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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning?

View Poll Results: Which do you have? (Choose only ONE. Includes stand-alones and game consoles.)
Poll Options:
HD DVD 34 votes (17.09%)
Blu-ray 87 votes (43.72%)
Both 14 votes (7.04%)
Neither 70 votes (35.18%)
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll
Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning? (Page 2)
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Dec 1, 2006, 01:39 AM
 
Beta is going to make a comeback. You just wait and see.
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Dec 1, 2006, 01:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Rumor View Post
Beta is going to make a comeback. You just wait and see.
your living in the past man !!! your still stuck on some format from the 80s !!!
     
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Dec 1, 2006, 02:49 AM
 
The 360 HD player works with OS X without any drivers needed. Just plug and play according to DL.tv
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Dec 1, 2006, 09:21 AM
 
So on another, but related tangent:

Which regular 'ol DVD player does the best job of upconverting DVD content to HD?
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Dec 1, 2006, 09:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mac Write View Post
The 360 HD player works with OS X without any drivers needed. Just plug and play according to DL.tv
Doesn't play HD-DVDs, though.
     
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Dec 1, 2006, 10:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar² View Post
Doesn't play HD-DVDs, though.
Only because there's no software player in OS X capable of playing them. As soon as Apple updates the DVD Player it will.

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Dec 1, 2006, 10:21 AM
 
I know.
     
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Dec 1, 2006, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Only because there's no software player in OS X capable of playing them. As soon as Apple updates the DVD Player it will.
No. The OS will need to be updated. OS X Tiger 10.4.8 doesn't recognize HD DVD discs at all (although it recognizes the drive just fine), presumably because the discs use a newer UDF format.

Leopard should recognize the HD DVD discs just fine though. We'd still need the software though of course.
     
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Dec 1, 2006, 12:35 PM
 
That will be nice for $200! Rip from HD-DVD and send to your iTV all for less than a stand alone HD-DVD player? I heard the HD-DVD copy protection is broken now? Wonder how long it will take for a ripper to come out?

Lots of questions...
     
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Dec 1, 2006, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by zerostar View Post
That will be nice for $200! Rip from HD-DVD and send to your iTV all for less than a stand alone HD-DVD player? I heard the HD-DVD copy protection is broken now? Wonder how long it will take for a ripper to come out?

Lots of questions...
HD DVD copy protection is not broken.

However, it can support managed copy.
     
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Dec 1, 2006, 02:34 PM
 
I know who's winning in my case: HD DVD. I was all about Blu-ray, because of the disc capacity and studio support. But I think Toshiba surprised a lot of people by pricing a player at $499 (now available for about $360 online). Since then, they've done pretty much everything right, and the Blu-ray camp has repeatedly tripped over themselves. Right now pricing and software all point to HD DVD for me. There's only one "must-have" movie for me on Blu-ray - the "Kingdom of Heaven" director's cut. Everything else I want is HD DVD exclusive or available on both formats.

That will probably change once Fox and Disney start cranking out releases (unless they declare support for HD DVD as well), but I agree with those who say this war is going to drag on a while. I'm not inclined to wait for a "victor." In another year, if I feel the need, I should be able to pick up a newly encheapened Blu-ray player or PS3 and I'll just manage with both formats. Maybe we'll have a clearer picture of the universal-player situation.

I'm only waiting for the second-gen Toshiba players to start shipping to see if I want to spring for that or pick up one of the current boxes.

Mind you, you should all consider this a warning. I have a knack for backing the wrong horse in these situations. I had a SelectaVision player back in the day, and laserdisc after that!
     
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Dec 1, 2006, 04:09 PM
 
Microsoft hints at other companies releasing HD DVD players in January

Are other manufacturers shipping HD DVD players yet?

There will be a big ramp up for the holidays, we expect other things in the pipeline at the Consumer Electronics Show, where other manufacturers will most likely be supporting HD DVD players. As Toshiba comes out with its second generation player in December, a half height version like you see in the Xbox accessory, that will be a very good thing for consumers.
     
