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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning?

View Poll Results: Which do you have? (Choose only ONE. Includes stand-alones and game consoles.)
Poll Options:
HD DVD 34 votes (17.09%)
Blu-ray 87 votes (43.72%)
Both 14 votes (7.04%)
Neither 70 votes (35.18%)
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll
Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning? (Page 154)
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Mar 19, 2008, 03:29 PM
 
Pioneer BDP-95FD review - Engadget HD

Boot times are out of control, 1 minute to eject from off, 35 seconds to load a disc

$1000 and it is way slower, no wireless and no 2.0 ready compared to a PS3. No that is not directed at you Eug just pointing out what a steal us PS3 owners got for our money.
     
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Mar 19, 2008, 03:34 PM
 
WTF are they thinking?
     
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Mar 19, 2008, 03:43 PM
 
oh this is intimidating:
     
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Mar 19, 2008, 03:46 PM
 
The thing on the bottom isn't the player. It's the receiver.
     
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Mar 19, 2008, 03:47 PM
 
i know that.. i was just commenting on the pic
     
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Mar 19, 2008, 11:33 PM
 
So, I have confirmed that these HD DVD on DVD-R burned by Roxio Toast work fine in DVD Player.app... with one caveat.

It skips on my iMac, when played from the internal laptop slot-load drive. I guess the drive can't handle the transfer rate, cuz I burned it 26 Mbps MPEG2. However, whenI loaded the disc into an external Firewire desktop DVD drive, it worked fine.

Similarly, it skipped on my Toshiba standalone, presumably also because it couldn't handle the transfer rate for DVD media.

I will try again with H.264, at a much lower bitrate this time.
     
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Mar 19, 2008, 11:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² View Post
oh this is intimidating:
Ah. Designed by a true engineer.

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Mar 19, 2008, 11:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
So, I have confirmed that these HD DVD on DVD-R burned by Roxio Toast work fine in DVD Player.app... with one caveat.

It skips on my iMac, when played from the internal laptop slot-load drive. I guess the drive can't handle the transfer rate, cuz I burned it 26 Mbps MPEG2. However, whenI loaded the disc into an external Firewire desktop DVD drive, it worked fine.

Similarly, it skipped on my Toshiba standalone, presumably also because it couldn't handle the transfer rate for DVD media.

I will try again with H.264, at a much lower bitrate this time.
Is the picture quality that of DVD or more like HD-DVD?
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Mar 19, 2008, 11:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by cjrivera View Post
Is the picture quality that of DVD or more like HD-DVD?
The output from Toast with MPEG2 looks like broadcast HD. ie. Noticeably better than DVD, but not as good as real HD DVD.

Note however, that the source I used wasn't the greatest in the first place. They were Quicktime HD videos which are reasonably good HD, but definitely not up to HD DVD quality.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 12:43 AM
 
Burning the end of the Superbowl as a BR now. I'll report what happens.

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Mar 20, 2008, 01:03 AM
 
Ok, I burned the last part of the Superbowl that I downloaded from the TiVo Series 3. 33:34 and 720p. I was able to get Toast 9 to burn it to a DVD+R as a "Blu-Ray Video". The result?

Apple's DVD player crashed. Great.
I popped it in the PS3 and the machine saw it as a "Data Disc". I went into the directory structure to "Stream" and played the video. Boom....video worked perfectly.

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Mar 20, 2008, 01:05 AM
 
Uh ya, I think it is better if you just stream whatever these video's are from one of your Mac's. This disk burning is almost silly in this day and age.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 01:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Uh ya, I think it is better if you just stream whatever these video's are from one of your Mac's. This disk burning is almost silly in this day and age.
haha

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Mar 20, 2008, 01:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Uh ya, I think it is better if you just stream whatever these video's are from one of your Mac's. This disk burning is almost silly in this day and age.
Yea, it is so easy to send home movies to the relatives on a hard drive.
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Mar 20, 2008, 01:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by climber View Post
Yea, it is so easy to send home movies to the relatives on a hard drive.
Ya everyones grandma has an HD set that wants you to burn HD video's to regular old DVD's.
Bitch please. I was talking about burning disks just to watch it on your own equipment 20 feet away.

Nothing wrong with burning DVD's for grandma if she no longer has VHS.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 01:38 AM
 
*ahem*

Anyway, I know that burning BR discs are like some kind of exact science so tomorrow I'll try again with an HD-DVD formatted DVD+R and see how that goes.

