before you try to tell a guy about his own religion, eh?

Buckaroo · Nov 12, 2006, 02:27 AM

?????? Can't anyone become Jewish? What if I wanted to switch to Jew . . . what is it Jewdisim? Can't I go to a Jewish church and ask to join and comply with what ever rituals that they require? I've been circumsized, so that's one thing I wouldn't have to worry about.

Buckaroo · Nov 12, 2006, 02:29 AM

So it would depend on my Mothers side of the family. My Great Grand Mother was a Smith. I don't know any farther back than that.

Nodnarb · Nov 12, 2006, 02:40 AM

Yes, you could convert to Judaism, and it would be at a temple (or synagogue), not Jewish church. As far as I know, anyone who wants can convert to Judaism, regardless of family heritage.
The mother/father debate is that if your mother (or recently enough down your mother's family line) is Jewish, then in the eyes of the Jewish people, you are a Jew, even if you never knew and are a self-proclaimed Christian, they still view you as Jewish. It's kind of like a trap, you just cant leave haha.
But this is not saying that if you have no Jewish ancestry, you cannot be Jewish. If you walked into a synagogue tomorrow, you would have to talk to a rabbi and perform the necessary acts (most likely studying the Torah, similar to a Bar Mitzvah...this is just a guess) and then have a conversion ceremony and bam you're Jewish.

Buckaroo · Nov 12, 2006, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Nodnarb

Yes, you could convert to Judaism, and it would be at a temple (or synagogue), not Jewish church. As far as I know, anyone who wants can convert to Judaism, regardless of family heritage.
The mother/father debate is that if your mother (or recently enough down your mother's family line) is Jewish, then in the eyes of the Jewish people, you are a Jew, even if you never knew and are a self-proclaimed Christian, they still view you as Jewish. It's kind of like a trap, you just cant leave haha.
But this is not saying that if you have no Jewish ancestry, you cannot be Jewish. If you walked into a synagogue tomorrow, you would have to talk to a rabbi and perform the necessary acts (most likely studying the Torah, similar to a Bar Mitzvah...this is just a guess) and then have a conversion ceremony and bam you're Jewish.

Cool

Buckaroo · Nov 12, 2006, 02:46 AM

To become Muslim, I take you have to first kill a bunch of people including other Muslims?

Or is that only if you want to become a fanatic Muslim.

The Godfather · Nov 12, 2006, 03:04 AM

^ You know better than that, Buckaroo

Buckaroo · Nov 12, 2006, 03:07 AM

hehehehe

DeathToWindows · Nov 12, 2006, 07:19 AM

Well, the question on conversion is a valid one; as a general rule, there is a great deal of study involved first - depending on what movement you're working with (e.g. Reform, Conservative, Orthodox) the process doesn't usually take any less than two years, and can take far more than that. It is deeply non-trivial and the Rabbi performing the conversion is required to attempt to dissuade you three separate times...

It should be noted that adult males who were not circumsized as infants would generally have to be... not a pleasant experience, although probably not as bad as it all sounds.

The issue of being Jewish by inheritance is merely an issue of jewish law and has minimal impact on one's day to day functioning - believe me, I help run a minyan on a college campus and no one is going to come up to me and ask "Is your mother Jewish?"

JoshuaZ · Nov 12, 2006, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by The Godfather

What about the nationals you met in Japan?

The nations I meet in Japan figure every western white person is christian of some sort. I doubt they would ever think someone is Jewish.

When people meet me usually its a nice outburst in Japanese that revolves around me being tall, white, or having light brown hair. Then I say something in Japanese and they respond about how great my Japanese is. No, honestly, this is how about 95% of my day goes.

vmarks · Nov 12, 2006, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by DeathToWindows

Well, the question on conversion is a valid one; as a general rule, there is a great deal of study involved first - depending on what movement you're working with (e.g. Reform, Conservative, Orthodox) the process doesn't usually take any less than two years, and can take far more than that. It is deeply non-trivial and the Rabbi performing the conversion is required to attempt to dissuade you three separate times...

It should be noted that adult males who were not circumsized as infants would generally have to be... not a pleasant experience, although probably not as bad as it all sounds.