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Dec 2, 2006, 05:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker View Post
Leopard should recognize the HD DVD discs just fine though. We'd still need the software though of course.
We already have the software. DVD Player can play HD-DVD just fine. It's the copy protection it needs updating for.

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Dec 2, 2006, 10:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
We already have the software. DVD Player can play HD-DVD just fine. It's the copy protection it needs updating for.
And that's huge. If Apple chooses not to support it initially (since they may back Blu-ray first), then we're stuck. Also, DVD Player has no VC-1 support yet, but that will come soon enough.
     
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Dec 2, 2006, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker View Post
And that's huge. If Apple chooses not to support it initially (since they may back Blu-ray first), then we're stuck. Also, DVD Player has no VC-1 support yet, but that will come soon enough.
I've heard Apple will support HD-DVD's copy protection from... somebody...

I don't have any dates or OS releases to point to though for support. I would assume eventually in 10.5.
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Dec 2, 2006, 07:02 PM
 
If Apple is serious about HD, they need Blu-Ray and HD-DVD built into the OS.

I hope to see good HD support in 10.5
     
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Dec 2, 2006, 07:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
If Apple is serious about HD, they need Blu-Ray and HD-DVD built into the OS.

I hope to see good HD support in 10.5
10.5 should fully support UDF 2.5.

It's just a matter of software and DRM, not OS hardware support.
     
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Dec 3, 2006, 01:38 AM
 
I saw some Blu-ray titles and I was impressed with how cheap they were compared to what I was expecting.

I picked up both Corpse bride and X3 as they both get praise for the wicked picture.

CB was only $20 US and X3 like $30. That ain't bad as most DVD's were 30+ the first few years.

Now all I need is that PS3 so I can actually watch them

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Dec 3, 2006, 03:02 AM
 
Unfortunately, whichever format is ACTUALLY superior is irrelevant in the "real" world.

HD-DVD has a nice head start.

"HD-DVD" sounds like the next generation of DVD while "Blue Ray" [i] sounds like [i] something else.

HD-DVD players are half the price right now and at least 8 million (360 owners) have the option of only spending $200 to get HD-DVD. The PS3 may be $400 cheaper than a stand alone Blue Ray player but it's still $100 more than an HD-DVD player and I still say that Blue Ray on the PS3 is an "also does" to most people.

Perception is everything.
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Dec 3, 2006, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
I saw some Blu-ray titles and I was impressed with how cheap they were compared to what I was expecting.
I checked my local Target for "Superman Returns" on HD DVD today. They were out, but they had the Blu-ray version for $24, just $2 more than the standard two-disc DVD. I think all the other HD DVDs in stock (including "Batman Begins") were priced at $20. I'm guessing "Superman" would have been higher as it's a combo disc, but I did read reports of folks picking it up at Wal-Mart for $20.

For this small comfort, we can thank the format war. It wasn't so long ago that people were predicting discs for both formats would be $40.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 12:39 AM
 
I bought Batman Begins for CAD$20 on sale. That's about US$17.50.

BTW, the latest update on The DVD Wars:

The only Blu-ray disc that is competing well against HD DVD is Superman Returns. The Superman Returns Blu-ray disc would come fourth after HD DVD's Superman Returns, Batman Begins, and Miami Vice.

OTOH, all of the top dozen of bestselling HD DVDs are doing better than the 2nd place Blu-ray (X-Men: III).

I'm also surprised to see that the movie A Christmas Story, is destroying X-Men: III in sales.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 01:25 AM
 
FYI, there is a decent amount of margin in the Xbox 360 HD-DVD player. They could easily drop the price to $175 without blinking an eye, or maybe even to $150 if they really needed down to crunch time
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 01:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dr Reducto View Post
FYI, there is a decent amount of margin in the Xbox 360 HD-DVD player. They could easily drop the price to $175 without blinking an eye, or maybe even to $150 if they really needed down to crunch time
How do you know?