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Mar 20, 2008, 08:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
So, I have confirmed that these HD DVD on DVD-R burned by Roxio Toast work fine in DVD Player.app... with one caveat.

It skips on my iMac, when played from the internal laptop slot-load drive. I guess the drive can't handle the transfer rate, cuz I burned it 26 Mbps MPEG2. However, whenI loaded the disc into an external Firewire desktop DVD drive, it worked fine.

Similarly, it skipped on my Toshiba standalone, presumably also because it couldn't handle the transfer rate for DVD media.

I will try again with H.264, at a much lower bitrate this time.
Well, that's dumb. I can't burn HD DVD at all if I use H.264 encoding. Toast keeps telling me that there's something wrong with the source material, which is of course false. If I burn the exact same stuff to MPEG2, it works fine. There's something seriously wrong with Toast's H.264 support.

BTW, for MPEG2, I tried burning at 18 Mbps, and that's still too high a bitrate on DVD media. My iMac's DVD drive can't keep up for reads so the playback skips. I'm now trying 15 Mbps, but I suspect that still will be too fast. Are these laptop DVD drives only 1X read when the data is on the inner tracks? If so, that means only about 11 Mbps is going to work, and that just doesn't cut it for MPEG2.

They really need to get the H.264 support working properly.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 08:29 AM
 
Eug, is it a size issue with the output file, or something else? MPEG2 supposedly gets a lot of mileage from its lossy compression, and h.264 is supposedly a lot better because it isn't lossy-could Toast just be refusing to burn because your media is too small for the results?

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Mar 20, 2008, 08:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Eug, is it a size issue with the output file, or something else? MPEG2 supposedly gets a lot of mileage from its lossy compression, and h.264 is supposedly a lot better because it isn't lossy-could Toast just be refusing to burn because your media is too small for the results?
No, I'm only burning 2-8 minute clips for testing purposes.

The 2 minute clips make HD DVD images that can fit on even a CD, but I'm using DVD because HD DVD on CD-R isn't an officially supported HD DVD format. HD DVD on DVD-R is an officially supported format. (I don't know what "officially supported" means now though, considering the format is now defunct. )

And like I said, burning with MPEG2 works fine, but H.264 doesn't, despite the fact that MPEG2 takes up a lot more space than H.264.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 08:39 AM
 
Oh. I had the compression thing with H.264 confused. Rats-I'm no help on this.

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Mar 20, 2008, 08:48 AM
 
Just to clarify...

Most people think that for well-encoded material, H.264 is usually in the range of about 2-3X as efficient as MPEG2. In other words, if an MPEG2 image was 5 GB, you could expect an H.264 image to be about 2 GB and still maintain the same quality. Remember when Blu-ray first came out? People were complaining about the image quality of some discs... because BD50 didn't exist, and everything was MPEG2. HD DVD looked better, partially because they paid more attention to the transfers, and partially because they were using HD30 with WMV/VC-1 (which is similar in efficiency to H.264/AVC). Not only was HD DVD using a (slightly) bigger disc, they were using an encoder that was nearly 3X as space efficient.

To put it another way, you could get a 1.5 hour 1080p movie with reasonable video quality on a single 8.5 GB DVD-R. It wouldn't look very good if you tried to cram that in using MPEG2 however.

But like I said, I'm only doing 2-8 minute test encodes, so all the above is moot anyway.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 09:12 AM
 
Sony pledges Blu-ray Profile 2.0 PS3 update this month | Register Hardware

The update, due later this month, will take the PS3's firmware to version 2.20, Sony said. BD Live mandates an internet connection and 1GB of local storage for cached data. While some Blu-ray Disc players lack both of these, they're both ready to go on the PS3.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 09:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Sony pledges Blu-ray Profile 2.0 PS3 update this month | Register Hardware

The update, due later this month, will take the PS3's firmware to version 2.20, Sony said. BD Live mandates an internet connection and 1GB of local storage for cached data. While some Blu-ray Disc players lack both of these, they're both ready to go on the PS3.
i just got my PS3 back from warranty work for the "system froze after playing a game and no mater what kind of media or how long i turn it off it never will play anything again problem" and it came with 2.20 on it. i've noticed difference in audio playback via HDMI. i noticed this in a few games and a movie. i'm like, wait a minute. when you play a video game for 6-8 hours you notice things. i checked my software...says.2.20.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 09:42 AM
 
!

lucky you

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Mar 20, 2008, 09:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
!

lucky you
not sure what new features i should be getting in 2.20 (aside form live content on some new movies coming out) but i will be interested in the complete release notes when i find them. i'm getting a better wireless signal too. i use to drop often (same location, set up) but now i'm rock steady.

could be the firmware, or could be the unit. i didn't get mine back...i got an entirely new unit/serial number. i could have had bad HDMI and wireless before just because of the unit. don't know
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 10:32 AM
 
Confirmed.

