[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Eug 

If I owned one of those early $$$$ Blu-ray standalones without PIP and which are not upgradable to include PIP, I'd be majorly p!ssed. WTF were they thinking anyway?

EDIT:

Here is a quote from a Blu-ray insider:

"It's not a BD-J issue at all. Secondary video was one of the last features added to the Blu-ray specification (perhaps in response to it being part of the HD DVD specification, but I wasn't present at discussions to know the motivation). The BDA put higher mandatory performance requirements on the secondary video, in effect requiring it to support the same specs as primary video (HD DVD has greatly reduced bandwidth requirements for secondary video). As a result the first generation chipsets from Broadcom and Sigma which had already been designed into most of the standalone players were unable to meet these specs, hence the "BD-Video 1.0" profile was permitted until a date by which most thought it would be feasible to produce 1.1 players. More recently, in response to apparent difficulties in meeting the June deadline, the date was pushed back to the end of October."

Ouch.

It wouldn't bother me at all. PIP IMHO is a novelty. I'm sure there are people out there that would disagree, but for me, if it never had PIP, I'd be fine.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

It wouldn't bother me at all. PIP IMHO is a novelty. I'm sure there are people out there that would disagree, but for me, if it never had PIP, I'd be fine.

Sure, but directors commentary is going to start being PIP. It already is on HD-DVD...

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Sure, but directors commentary is going to start being PIP. It already is on HD-DVD...

I guess I could see that being a bump up from the current DVD format, but it wouldn't completely change things for me.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

It wouldn't bother me at all. PIP IMHO is a novelty. I'm sure there are people out there that would disagree, but for me, if it never had PIP, I'd be fine.

Yes, there are many who would disagree. In fact I suspect this is why Blu-ray is now incorporating it.

So...

* The Blu-ray manufacturers didn't want this included because it would be more expensive to implement, so they left it out of the spec.
* HD DVD made it mandatory, so all players had it.
* Blu-ray panicked and added it to the spec at the last minute, but by then it was too late to put it in the spec for 1st generation players.
* HD DVDs came out with PIP commentaries from neutral studios. The corresponding Blu-ray discs had no PIP commentary at all (eg. Batman Begins, Mission Impossible: III)
* Blu-ray fans started to grumble at the missing content. (And yes this happened. Just check the AVS Forums.)
+ Blu-ray re-prioritized implementation of PIP support to make sure it indeed does get implemented, but 1st generation Blu-ray standalone owners are left out in the cold.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Yes, there are many who would disagree. In fact I suspect this is why Blu-ray is now incorporating it.

So...

* The Blu-ray manufacturers didn't want this included because it would be more expensive to implement, so they left it out of the spec.
* HD DVD made it mandatory, so all players had it.
* Blu-ray panicked and added it to the spec at the last minute, but by then it was too late to put it in the spec for 1st generation players.
* HD DVDs came out with PIP commentaries from neutral studios. The corresponding Blu-ray discs had no PIP commentary at all (eg. Batman Begins, Mission Impossible: III)
* Blu-ray fans started to grumble at the missing content. (And yes this happened. Just check the AVS Forums.)
+ Blu-ray re-prioritized implementation of PIP support to make sure it indeed does get implemented, but 1st generation Blu-ray standalone owners are left out in the cold.

Interesting. I guess I don't but too much value on the PIP feature. Mountains out of molehills IMHO. I'm sure true movie junkies will disagree.

[icruise]

Honestly, it sounds to me that both formats are scrambling to make up for their deficiencies, and they're probably both going to leave some early adopters behind (which is too bad). I think Blu-ray probably has a better chance of implementing things like PiP than HD-DVD has of actually realizing the increases in storage capacity that they've been working on, though.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

[quote=goMac;3338311]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

Interesting. I guess I don't but too much value on the PIP feature. Mountains out of molehills IMHO. I'm sure true movie junkies will disagree.

I for one will never use it. Ever. My $4000 TV didn't even have it.

At any rate keep in mind that BR already DOES do PIP it just cheats by making 2 versions of the film one with and one without and it works on all current hardware. They can do this because they got double the storage over HD-DVD so why not?

The only advantage to this java version is to save space.... they don't need it though.

EVEN IF they don't have the room to do this on one 50GB disk they can easily throw in a second "Special features" disk. Actually it has already been done and upcoming tiles are double disks also not because they need the room but because it adds a couple bucks extra to the manufacturer but then they can sell it as a "Two disk special edition" and charge more for it. They did it with DVD's for the past 8 years and nobody has cared yet.

[Kenneth]

So what's so important about PIP?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Honestly, it sounds to me that both formats are scrambling to make up for their deficiencies, and they're probably both going to leave some early adopters behind (which is too bad). I think Blu-ray probably has a better chance of implementing things like PiP than HD-DVD has of actually realizing the increases in storage capacity that they've been working on, though.