FWIW, it's CAD$200 here in Canada (with the remote and King Kong HD DVD), which is about US$175. They're also adding Lite-on as a supplier for the drive in 2007. Right now Toshiba makes all the drives for Microsoft. Once manufacturing gets going, I suspect the cost will drop, such that by 2007 H2 we may see a price drop on the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on drive. However, I don't expect to see a price drop on it in the next 6 months.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 01:10 PM
 
Ok here is a question. About 2-3 years ago remember 3M or BASF mentioned they invented a new coating to be used on future DVD's/CD that make it virtually scratch proof. Later I heard Blue-ray moved to caddy-less because they were going to use this new coating as they had to because the smaller bits on blu-ray disks means they are more prone to not playing when scratched.

So the question is if blu-ray disks do in-fact use this coating?

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Dec 4, 2006, 02:34 PM
 
Will Blu-ray discs require a cartridge?

No, the development of new low cost hard-coating technologies has made the cartridge obsolete. Blu-ray will instead rely on hard-coating for protection, which when applied will make the discs even more resistant to scratches and fingerprints than today's DVDs, while still preserving the same look and feel. Blu-ray also adopts a new error correction system which is more robust and efficient than the one used for DVDs.


Blu-ray.com - Blu-ray FAQ

P.S. It is a different hard coating tech for each different company.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker View Post
P.S. It is a different hard coating tech for each different company.
It still doesn't answer if they are using the same old coating as DVD's or that new super strong one.

This is the one I was talking about:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6583

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Dec 4, 2006, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
It still doesn't answer if they are using the same old coating as DVD's or that new super strong one.

This is the one I was talking about:
Super-tough coating for cellphones and discs - 30 October 2004 - New Scientist
Blu-ray is supposed to be using a harder coating that DVD, cuz it needs it. However, it's a different coating tech for each company.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 02:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker View Post
Blu-ray is supposed to be using a harder coating that DVD, cuz it needs it.
It is the "supposed to" part I am trying to find a definitive answer on

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Dec 4, 2006, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
It is the "supposed to" part I am trying to find a definitive answer on
The answer is you'll have to ask the manufacturers about their proprietary practices. In any case, every article I've read to date says they use it, and I've not come across any that said the contrary.

Either way, it's irrelevant. You should still protect your discs, because it's still quite possible to scratch them. In fact, one guy in the disc repair business says that if you do scratch a Blu-ray disc, they may be much harder to fix, because of the special coating.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 05:26 PM
 
I hear some of the HD-DVD people are a little upset that there wasn't enough space on the King Kong disk to get the Dolby TrueHD.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker View Post
Either way, it's irrelevant. You should still protect your discs, because it's still quite possible to scratch them. In fact, one guy in the disc repair business says that if you do scratch a Blu-ray disc, they may be much harder to fix, because of the special coating.
Oh I do take care of them I just remember CNET trying some disks and they took an SOS pad to it and turned it into a milky looking surface but the damn disk still worked which was awesome.

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Dec 4, 2006, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
I hear some of the HD-DVD people are a little upset that there wasn't enough space on the King Kong disk to get the Dolby TrueHD.
So less than a year out the door and the 25 Gigs is already not enough for a Movie?! And don't say nobody needs Dolby TrueHD as obviously some do and 3 years from now TONS will.

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Dec 4, 2006, 05:43 PM
 
I'm still on the fence... for a little while I'm cheering for HD-DVD and at other times, Blu-Ray seems to be the cooler of the formats...

I guess I'm just not going to buy until there is a clear winner.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 06:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
So less than a year out the door and the 25 Gigs is already not enough for a Movie?! And don't say nobody needs Dolby TrueHD as obviously some do and 3 years from now TONS will.
Yep, King Kong is one of the outlier movies where adding TrueHD is pushing it on HD DVD, considering it's over 3 hours long, and is reference quality video. It could be done though, at least with 16-bit/48 KHz TrueHD, since the average bitrate is only about 1.4 Mbps. It's a problem with 24-bit/48 KHz TrueHD, but 24-bit TrueHD is not necessary.

