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goMac · Jul 30, 2007, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by starman

When Dolby Digital was first released on laserdisc around 1994, it was a mixed blessing. We finally had 6-channel audio, but it was lossy. 12 years later we have the capacity for uncompressed audio and you think that it's "enough"? No, it's not. People bickered for YEARS about DD vs. DTS, and the fact is that neither were transparent to the original. How much can Joe 6-Pack tell? Probably none. But HD isn't for J6P. You can sit there and spin it any way you want, but HD-DVD LOSES in that respect.

Yes, but in a few months around Christmas time, the format war is going to shift back to Joe Six Pack consumer, and as you said, Joe Six Pack is not going to care about uncompressed audio. A prosumer might... but not your average consumer with the $1000 bargain plasma and $200 bargain 5.1 sound system.

Originally Posted by starman

As for the comment you heard, I don't see why Apple would want one format or the other to go away just yet. Money is to be made by supporting both.

Look, frequently when Apple makes a decision, Steve's RDF usually kicks into high gear and the engineers are usually brought into line with the new policy. That's not to say the engineers are mindless automatons, they're very smart people. But from what I've seen, Apple likes to keep people on the same page for obvious reasons.

I don't doubt Apple will end up supporting both formats, whether happily or grudgingly. If you look back, I've said before that I think Apple will be going the combo player route. I mean, with new iMacs supposedly coming in a week, maybe they'll add a Bluray player and I'll look silly. But the current lack of any Bluray player on any Mac is telling. At this rate, Apple will be one of the last companies with support for Bluray.

Really, I haven't been trying to say Apple is completely anti-Bluray. My point is really that buying Bluray thinking that it's Apple's favorite format is a bad reason to be buying Bluray.

aristotles · Jul 30, 2007, 03:53 PM

Not this crap again? I thought we settled this. Apple is a member of the Blu-ray disc association which is the blu-ray analogue to the HD DVD promotion group.
See the Apple logo here?
Blu-ray Disc Association | Experience Blu
Blu-ray Disc Association

Do you see the Apple anywhere on this page? No.
Member List - HD DVD Promotion Group

Apple belongs to the DVD-Forum and just because HD DVD came out of the DVD Forum, fanboys assume that Apple is an active supporter of HD DVD. Need I point out that Sony is also a member of the DVD Forum? Does that mean they support HD DVD too?

Not only is Apple a member of the Blu-ray group but they are a board member.
Supporting Companies
Also, the video testimony from the execs of various companies in the association are said to best viewed in Quicktime.
What executives say

Other than continuing membership in the DVD Forum (which is a a must for the iLife Apple DVD burning features), Apple does support limited HD DVD authoring in Final Cut studio. But folks, that is a pro package and there are very few software packages out there that can author Blu-ray movie content at this moment. HD DVD is a quick and dirty hack over top of DVD technology which is why it was fairly easy for Apple to implement in FCP Studio.

I would hardly call having support in a Pro app a ringing endorsement when you are already a board member for the competing format's promotional and advertising organization.

jokell82 · Jul 30, 2007, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by starman

That's not the point. In this day and age I don't think it's right to accept anything less than uncompressed audio. People have wanted it for YEARS.

Well people are going to be wanting for even longer. Movies made today (and for at least the past 5 years, probably a bit longer than that though) are recorded in at LEAST 24bit 48khz, if not better. So any of these uncompressed tracks technically may be uncompressed audio, but they're still downsampled from the source.

I wonder if either format allows for 24bit audio in their specs...

goMac · Jul 30, 2007, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Not this crap again? I thought we settled this. Apple is a member of the Blu-ray disc association which is the blu-ray analogue to the HD DVD promotion group.

If you'd like to go back to what Apple has officially said, they've officially said they support both formats.