That doesn't make sense. Blu-ray has already said they likely can't implement PIP on 1st generation standalone players. The way they are going to accomplish this is by orphaning those people. Luckily for Blu-ray, the numbers of Blu-ray standalone owners is quite small. Maybe the uber-expensive price of these players worked in Blu-ray's favour, since most Blu-ray owners just got the PS3, whether they wanted a console or not.

In contrast, triple-layer HD DVD has already been demoed using existing drives (with I believe firmware mods). That said, I don't see it ever being implemented in standalone players. It's not even part of the HD DVD spec, nor has it even been submitted for consideration to be part of the spec (as of yet).

P.S. FWIW, Ben Waggoner claims it is possible to create a 30 GB HD DVD with LOTR: ROTK extended edition (over 4 hours), with excellent video and audio quality. He states it could have a single TrueHD track, with a couple of alternate Dolby Digital Plus tracks. However, he also says there would be little room left over for any HD extras. Those would have to go on a second disc. I guess it likely wouldn't have a PIP track either.

Also, IIRC, he said it wouldn't have been possible early last year, since their encoding methods were not mature enough. Now though they've tweaked the audio and video encoding software and authoring tools enough to make this quite feasible.

That's another reason (besides cost) I think triple-layer HD DVD will never see the light of day.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I for one will never use it. Ever. My $4000 TV didn't even have it.

The point is not to include it on the TV, but on the player.

At any rate keep in mind that BR already DOES do PIP it just cheats by making 2 versions of the film one with and one without and it works on all current hardware. They can do this because they got double the storage over HD-DVD so why not?

The only advantage to this java version is to save space.... they don't need it though.

If they don't need it, then why are they doing it, and why did they to as far as to issue a press release giving a target date?

Despite your protests that it isn't needed, the Blu-ray Association felt it was an important enough feature to screw their early adopters over.

Ironically, I'm not even a huge fan of PIP either. I like it for some stuff, but could live without it, although I do consider it a bonus. However, it's clear that some people really want it, especially now that they've seen it done already on several several HD DVDs.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Eug 

That doesn't make sense. Blu-ray has already said they likely can't implement PIP on 1st generation standalone players. The way they are going to accomplish this is by orphaning those people.

Um, isn't that precisely what I said? Blu-ray is going to screw its early adopters to get things like PIP, and if HD-DVD really wants to up its storage space, it's going to have to screw its early adopters. I think we agree here.

[Eug]

My point was that I don't think HD DVD is "scrambling" to get TL45 or TL51. It was a tech demo, but similar to the tech demos of 200 GB Blu-ray, IMO. If they were "scrambling" then we would already have a formal submission to the DVD Forum for consideration of triple-layer by now. That AFAIK, has not happened, despite the fact that TL45 was demo'd a very long time ago.

Furthermore, the fact that now authoring tools make four hour movies feasible on HD30, the whole thing about triple-layer is now moot.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

P.S. FWIW, Ben Waggoner claims it is possible to create a 30 GB HD DVD with LOTR: ROTK extended edition (over 4 hours), with excellent video and audio quality. He states it could have a single TrueHD track, with a couple of alternate Dolby Digital Plus tracks. However, he also says there would be little room left over for any HD extras. Those would have to go on a second disc. I guess it likely wouldn't have a PIP track either.

Compression is so good these days I'm really not sure size is going to be much of an issue. 30 gigs is more than adequate for an HD movie.

[Jawbone54]

This whole thread has left me in the dust for the last 20 pages.

I'd consider myself a slightly above-average consumer when it comes to the HD-DVD/BluRay wars, and I think most people think of this the way that I do: I'm waiting until one side wins before I make my choice. I don't care about the technology; I care about the movies. Wherever they are in 12 months, I'll be.

Everyone's waiting it out.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Kenneth 

So what's so important about PIP?

It is important now that HD-DVD backers know BR doesn't' have it as yet and makes a nice distraction to the poor studio support and sales of HD.

The Decent on BR has PIP and I can't watch more than a few minutes as it is a snooze. I want the damn movie in top quality and that is it.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Compression is so good these days I'm really not sure size is going to be much of an issue. 30 gigs is more than adequate for an HD movie.

Like the King Kong on HD?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Like the King Kong on HD?

I have King Kong on HD. The image quality is STELLAR, and it has a 1.5 Mbps Dolby Digital Plus track (for the main audio track), as well as some PIP features.

In fact, it was called "frame perfect" by one professional film restorer, and it continues to get rave reviews for both its audio and its video.

So, yes like King Kong on HD, which BTW, used a much less mature set of encoding and authoring tools than what is available now.