[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Actually, to be picky. They supported DVD-RAM first. Then they supported DVD-R (and disabled DVD-RAM). They they supported DVD+R and DVD-R.

Ya I couldn't remember the exact formats all I remember is they shipped Sony/whatever drives in the pro G5 towers and made a custom ROM that disabled certain formats that it normally supports.

[Eug]

Yeah, when they supported DVD-RAM, DVD-R wasn't available yet.

The interesting thing is that although they killed DVD-RAM in their later drives, Apple has never removed support for DVD-RAM in the OS (obviously). If you have a 3rd party DVD-RAM drive (or else a flashed Apple drive), DVD-RAM works great in OS X. It's like a 4+ GB removable hard drive. You can use HFS+ or FAT32 or whatever.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by Eug 

That doesn't really make sense as their software already supports HD DVD.

iTunes on windows supports import of WMA but that does not mean they are a proponent of the format. Again, you are referring to FCP Studio which is not a consumer product. As soon as any Joe Blow with a mac and a Blu-ray or HD-DVD burner can author and burn either Blu-ray or HD-DVD format, then you will see momentum behind that format. Hacks like HD-DVD on DVD are not a significant factor in the overall market.

To put it as simply as possible. Pro market = small Consumer market = big. Whichever format the consumers choose for their home media projects will be the winner.

Apple came out publicly in support of Blu-Ray when they joined the board.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

iTunes on windows supports import of WMA but that does not mean they are a proponent of the format.

Not the same thing at all. iTunes cannot play back WMA. It can convert them to AAC. Apple software can make HD DVD, and play those discs natively.

Again, you are referring to FCP Studio which is not a consumer product.

DVD Player.app

Hacks like HD-DVD on DVD are not a significant factor in the overall market.

It's not a hack. As we've already discussed, it's an official HD DVD format. It exists because the DVD Forum put it in the spec, at the request of Warner Bros and others.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Apple does not support HD-DVD burning at all or HD-DVD authoring in iLife for consumers so what is your point. I don't think they will go blu-ray only in the pro apps but it seems likely that they will go for blu-ray for consumers. There are no HD-DVD burners even from third-parties for the mac. There are blu-ray burners from third-parties and Toast Titanium 8 provides OS integration of Blu-ray into OS X.

Apple doesn't support Bluray either currently, so I'm really not sure what your point is. I could write my own HD-DVD drive kernel extension tomorrow and it wouldn't translate into HD-DVD support from Apple.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

I am no expert on this but I believe that you are oversimplifying things. Authoring an HD-DVD structure is one thing while burning is another matter.

I don't think you get it. HD-DVD and DVD are the same format. They were both done by the same group. HD-DVD is basically an extension to the original DVD format, so there are no issues with burning HD-DVD's to DVD media.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Apple is a member of the DVD forum but they are not a supporting member of the HD-DVD standard. Look it up on google. MSFT is there but Apple is not.

The DVD Forum IS the HD-DVD standard group. Not to mention by Apple's own press release they are a supporting member of HD-DVD. Are you going to argue with Apple on that?

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Apple has never said they prefer Blu-ray? Really? Why would they go through the trouble of becoming part of the board and not becoming part of the group directly responsible for HD-DVD. As you pointed out, the DVD-forum is a large organization with a number of projects. Apple has not come out publicly in support for the HD-DVD standard. They have however, said they will support both in their pro level apps. There is a difference between providing software support and coming out in "support" for a format.

Trouble? I'm guessing they were invited on.

They never said they wouldn't support both in their pro level apps. Heck, they haven't even said they will support Bluray in their pro level apps.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Blu-ray Disc Association Welcomes Apple to Its Board of Directors

You don't get it. Apple has been a member of the HD-DVD group for a long time, because it's the same group that did DVD. That's why there is no press release for Apple joining the HD-DVD group. They have been a member for a long, long time.

Here again is the listing of members of the group doing HD-DVD. Note that Apple is on the list:
Member List

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I don't think you get it. HD-DVD and DVD are the same format. They were both done by the same group. HD-DVD is basically an extension to the original DVD format, so there are no issues with burning HD-DVD's to DVD media.

*Sigh*. They are not the same format. Take a look at the data structures and directory structures not to mention that DVD only supports Mpeg2 while HD-DVD supports three and most of the initial content was VC-1 (MSFT's format). I'm a software developer and I'm guessing that you are not. You are confusing medium with file formats and structures.

Originally Posted by goMac 

The DVD Forum IS the HD-DVD standard group. Not to mention by Apple's own press release they are a supporting member of HD-DVD. Are you going to argue with Apple on that?