On the other hand, pretty much every single HD DVD comes with Dolby Digital Plus. Many Blu-ray discs come with only Dolby Digital, since Dolby Digital Plus support is a minimum requirement on HD DVD, but only Dolby Digital is needed for Blu-ray.

Furthermore Dolby Digital Plus is a mixed implementation on Blu-ray.

On HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus is pure Dolby Digital Plus. 1.5 Mbps DD+ on HD DVD is 1.5 Mbps DD+. This is possible because all HD DVD players must support DD+.

On Blu-ray, Dolby Digital Plus is a combination of DD+ and DD. 1.7 Mbps DD+ on Blu-ray is 640 Kbps Dolby Digital, with 1024 Kbps DD+ extensions. This is a requirement, since not all Blu-ray players have to support DD+.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
So less than a year out the door and the 25 Gigs is already not enough for a Movie?! And don't say nobody needs Dolby TrueHD as obviously some do and 3 years from now TONS will.
I think most people will argue that King Kong is unique film (over 3 hours)

That being said, I was rather upset to find DVDs back in the day without Dolby Digital.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
I think most people will argue that King Kong is unique film (over 3 hours)

That being said, I was rather upset to find DVDs back in the day without Dolby Digital.
Well same goes for lord of the Rings and such. "HD-DVD no good for epic films" is a bummer and for me the extra space has always been about fitting more TV episodes on fewer disks for me.

I'd rather have 2 disks per season than 4.

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Dec 4, 2006, 06:28 PM
 
I like HD-DVD because the copy protection isn't as anal.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
I think most people will argue that King Kong is unique film (over 3 hours)

That being said, I was rather upset to find DVDs back in the day without Dolby Digital.
Do you mean discs missing Dolby Digital 5.1, vs. Dolby Digital 2.0? Or are you talking about Dolby Pro Logic encoded in PCM? Cuz that actually uses up more space than Dolby Digital 5.1. DD 5.1 on DVD is only 384-448 Kbps. PCM Dolby Pro Logic is 1.5 Mbps.

Interestingly, Dolby TrueHD with 16-bit/48 KHz sound is about the same bitrate as PCM Dolby Pro Logic and full bitrate DTS. (Most DVDs use half-bitrate DTS though.)
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 06:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Well same goes for lord of the Rings and such. "HD-DVD no good for epic films" is a bummer and for me the extra space has always been about fitting more TV episodes on fewer disks for me.

I'd rather have 2 disks per season than 4.
As long as 99% of the films fit on one disc, I could really care less... but having to shave off the higher quality audio does make me question HD-DVD a little (very little... but it's there). I can sacrifice one film (also, they could come out with King Kong on a single HD-DVD with the higher end quality if they removed some of the extras and moved them on to a second HD-DVD.

I was looking at 16 blocks and noticed that HD-DVD was more expensive... what's the deal? Is that the norm or are the HD-DVDs usually less expensive?

HD-DVD - $27.95
Blu-Ray - $23.95

I would hate to be a consumer these days. It was SIMPLE when looking at Divx vs. DVD.
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 06:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
I was looking at 16 blocks and noticed that HD-DVD was more expensive... what's the deal? Is that the norm or are the HD-DVDs usually less expensive?

HD-DVD - $27.95
Blu-Ray - $23.95
Cuz it's one of those lame combo DVD/HD DVD discs.

I actually like the idea of a combo disc, BUT ONLY IF IT'S THE SAME PRICE. I don't want to pay $4-7 more for a combo disc.

Usually, HD DVD and Blu-ray discs are similarly priced. (It used to be that Blu-ray was more expensive, at least around here, but nowadays the prices are mostly similar, excluding the combo discs.)
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker View Post
Do you mean discs missing Dolby Digital 5.1, vs. Dolby Digital 2.0? Or are you talking about Dolby Pro Logic encoded in PCM? Cuz that actually uses up more space than Dolby Digital 5.1. DD 5.1 on DVD is only 384-448 Kbps. PCM Dolby Pro Logic is 1.5 Mbps.