Toast 9 is borked for H.264 encoded hi-def.

Roxio forums
( Last edited by Eug; Mar 20, 2008 at 10:50 AM. )
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Sony pledges Blu-ray Profile 2.0 PS3 update this month | Register Hardware

The update, due later this month, will take the PS3's firmware to version 2.20, Sony said. BD Live mandates an internet connection and 1GB of local storage for cached data. While some Blu-ray Disc players lack both of these, they're both ready to go on the PS3.
2.17 was released last week
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Mar 20, 2008, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
2.17 was released last week
Not sure what you're getting at.

The update we're talking about is 2.20.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
2.17 was released last week
Ya so. It was just bug fixes.

This new one sounds like it has to be out by April 8th so all the live features work on the new disks.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 08:09 PM
 
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 08:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Well, that's dumb. I can't burn HD DVD at all if I use H.264 encoding. Toast keeps telling me that there's something wrong with the source material, which is of course false. If I burn the exact same stuff to MPEG2, it works fine. There's something seriously wrong with Toast's H.264 support.

BTW, for MPEG2, I tried burning at 18 Mbps, and that's still too high a bitrate on DVD media. My iMac's DVD drive can't keep up for reads so the playback skips. I'm now trying 15 Mbps, but I suspect that still will be too fast. Are these laptop DVD drives only 1X read when the data is on the inner tracks? If so, that means only about 11 Mbps is going to work, and that just doesn't cut it for MPEG2.

They really need to get the H.264 support working properly.
Interesting.

26 Mbps DVD+R MPEG2 - Skips on iMac and Toshiba standalone
18 Mbps DVD+R MPEG2 - Skips on iMac and Toshiba standalone
15 Mbps DVD+R MPEG2 - Works fine on iMac, but skips on Toshiba standalone

26 Mbps DVD-R MPEG2 - Works fine on both iMac and Toshiba standalone

It would seem that these drives don't like DVD+R much. Unfortunately, H.264 is still borked, however.

EDIT:

Roxio says:
We're working on this... but I have authored AVC discs on DVD media.

I'll post an update when we have more information to share, right now we're gathering test files and working on a solution.
( Last edited by Eug; Mar 20, 2008 at 08:59 PM. )
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 09:45 PM
 
Seriously, have you tried streaming the same files with connect 360 and your Xbox? Just wondering.
     
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Mar 21, 2008, 01:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Seriously, have you tried streaming the same files with connect 360 and your Xbox? Just wondering.
Doesn't work. Not enough bandwidth.
     
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Mar 21, 2008, 12:27 PM
 
If anyone wants to try it out, I converted a short Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer QuickTime HD Trailer to HD DVD.

Silver Surfer Trailer HD DVD (260 MB, 26 Mbps MPEG2)

You don't need Toast to mount it in OS X. You can just use Disk Utility. You can even burn it from Disk Utility, and it will work fine in both DVD Player.app and on standalone players. The video has some noticeable problems with colour gradients, but most of that was present in the original QuickTime source.
     
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Mar 21, 2008, 12:48 PM
 
I've been having problems transferring the Star Trek 1080p trailer to a Blu-Ra project. It keeps telling me error -18771 "problem with the source". I even changed it to 1920x1080 MP4, 48k and still nothing.
( Last edited by starman; Mar 21, 2008 at 01:05 PM. )

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Mar 21, 2008, 01:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Doesn't work. Not enough bandwidth.
Wireless? Cuz with my ethernet connection to my xbox I can easily play 720p blu-ray rips without a single stutter.
     
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Mar 21, 2008, 01:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Wireless? Cuz with my ethernet connection to my xbox I can easily play 720p blu-ray rips without a single stutter.
Wireless.

My Xbox 360 is on the opposite side of the house as the iMac, and there is no wired Ethernet connecting the two rooms.


Originally Posted by starman View Post
I've been having problems transferring the Star Trek 1080p trailer to a Blu-Ra project. It keeps telling me error -18771 "problem with the source". I even changed it to 1920x1080 MP4, 48k and still nothing.
The automatic encoding settings and the custom H.264 encoding settings simply don't work for me either. I get the same error. Roxio is aware of this and is working on a solution. The only way I can get it to work is if I use a custom encode with MPEG2, which unfortunately only looks good once you're over 20 Mbps. My example HD DVD image was burned using 26 Mbps MPEG2, and thus is nearly twice as big as it really should be.
     