The DVD forum was setup to develop the DVD format. Apple joined the group before the HD-DVD project but the HD-DVD project is a subset of the DVD forum.

Originally Posted by goMac 

You don't get it. Apple has been a member of the HD-DVD group for a long time, because it's the same group that did DVD. That's why there is no press release for Apple joining the HD-DVD group. They have been a member for a long, long time.

I get it quite well thank you but you do not seem to understand that Apple never became an active member of the HD-DVD group which is a subcommittee of the DVD forum.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Here again is the listing of members of the group doing HD-DVD. Note that Apple is on the list:
Member List

Yeah, and I see the DVD logo in the corner as well as a sub-menu for HD-DVD. I also can tell you that Apple was a member of the forum and listed on that page long before HD-DVD was conceived.

Check this page out:
http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/about/member.html

It lists the members of the HD-DVD promotion group which is chaired by Toshiba. You will note that Microsoft is present on that list but Apple is notably absent.

You can ignore that page if you wish, that HD-DVD is a subgroup if the older DVD forum, or that the list for the DVD forum member page is a lot longer than the HD-DVD group page. Go ahead and declare victory if you wish.

You know, I'm almost tempted to post that picture of the special olympics kid but I would almost feel I would be insulting him to equate some of you with him.

Reading comprehension is fundamental.

[hmurchison2001]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

*Sigh*. They are not the same format. Take a look at the data structures and directory structures not to mention that DVD only supports Mpeg2 while HD-DVD supports three and most of the initial content was VC-1 (MSFT's format). I'm a software developer and I'm guessing that you are not. You are confusing medium with file formats and structures.
The DVD forum was setup to develop the DVD format. Apple joined the group before the HD-DVD project but the HD-DVD project is a subset of the DVD forum.
I get it quite well thank you but you do not seem to understand that Apple never became an active member of the HD-DVD group which is a subcommittee of the DVD forum.
Yeah, and I see the DVD logo in the corner as well as a sub-menu for HD-DVD. I also can tell you that Apple was a member of the forum and listed on that page long before HD-DVD was conceived.
Check this page out:
http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/about/member.html
It lists the members of the HD-DVD promotion group which is chaired by Toshiba. You will note that Microsoft is present on that list but Apple is notably absent.
You can ignore that page if you wish, that HD-DVD is a subgroup if the older DVD forum, or that the list for the DVD forum member page is a lot longer than the HD-DVD group page. Go ahead and declare victory if you wish.
You know, I'm almost tempted to post that picture of the special olympics kid but I would almost feel I would be insulting him to equate some of you with him.
Reading comprehension is fundamental.

He is correct in equating the disc structure with that of DVD. Both use two .6mm subtrates and a similar 6x numerical aperture which is why existing DVD-9 lines can be upgraded to press HD DVD.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/apr/17hd.html

Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Apple is basically clarifying here. "Yes we joined the BoD for Blu-ray but we're still in the DVD forum and committed to both formats.

http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/01...time/index.php

Case in point: Both sides in the ongoing DVD format war—Blu-ray and HD DVD—have adopted QuickTime and H.264. So while Apple may hold a seat on the Blu-Ray Disc Association’s Board of Directors, it sees the format fight as a win-win situation for its technology.

“We are part of both of those technologies and are happy, regardless of the outcome, that H.264 is part of the overall equation,” Casanova said.

That's about as neutral of a statement as they come.

Apple doesn't have to join the Promotions Group. They have all the access they need by being in the DVD Forum.

I'm personally glad Apple is taking the high road and supporting both platforms. They make authoring tools and if there's a substantial market for both then why limit yourself?

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

He is correct in equating the disc structure with that of DVD. Both use two .6mm subtrates and a similar 6x numerical aperture which is why existing DVD-9 lines can be upgraded to press HD DVD.

Apple Continues to Lead the Industry in the Adoption of HD Video at NAB



Apple is basically clarifying here. "Yes we joined the BoD for Blu-ray but we're still in the DVD forum and committed to both formats.

Macworld: News: As QuickTime hits milestone, Apple looks ahead



That's about as neutral of a statement as they come.

Apple doesn't have to join the Promotions Group. They have all the access they need by being in the DVD Forum.

I'm personally glad Apple is taking the high road and supporting both platforms. They make authoring tools and if there's a substantial market for both then why limit yourself?

Apple is not part of the promotional group. Apple has said they will support whatever format(s) that consumers want but the fact remain that they are not part of the HD-DVD group.

I was not talking about the structure of the layers. I was referring to the directory and file structures. They are different.

I give up, you "fill in the blanks" win but you are still "fill in the blanks". I'm tired of arguing. It is pointless.