There, debate solved.

jokell82 · Jul 30, 2007, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Not this crap again? I thought we settled this. Apple is a member of the Blu-ray disc association which is the blu-ray analogue to the HD DVD promotion group.
See the Apple logo here?
Blu-ray Disc Association | Experience Blu
Blu-ray Disc Association

Do you see the Apple anywhere on this page? No.
Member List - HD DVD Promotion Group

Apple belongs to the DVD-Forum and just because HD DVD came out of the DVD Forum, fanboys assume that Apple is an active supporter of HD DVD. Need I point out that Sony is also a member of the DVD Forum? Does that mean they support HD DVD too?

Not only is Apple a member of the Blu-ray group but they are a board member.
Supporting Companies
Also, the video testimony from the execs of various companies in the association are said to best viewed in Quicktime.
What executives say

Other than continuing membership in the DVD Forum (which is a a must for the iLife Apple DVD burning features), Apple does support limited HD DVD authoring in Final Cut studio. But folks, that is a pro package and there are very few software packages out there that can author Blu-ray movie content at this moment. HD DVD is a quick and dirty hack over top of DVD technology which is why it was fairly easy for Apple to implement in FCP Studio.

I would hardly call having support in a Pro app a ringing endorsement when you are already a board member for the competing format's promotional and advertising organization.

There was also that press release that, you know, specified that Apple was supporting BOTH formats. But you can ignore that if you want...

starman · Jul 30, 2007, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Well people are going to be wanting for even longer. Movies made today (and for at least the past 5 years, probably a bit longer than that though) are recorded in at LEAST 24bit 48khz, if not better. So any of these uncompressed tracks technically may be uncompressed audio, but they're still downsampled from the source.

I wonder if either format allows for 24bit audio in their specs...

Dude, seriously, do some research...

Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003) DVD Review
2.35:1 Widescreen High-Def 1080p; 5.1 Uncompressed 48 kHz/24-bit (English), Dolby Digital 5.1 (English, Spanish, French); Subtitles: English SDH, French, Spanish
"Scoundrels at Sea" on-screen pirates facts, Movie Showcase; 3 audio commentaries, "An Epic at Sea" documentary, 19 deleted/alternate scenes, "Moonlight" scene progression, "Fly on the Set" pieces, "Below Deck", "Diary of a Ship", "Diary of a Pirate", "Producer Jerry Bruckheimer's Diary", gallery, bloopers

---

Oh, and yeah...

Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD demystified - Engadget HD

icruise · Jul 30, 2007, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Not this crap again?

My sentiments exactly, although perhaps not in the way you meant it. We simply have NO idea what Apple's official stance is going to be, so let it be for now.

jokell82 · Jul 30, 2007, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Dude, seriously, do some research...

Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003) DVD Review
2.35:1 Widescreen High-Def 1080p; 5.1 Uncompressed 48 kHz/24-bit (English), Dolby Digital 5.1 (English, Spanish, French); Subtitles: English SDH, French, Spanish
"Scoundrels at Sea" on-screen pirates facts, Movie Showcase; 3 audio commentaries, "An Epic at Sea" documentary, 19 deleted/alternate scenes, "Moonlight" scene progression, "Fly on the Set" pieces, "Below Deck", "Diary of a Ship", "Diary of a Pirate", "Producer Jerry Bruckheimer's Diary", gallery, bloopers

---

Oh, and yeah...

Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD demystified - Engadget HD

I was just going off your post earlier as listing an uncompressed track as 16/48. Didn't feel the need to research it since you posted it.

Montezuma58 · Jul 30, 2007, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

The PS2 did not kill DiVX - the entire retarded concept of DiVX killed DiVX. The format was dead before the PS2 was even released.

And I love how you're hoping for new discs to come out that wont play on current hardware. Yay for obsolete machines!!!