Not wholly correct on its own: Many Jews by birth in the Soviet Union were not circumsized, as it would have been problematic under the oppressive regime. The Orthodox community of Israel has accepted that these uncircumsized men are in fact Jews and none of them are required to be circumsized.

I do not know of brit milah for adult converts, because it's something meant to be done within the first eight days of life.

The issue of being Jewish by inheritance is merely an issue of jewish law and has minimal impact on one's day to day functioning - believe me, I help run a minyan on a college campus and no one is going to come up to me and ask "Is your mother Jewish?"

lpkmckenna · Nov 12, 2006, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

My Great Grand Mother was a Smith.

Wow, what a trailblazer she was.

Railroader · Nov 12, 2006, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Well at least you're not Mexican. We hate them here in this country. You can stay if you are a Jew.

Oh really? Was that a jab at my heritage? Lame!

Railroader · Nov 12, 2006, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Don't you think the answers.com definition is crap if it totally forgets to mention Israel as a country ?

-t

I was going for the lowest common denominator. Which apparently this thread is filled with.

Railroader · Nov 12, 2006, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Dude, think again:

"eligible to become a citizen of Israel?"

How could that mean God's chosen people ?

Btw, the people of Israel are called Israelis
Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

-t

So, wouldn't it have been more accurate for him to ask if he could become an Israeli?

And the Children of Israel are called Jews.

Railroader · Nov 12, 2006, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Nodnarb

Once again, HAHA.
Wrong my friend. The word "Israel" in no way means God's chosen people. In the old testament, Jacob, who is called Yisra'el (or more commonly nowadays, Israel), is the name you are getting from your reliable answers.com. Israel is in NO WAY a general term to describe all of "God's chosen people." As I have already explained, Israelites, Children of Israel (Yisra'el, meaning Jacobs 12 sons who formed the 12 tribes), Jews, etc. are all fine names to refer to Jewish people. You would sound extremely ignorant and stupid by saying to someone "Hey man, are you an Israel??" Israeli would work here, but this would mean person from Israel, just like American means person from America.
Wikipedia's disambiguation page for "Israel": Israel (disambiguation) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I could probably go on to further prove that Israel is in no way a blanket statement containing the Jewish people, but hopefully you've gotten my point.

And futhermore, "in context," even IF you were right, your definition still makes absolutely no sense the way it was worded.

I might want to educate myself? Hows about you do a little research before you try to tell a guy about his own religion, eh?

"Ha ha"?!?! You find this stuff funny?

I figured you weren't very smart, that's why I quoted the answers.com page for you.

I guess you just don't get my point. Go on and keep laughing to yourself. At least you're happy in your ignorance and misunderstanding.

turtle777 · Nov 12, 2006, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

"Ha ha"?!?! You find this stuff funny?

I figured you weren't very smart, that's why I quoted the answers.com page for you.

I guess you just don't get my point. Go on and keep laughing to yourself. At least you're happy in your ignorance and misunderstanding.

Dude, chill out. You got pwned, at least, own it.

-t

Railroader · Nov 12, 2006, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Dude, chill out. You got pwned, at least, own it.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/turtle777/owned111.jpg[IMG]

-t

Nope. I simply pointed out that people often confuse the term "Israel" and he proved my point. No one got "owned". It's sad that people even think like that.

turtle777 · Nov 12, 2006, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

Nope. I simply pointed out that people often confuse the term "Israel" and he proved my point. No one got "owned". It's sad that people even think like that.

You got at least pwned on your choice of reference. That answer.com reference is crap.

Pointing out later that you wanted something on his / my level is LAME.

-t

Railroader · Nov 12, 2006, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

You got at least pwned on your choice of reference. That answer.com reference is crap.

Pointing out later that you wanted something on his / my level is LAME.

-t

Hmmm... whatever. I do what I want! /CARTMAN]

Angelo78 · 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

To become Muslim, I take you have to first kill a bunch of people including other Muslims?

Or is that only if you want to become a fanatic Muslim.

I assume you were "attempting" humor, but in truth it's not at all funny. Why would you even write something like that on a public forum? I'm not saying you don't have the right to express yourself or believe what you want. However, if your not prejudice towards Muslims why make yourself look as if you are?