Interestingly, Dolby TrueHD with 16-bit/48 KHz sound is about the same bitrate as PCM Dolby Pro Logic and full bitrate DTS. (Most DVDs use half-bitrate DTS though.)
I was talking about Dolby Digital 5.1, vs. Dolby Digital 2.0...

I purchased some of the original DVDs only to find that they updated them years later with a nice DD 5.1 soundtrack. Rather upsetting...
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker View Post
Cuz it's one of those lame combo DVD/HD DVD discs.

I actually like the idea of a combo disc, BUT ONLY IF IT'S THE SAME PRICE. I don't want to pay $4-7 more for a combo disc.

Usually, HD DVD and Blu-ray discs are similarly priced. (It used to be that Blu-ray was more expensive, at least around here, but nowadays the prices are mostly similar, excluding the combo discs.)
So wait... the HD-DVD package has more "stuff" (footage, extras, etc.)?
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
I was talking about Dolby Digital 5.1, vs. Dolby Digital 2.0...

I purchased some of the original DVDs only to find that they updated them years later with a nice DD 5.1 soundtrack. Rather upsetting...
Ya same here. Same with Anamorphic.

The thing with those HD-DVD hybrids is that some titles are ONLY coming out like that which is retarded as it costs more.

If I buy I HD-DVD disk I do so because I have a player and want to watch it in high def. I am not paying another $10 for the cost of the DVD itself (usually even less on its own on clearance) just for the kids DVD player or my friend who wants to borrow it. That is what the video store is for.

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Dec 4, 2006, 06:52 PM
 
Since we are talking extra's...cast your vote.

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...xtra-features/

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Dec 4, 2006, 08:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
So wait... the HD-DVD package has more "stuff" (footage, extras, etc.)?
Not usually. It's a normal HD DVD on one side, and a normal DVD on the other side with the same movie.
( Last edited by Eug Wanker; Dec 4, 2006 at 09:02 PM. )
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 09:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker View Post
How do you know?

FWIW, it's CAD$200 here in Canada (with the remote and King Kong HD DVD), which is about US$175. They're also adding Lite-on as a supplier for the drive in 2007. Right now Toshiba makes all the drives for Microsoft. Once manufacturing gets going, I suspect the cost will drop, such that by 2007 H2 we may see a price drop on the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on drive. However, I don't expect to see a price drop on it in the next 6 months.
I work a crappy retail job, and the price to the retailer is around $160-165, even though it's sold for 200, so there is most likely margin throughout the chain that could be eaten by Microsoft if they really needed to cut prices for a price war
     
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Dec 4, 2006, 09:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dr Reducto View Post
I work a crappy retail job, and the price to the retailer is around $160-165, even though it's sold for 200, so there is most likely margin throughout the chain that could be eaten by Microsoft if they really needed to cut prices for a price war
Microsoft doesn't need to cut prices any time soon on the HD DVD drive. The price has already hit that magic $199 price point. The time MS can cut prices (on either the 360 or the HD DVD or both), is when Sony decreases the price of the PS3, and that won't happen before 2007 H2.

By that time the cost to MS will be less anyway. Drives will be cheaper, as will other components.
     
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Dec 5, 2006, 02:28 PM
 
Weird. Check out these 2 release dates, blu-ray seems to be getting more titles in the near future:

HD DVD Disc Release Dates | High Def Digest

Blu-ray Disc Release Dates | High Def Digest

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Dec 5, 2006, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Weird. Check out these 2 release dates, blu-ray seems to be getting more titles in the near future:

HD DVD Disc Release Dates | High Def Digest

Blu-ray Disc Release Dates | High Def Digest
Fox is finally releasing significant numbers.

However, what's missing from the February list is the Warner titles, because Warner hasn't announced them yet.
     
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Dec 5, 2006, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker View Post
Fox is finally releasing significant numbers.

However, what's missing from the February list is the Warner titles, because Warner hasn't announced them yet.
Funny thing is the immediate titles I want like Miami Vice and BSG are universal on HD-DVD. Hopefully things will change though

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