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Mar 21, 2008, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Wireless.

My Xbox 360 is on the opposite side of the house as the iMac, and there is no wired Ethernet connecting the two rooms.
Is this the official wireless adapter or that other thing? Even so I am surprised it can't handle the bandwidth as 10 gigs an over an hour isn't too bad.
     
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Mar 21, 2008, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Is this the official wireless adapter or that other thing? Even so I am surprised it can't handle the bandwidth as 10 gigs an over an hour isn't too bad.
Official wireless adapter. (Third party adapters wouldn't work either, unless they're 802.11n.)

10 Gigs over an hour is over 22 Mbps. That's too fast for most Wireless G even if the Xbox 360 is sitting right next to the access point.



Even 802.11n would be problematic in many situations.



( Last edited by Eug; Mar 21, 2008 at 01:39 PM. )
     
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Mar 21, 2008, 02:29 PM
 
Lower bitrates then byatch
     
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Mar 21, 2008, 02:35 PM
 
I have the old Quicktime 6 MPEG2 plugin. Does that still work? I haven't installed it yet. I could now but I'm in the middle of editing my latest show.

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Mar 21, 2008, 06:15 PM
 
I still don't get what the whole "Live" features are supposed to do as it sounds like these things should just be on the disk to begin with:
Sony Unveils BD-Live Extras for 'Walk Hard' Blu-ray | High-Def Digest
     
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Mar 21, 2008, 09:22 PM
 
not all BD live features are thing you download...

one of the live features is let you talk with others watching the movie at the same time.

another would be live trivia; again, with someone else watching at the same time.

you know, the SAME **** people do in theaters that you have to keep turning around and telling them to shut the **** up!

but now, the assholes can do it at home and only bother themselves.
     
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Mar 23, 2008, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by residentEvil View Post
not sure what new features i should be getting in 2.20 (aside form live content on some new movies coming out) but i will be interested in the complete release notes when i find them. i'm getting a better wireless signal too. i use to drop often (same location, set up) but now i'm rock steady.

could be the firmware, or could be the unit. i didn't get mine back...i got an entirely new unit/serial number. i could have had bad HDMI and wireless before just because of the unit. don't know
Lol hey there, nice to know you have 2.20!

erm, could we see some pictures please?!



Thanks!
     
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Mar 23, 2008, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by residentEvil View Post
not all BD live features are thing you download...

one of the live features is let you talk with others watching the movie at the same time.

another would be live trivia; again, with someone else watching at the same time.
Ya nothing sounds more fun than using a remote control to have a conversation with someone over your TV while watching a movie. No way would using your computer or phone be a better method.

Trivia while watching a movie? barf.

We all NEED 2.0 spec players now as this sounds as cool as "true PiP".
     
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Mar 24, 2008, 08:36 AM
 

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Mar 24, 2008, 10:02 AM
 
Make it iPhone/iPod compatible and I'm on board. But PSP? Please.

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Mar 24, 2008, 10:35 AM
 
Is it possible or will it be possible to copy Blu-ray films onto the PS3 itself? So you can rent or borrow a movie and then watch it a few weeks later after you've taken it back?

I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
     
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Mar 24, 2008, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by mrtew View Post
Is it possible or will it be possible to copy Blu-ray films onto the PS3 itself? So you can rent or borrow a movie and then watch it a few weeks later after you've taken it back?
I don't see the point in that. If you rented the BR, that should be your rental. Copying it to the hard drive would be like a double-rental.

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Mar 24, 2008, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I don't see the point in that. If you rented the BR, that should be your rental. Copying it to the hard drive would be like a double-rental.
Then you do see the point. I want to 'have' the movie for longer than I actually rented it for. Unless you want to know the 'point' as far as Sony is concerned... the point then would be to sell more PS3's by enabling the huge hard drive to be actually useful for something. Or maybe you mean what's the point for Blockbuster. Maybe it's none of their business since I still rented it from them and when I watch it is irrelevant unless they actually think I'm going to rent it twice. Or maybe I'm more likely to rent movies if I know I'll be able to watch them again later. That would be a good point. Everybody wins. You could say I'm trying to 'buy' movies for the price of a rental, but since a 60 gig hard drive would only hold two or three Blu-ray movies it's more like a cache than a library. I assume from your reply that your answer to my question is 'no' it's not possible?

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