Obi hasn't just drank the blue Kool-Aid. He's funneled a two litter of the stuff and topped it off with a couple of blue Kool-Aid keg stands. DIVIX was a couple of years behind DVD, was on the market for about 6 months total, and was only available from 3 or 4 retailers.

goMac · Jul 31, 2007, 02:22 AM

To those that think Universal is going to be going neutral anytime soon:
Universal Studios VP sez HD DVD is 'more affordable' than Blu-ray - Engadget HD

Bluray is getting Lost season 3, which is honestly the first thing I'm honestly interested in on Bluray:
Lost: The Complete Third Season headed to Blu-ray Dec. 11 - Engadget HD

aristotles · Jul 31, 2007, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

There was also that press release that, you know, specified that Apple was supporting BOTH formats. But you can ignore that if you want...

Man, you are not getting it are you? Of course they will support both formats in authoring software but that does not change the fact that they do not participate in the HD DVD promotional group and they are on the Blu-ray Disc association board. They are a board member of one group and not even a member of the other. Both the HD DVD Promotional Group and the Blu-ray Disc Association exist to promote/advertise their respective formats to the media, content providers, consumer electronics firms and media manufacturers.

Apple may provide software support for both formats in the future but given their board membership, I assume that they are hard at work developing hardware and software support for Blu-ray authoring in future macs and releases of iLife.

Is this all clear to you? If not, I cannot be held responsible if you cannot understand plain English due to a learning disability you may have which hinders reading comprehension.

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 31, 2007, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by Montezuma58

Obi hasn't just drank the blue Kool-Aid. He's funneled a two litter of the stuff and topped it off with a couple of blue Kool-Aid keg stands. DIVIX was a couple of years behind DVD, was on the market for about 6 months total, and was only available from 3 or 4 retailers.

Maybe in your side of Kansas where "DIVIX" is sold it was like that but in every store I went to there were DVD and DivX players. It wasn't long after the PS2 sold millions of units that DiVX disappeared. The PS3 is doing exactly the same thing and having the same effect on HD-DVD sales. Blu-ray sales are increasing and leaving HD-DVD behind as more PS3 units are sold. Goodbye HD-DVD, and welcome to the real world, Universal.

goMac · Jul 31, 2007, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Man, you are not getting it are you? Of course they will support both formats in authoring software but that does not change the fact that they do not participate in the HD DVD promotional group and they are on the Blu-ray Disc association board. They are a board member of one group and not even a member of the other. Both the HD DVD Promotional Group and the Blu-ray Disc Association exist to promote/advertise their respective formats to the media, content providers, consumer electronics firms and media manufacturers.

If Apple is a big supporter of Bluray, where are Macs with Bluray? Everyone else has been shipping computers with Bluray. Where is Apple?

goMac · Jul 31, 2007, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

Maybe in your side of Kansas where "DIVIX" is sold it was like that but in every store I went to there were DVD and DivX players. It wasn't long after the PS2 sold millions of units that DiVX disappeared. The PS3 is doing exactly the same thing and having the same effect on HD-DVD sales. Blu-ray sales are increasing and leaving HD-DVD behind as more PS3 units are sold. Goodbye HD-DVD, and welcome to the real world, Universal.

The death of DivX had nothing to do with the PS2. The format imploded on it's own due to it's suckiness.

What stores did you go into? I swear I remember Circuit City being the only store that carried DivX. I never have even seen an actual DivX player myself, much less known anyone who actually bought one.

(also, scroll up for a link on Universal. They apparently think HD-DVD is far from dead. Good luck seeing them on Bluray any time soon.)

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 31, 2007, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

If Apple is a big supporter of Bluray, where are Macs with Bluray? Everyone else has been shipping computers with Bluray. Where is Apple?

Considering they were going through a PPC>Intel switching phase for a year, devoted so much energy to iPhone that Leopard was delayed, and won't have a video player that supports HD until Leopard, did you expect Blu-ray drives to ship with Tiger, especially when HD hasn't gotten off the ground yet? Apple's priorities have been on three other more important things.

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 31, 2007, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

The death of DivX had nothing to do with the PS2. The format imploded on it's own due to it's suckiness.

Same thing will happen to HD-DVD. Why would anyone want a disc format with less capacity and less future proofing? Stupid or what.

Universal will go Blu-ray, like a beggar who lived in the cold for too long.