HD-DVD Promotion Members:
Member List - HD DVD Promotion Group

Look at this link:
Steering Committee Companies

*Gasp*
Sony is on the list. Does that mean they support HD-DVD?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Apple is not part of the promotional group. Apple has said they will support whatever format(s) that consumers want but the fact remain that they are not part of the HD-DVD group.

So please explain why Apple has said in press releases that they are supporting HD-DVD. And why they're a member of the group.

(If they aren't, please find the web page of the "HD-DVD group" that shows who the members are.)

Originally Posted by aristotles 

I was not talking about the structure of the layers. I was referring to the directory and file structures. They are different.

Do you realize how many formats are used on DVD that don't follow the same file structure as a DVD? This is a dumb point, it doesn't make HD-DVD on DVD any less of a format.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

I give up, you "fill in the blanks" win but you are still "fill in the blanks". I'm tired of arguing. It is pointless.

I'm not filling in the blanks. You're making blanks that don't exist.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

HD-DVD Promotion Members:
Member List - HD DVD Promotion Group

Guess who's not in the Bluray Promotional group? I'll give you a hint. The company's name starts with an A, and sounds like "Snapple".

HDTV UK: Companies to form Blu-ray promotion group

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Look at this link:
Steering Committee Companies

*Gasp*
Sony is on the list. Does that mean they support HD-DVD?

Really? I certainly didn't notice and point that out earlier.

Regardless, you're looking for a press release on Apple joining the HD-DVD group. It doesn't exist, because Apple is already a member. Apple has said point blank they are supporting HD-DVD and you are ignoring it. I'm not the only person to notice this.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Check this page out:
http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/about/member.html

It lists the members of the HD-DVD promotion group which is chaired by Toshiba. You will note that Microsoft is present on that list but Apple is notably absent.

The HD-DVD Promotion Group is not the same thing as the official group doing HD-DVD.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

You can ignore that page if you wish, that HD-DVD is a subgroup if the older DVD forum, or that the list for the DVD forum member page is a lot longer than the HD-DVD group page. Go ahead and declare victory if you wish.

No, it's not a different group. You will note Apple is not a member of the Bluray Promotion Group either. Does that mean Apple doesn't plan on supporting Bluray?

Originally Posted by aristotles 

You know, I'm almost tempted to post that picture of the special olympics kid but I would almost feel I would be insulting him to equate some of you with him.

I wouldn't be worried about people equating the picture with me.

[jokell82]

And now, the reason I will be buying an HD-DVD player later this year and not a Blu-Ray player:
Heroes Breaks Ground With HD-DVD Release

[aristotles]

goMac, how old are you? You seem to have difficulty with reading comprehension? It seems like I'm either talking to a grade school pupil or someone with a learning disability.

Promotion is defined as:

• activity that supports or provides active encouragement for the furtherance of a cause, venture, or aim : disease prevention and health promotion.
• the publicization of a product, organization, or venture so as to increase sales or public awareness.
• a publicity campaign for a particular product, organization, or venture : the paper is reaping the rewards of a series of promotions.

Support in reference to computing (software) is defined as:

3 Computing (of a computer or operating system) allow the use or operation of (a program, language, or device) : the new versions do not support the graphical user interface standard.

Apple is providing support for the HD-DVD standard in their Final Copy Studio Pro product which is not a consumer product.

They are not in the active promotion of the HD-DVD format despite the technical support of the format in one of their content creation products.

What you do not seem to be understanding is that while the HD-DVD standard was developed by the DVD forum, not all members of the DVD forum were involved in the creation of the format or actively promoting the format. Sony is a steering committee member and obviously a DVD forum member as well. Despite all, of this they are not a promoter of the HD-DVD format.

As I have already pointed out, Apple is also a member of the DVD forum but they are not a member of any committees involving HD-DVD or the HD-DVD Promotion Group either as a board member, General member or associate member.

Apple is however, a member of the Blu-ray promotion group which is known as The Blu-ray Disc Association and is on the Board of directors.

Here is their homepage. Note the prominent Apple logo?

Even an immigrant from a non-English country should have no problem understanding the difference between support and promotion now. The former is done to serve customer needs while the latter to express what their preferred (favourite) format is. Apple is interested in furthering the Blu-ray format and its popularity.

Are we clear now? Are we all on the same page? I can understand if you prefer the HD-DVD format but facts are facts. Apple is on the Blu-ray board and prefers Blu-ray over HD-DVD even though they will support both formats in their software if their customers require it.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

And now, the reason I will be buying an HD-DVD player later this year and not a Blu-Ray player:
Heroes Breaks Ground With HD-DVD Release

Other than editorial comments, I don't see any mention that it will not be released on blu-ray.

*edit*
It's also inaccurate as the Sopranos was release on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD.