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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning?

View Poll Results: Which do you have? (Choose only ONE. Includes stand-alones and game consoles.)
Poll Options:
HD DVD 34 votes (17.09%)
Blu-ray 87 votes (43.72%)
Both 14 votes (7.04%)
Neither 70 votes (35.18%)
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll
Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning? (Page 51)
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Aug 20, 2007, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Paramount to Offer Movies in HD DVD - Forbes.com

Paramount and Dreamworks go HD DVD exclusive.
But...but...but...Blu-Ray has DRM which is better for studios, right? Right???


Fantastic news!

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Aug 20, 2007, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
But...but...but...Blu-Ray has DRM which is better for studios, right? Right???
Don't worry. It will all balance out when Universal finally decides to go Bluray.

Yep. Annnyyyy day now....
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Aug 20, 2007, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Don't worry. It will all balance out when Universal finally decides to go Bluray.

Yep. Annnyyyy day now....
You guys fail to see the politics going on here and how the consumer is being hoodwinked.

Sony and its affiliated production companies and friendly studios have no choice but to offer discs in Blu-ray format (because it is Sony's) and also HD-DVD to those who have the latter format's players.

Then there are studios that compete against the above mentioned companies. Universal, Paramount and Dreamworks (famously anti-Disney, see their origins) have chosen HD-DVD because they don't want to side with Sony or Disney. That's the political part. When Blu-ray continues to win, because it will always have more PS3s and Blu-ray players collectively sold than HD-DVD players and more money and power backing it; Universial, Paramount and Dreamworks will accede defeat, drop HD-DVD and offer their library in Blu-ray. That means many who bought HD-DVD will eventually throw their discs away and rebuy the same movies again in Blu-ray format. That's two sales for one movie! That's how cheeky the suits are.

If you think for a moment that that hasn't crossed their minds think again. There are literally scores of movies available on DVD that have been rereleased several times with more extras or longer play time or with "new" interviews or labelled "uncut" or "definitive edition" or "remastered". All could have been done in the first place but were rereleased a little better each time to make the most amount of money. Star Wars and Blade Runner fans in particular were the biggest mugs in this game.
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Aug 20, 2007, 02:22 PM
 
Ah. So now Super Mario is arguing that less titles is better. I remember when the Bluray camp used to argue that it was the number of titles that would make a format successful.

All I know is there are going to be a lot of disappointed PS3 owners when they go to pick up Transformers on Bluray so they can show off their HD setup to their friends...
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Aug 20, 2007, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
But...but...but...Blu-Ray has DRM which is better for studios, right? Right???


Fantastic news!
How is it fantastic? It just splits it even more down the middle.

Don't you people get it? A format war is STUPID. It was stupid 20 years ago, it's stupid now. Not to mention that M$ paid $50million to Paramount and $100million to Dreamworks to make this happen. That's a lot of f'n money to keep a format alive.

Because someone knew that if HD-DVD didn't get SOMETHING this season, it was toast.

And don't forget this little quote:

"Today’s announcement does not include films directed by Steven Spielberg as his films are not exclusive to either format."

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Aug 20, 2007, 02:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Don't you people get it? A format war is STUPID. It was stupid 20 years ago, it's stupid now. Not to mention that M$ paid $50million to Paramount and $100million to Dreamworks to make this happen. That's a lot of f'n money to keep a format alive.
Link? I don't really disbelieve you. I think everyone is being paid money under the table to stick with their respective formats, I'd just like something to back the claim up...
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Aug 20, 2007, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Ah. So now Super Mario is arguing that less titles is better. I remember when the Bluray camp used to argue that it was the number of titles that would make a format successful.

All I know is there are going to be a lot of disappointed PS3 owners when they go to pick up Transformers on Bluray so they can show off their HD setup to their friends...
Haven't read his post since his recent blockination, but it figures that BD fanboys would rationalize it like that.

Originally Posted by starman View Post
How is it fantastic? It just splits it even more down the middle.

Don't you people get it? A format war is STUPID. It was stupid 20 years ago, it's stupid now. Not to mention that M$ paid $50million to Paramount and $100million to Dreamworks to make this happen. That's a lot of f'n money to keep a format alive.

Because someone knew that if HD-DVD didn't get SOMETHING this season, it was toast.

And don't forget this little quote:

"Today’s announcement does not include films directed by Steven Spielberg as his films are not exclusive to either format."
I'd like to see something that shows Microsoft paid anyone anything. Because according to the people involved no money changed hands.

And in reality, the format war has driven prices WAY down and helped consumers in that regard. You think Sony would have a $499 Blu-Ray player if there was no competition? Or Toshiba with a $299 player? I think not.

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Aug 20, 2007, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Haven't read his post since his recent blockination, but it figures that BD fanboys would rationalize it like that.
He was saying that the only reason Paramount switched was because they want people to buy their movies twice, once on HD-DVD, and then again on Bluray when the holy fires come and burn HD-DVD from this world and blablabla... Really you didn't miss much, and Starman's explanation is more plausible.

Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
I'd like to see something that shows Microsoft paid anyone anything. Because according to the people involved no money changed hands.
This is an interesting inconsistency in the arguments from Bluray supporters. Super Mario is arguing that Sony's money makes Bluray the better format because Sony can afford to bribe studios. Yet Starman is arguing that Microsoft bribing studios is a bad thing.
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Aug 20, 2007, 02:57 PM
 
I think the lesson to be learned there is ignore Super Mario.
     
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Aug 20, 2007, 03:00 PM
 

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Aug 20, 2007, 03:00 PM
 
Managed Copy will apparently be finalized by the end of 2007:
HD DVD, Blu-ray "Managed Copy" coming later this year

A few interesting facts:
• All HD-DVD's released from day 1 will support managed copy, only new Bluray discs will support managed copy.
• All HD-DVD's will support managed copy, not all Bluray discs will support managed copy.
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Aug 20, 2007, 03:03 PM
 
Again, I'd believe it. But that blog sounds like it's written by Super Mario is his spare time. And honestly, $150 million isn't very much money. For Microsoft, it's pocket change.
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Aug 20, 2007, 03:03 PM
 
Deadline Hollywood is a Blu-Ray propaganda website.

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Aug 20, 2007, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Deadline Hollywood is a Blu-Ray propaganda website.
Where do you see that?

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Aug 20, 2007, 03:23 PM
 
I agree that there are a lot of politics going on and that a format war is bad for everyone... but I fail to see how the HD DVD camp is any more guilty then the Blu-ray camp at politicking or trying to take advantage of the customer.
( Last edited by ort888; Aug 20, 2007 at 04:08 PM. )

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Aug 20, 2007, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Deadline Hollywood is a Blu-Ray propaganda website.
Propaganda website? It's L.A. Weekly's Nikke Finke. And Google shows me only 5 hits for "Blu-ray" on the entire domain, including the Paramount announcement and another post which refers to Blu-ray as "Sony's next tech debacle." But whatever you say.

Also, since the site broke the story on Sunday night, a half day before anyone else, I'd say it has some credibility.
     
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Aug 20, 2007, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I agree that there are a lot of politics going on and that a format is bad... but I fail to see how the HD DVD camp is any more guilty then the Blu-ray camp at politicking or trying to take advantage of the customer.


Disney was originally going to go neutral, and rumor was Pixar was pro-HDDVD. Rumor also was that Steve Jobs was personally pushing for Disney to be neutral after Bluray's poor launch.

Anyone who thinks that Sony didn't pay off Disney to be Bluray exclusive is fooling themselves.

This is what HD-DVD should have been doing from the beginning. Throw money at studios and marketing, just as the Bluray camp has been doing.
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Aug 20, 2007, 03:55 PM
 
I'm wondering if this was done intentionally to prolong the war and wedge downloadable movies into the mix.

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Aug 20, 2007, 04:08 PM
 
Hmm... maybe they're going with HD because Sony has demonstrated that they're the most oppressive control-freak pricks on the planet when it comes to media. Perhaps the the fear of being included on a class action lawsuit if they attempted another root-kit style protection scheme scared them just enough to CHOOSE a competing format. But nah, it's more likely that they were bribed into going with the dying format.

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Aug 20, 2007, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Where do you see that?
Sorry, confused it with another website. Carry on.

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Aug 20, 2007, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Hmm... maybe they're going with HD because Sony has demonstrated that they're the most oppressive control-freak pricks on the planet when it comes to media. ... But nah, it's more likely that they were bribed into going with the dying format.
Right, because Viacom's always been an outspoken critic of media conglomerates who lock down their intellectual property.... Much better theory than the credible report that the studio that's been sucking wind for 5+ years -- and still would be if it had not bought the production pipeline of Dreamworks -- got a giant payoff (a payoff that should be useful next year when Spielberg and Geffen bail at the first opportunity).
     
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Aug 20, 2007, 05:03 PM
 
Could it also be the cost savings of only having to support the one (cheaper) format? Sure that doesn't weigh into the decision at all?

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Aug 20, 2007, 05:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Could it also be the cost savings of only having to support the one (cheaper) format? Sure that doesn't weigh into the decision at all?
Maybe it does, but I'm sure once you've paid for the HD transfer and compression, the marginal costs associated with an additional format are negligible (and that the BDA would probably eat them if asked), not to mention that -- assuming the 2:1 sales gap is consistent across all titles -- you're going to have to recoup the costs of the transfer and compression by selling 1/3 as many discs.
     
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Aug 20, 2007, 05:50 PM
 
It's looking more and more like we are all going to need dual-format players.

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Aug 20, 2007, 05:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
It's looking more and more like we are all going to need dual-format players.
Yep, that's where I thought this would all. That's why I called the cheap Samsung dual player the end of the format war (ok, maybe we still have a bit to go, but an affordable dual format player certainly makes things cleaner...)

This idea of total Bluray dominance isn't going to fly I don't think. But after the initial moaning from the fanboys, I think dual format players will be a perfectly adequate solution, and in a few years no one will remember this format war.
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Aug 20, 2007, 06:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by *TL View Post
Right, because Viacom's always been an outspoken critic of media conglomerates who lock down their intellectual property.... Much better theory than the credible report that the studio that's been sucking wind for 5+ years -- and still would be if it had not bought the production pipeline of Dreamworks -- got a giant payoff (a payoff that should be useful next year when Spielberg and Geffen bail at the first opportunity).
Look, dude, I don't really care about the internal shucking and jiving going on at these hellholes. I should have made that clear. Your speculation on the biz does nothing to negate the fact that Sony has been, without a doubt, one of the worst DRM offenders for the last 20 years.

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Aug 20, 2007, 08:08 PM
 
Gizmodo has noted that, at best, the formats are now even in studio support. 10 studios vs 10 studios. If you take into account the smaller studios, HD-DVD is winning in studio support now 12 vs. 10. If you factor out the inactive studios from Bluray, HD-DVD is winning 12 vs. 8.

State of High Definition: Who's Winning the Studio Support War? - Gizmodo
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Aug 20, 2007, 10:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Gizmodo has noted that, at best, the formats are now even in studio support. 10 studios vs 10 studios. If you take into account the smaller studios, HD-DVD is winning in studio support now 12 vs. 10. If you factor out the inactive studios from Bluray, HD-DVD is winning 12 vs. 8.

State of High Definition: Who's Winning the Studio Support War? - Gizmodo
Fox just announced a slew of new BD releases, so I'm not sure we can count them as inactive anymore...

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Aug 20, 2007, 10:32 PM
 
Saw this posted on Engadget, Sony's response to today's news: http://www.users.qwest.net/~ktodd4/s...ystatement.mp3


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Aug 20, 2007, 10:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Saw this posted on Engadget, Sony's response to today's news: http://www.users.qwest.net/~ktodd4/s...ystatement.mp3

I wouldn't have expected their reply to be so calm and thoughtfully worded.
     
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Aug 20, 2007, 11:30 PM
 
I'm cheering for HD DVD because they have less DRM and I want to be able to rip my HD DVDs for fair use reasons.
     
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Aug 21, 2007, 12:45 AM
 
Those are some DAMN big Fox titles.

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Aug 21, 2007, 12:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Fox just announced a slew of new BD releases, so I'm not sure we can count them as inactive anymore...
Yeah, until Bluray is cracked again and Fox halts their release schedule again...
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Aug 21, 2007, 02:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Gizmodo has noted that, at best, the formats are now even in studio support. 10 studios vs 10 studios. If you take into account the smaller studios, HD-DVD is winning in studio support now 12 vs. 10. If you factor out the inactive studios from Bluray, HD-DVD is winning 12 vs. 8.

State of High Definition: Who's Winning the Studio Support War? - Gizmodo
Interesting point, but if you look at the HIT movies... Blu-ray was winning with ~50% of the top films being Blu-ray only... ~30% being in both formats and ~20% being HD-DVD only. I'm sure that will need to be recalculated now that Paramount has gone HD-DVD only, but there has been considerable talks about Universal going neutral.

IMHO, this is a significant blow to Blu-ray, but ultimately, they will win the overall war. They have been selling more movies... and that isn't going to slow down.

Recently, it's been shown that stand alone Blu-ray players have been outselling HD-DVD players (yep, not counting PS3 systems). IMHO,
     
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Aug 21, 2007, 02:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Yeah, until Bluray is cracked again and Fox halts their release schedule again...
Cracked again? One of the three Blu-ray DRM mechanisms has been compromised (not cracked in the same way DVDs have). They still have two they haven't even implemented.

HD-DVD has had their only DRM compromised.

I would rather see HD-DVD win as it's been cracked, and there isn't any mechanism to fix the crack (that we know of). I simply feel Blu-ray has the momentum.
     
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Aug 21, 2007, 03:23 AM
 
I have a serious question. Do you HD DVD supporters believe the crap you write and does Toshiba pay you to come here? They seem to be making a habit of screwing over consumers by paying people and companies off lately.

I hate Toshiba products because I had nothing but trouble with my last two Toshiba DVD players. I do not want a hardware monopoly for Toshiba. I'm boycotting Paramount and Dreamworks at the box office.

Fox and Warner are going to get my money now.
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Aug 21, 2007, 03:27 AM
 
I was going to buy Transformers on BR, but I guess it's DVD for me now. Thanks so much, Paramount! This news basically balances out the titles that Fox will be releasing, ensuring that this dumbass war will continue for a long time.
     
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Aug 21, 2007, 03:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
I have a serious question. Do you HD DVD supporters believe the crap you write and does Toshiba pay you to come here? They seem to be making a habit of screwing over consumers by paying people and companies off lately.

I hate Toshiba products because I had nothing but trouble with my last two Toshiba DVD players. I do not want a hardware monopoly for Toshiba. I'm boycotting Paramount and Dreamworks at the box office.

Fox and Warner are going to get my money now.
Apparently somebody has a case of the Mondays...



(Samsung is making their combo player. Might not be a bad investment...)

(Oh, I also don't get why your so worried. After all, Universal is going to be publishing Bluray... sometime... soon? in a few years? After all they are the last holdout HD-DVD... oh... well... maybe next format war.)
( Last edited by goMac; Aug 21, 2007 at 03:49 AM. )
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Aug 21, 2007, 03:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
I was going to buy Transformers on BR, but I guess it's DVD for me now. Thanks so much, Paramount! This news basically balances out the titles that Fox will be releasing, ensuring that this dumbass war will continue for a long time.
You know, this is why at the beginning of this whole thing I said that I'll chose a format based on specs and not on studios, because the studios could change any time.

Case and point I guess.
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Aug 21, 2007, 03:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
You know, this is why at the beginning of this whole thing I said that I'll chose a format based on specs and not on studios, because the studios could change any time.

Case and point I guess.
I think you mean "case in point." In any case, it's not as if BR only has/had studio support going for it.
     
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Aug 21, 2007, 03:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
.... but there has been considerable talks about Universal going neutral.
Any talk of studios going neutral or switching at this point is just wishful thinking on the part of fans of a particular format (both sides are guilty of this sort of speculation). No one saw the Paramount thing coming.

IMHO, this is a significant blow to Blu-ray, but ultimately, they will win the overall war. They have been selling more movies... and that isn't going to slow down.
The sales advantage is one of the most overrated arguments used by the blu side. 300 sold almost twice as many SD DVDs in one week than all next generation discs have sold to date. In other words the numbers are just too small to make any meaningful long term predictions. There is still plenty of room for growth, marketing, and spin on both sides.

Recently, it's been shown that stand alone Blu-ray players have been outselling HD-DVD players (yep, not counting PS3 systems). IMHO,
Never mind. I found the a source Blu-ray Player Sales Seen Rising
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Aug 21, 2007, 06:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
I have a serious question. Do you HD DVD supporters believe the crap you write and does Toshiba pay you to come here? They seem to be making a habit of screwing over consumers by paying people and companies off lately.

I hate Toshiba products because I had nothing but trouble with my last two Toshiba DVD players. I do not want a hardware monopoly for Toshiba. I'm boycotting Paramount and Dreamworks at the box office.

Fox and Warner are going to get my money now.


You're right. And Sony is the leading example of a hardware company that cares about consumers. You know, except for that whole rootkit thing.

You do understand that HD DVD winning would not give Toshiba a hardware monopoly, right?

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Aug 21, 2007, 08:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Paramount to Offer Movies in HD DVD - Forbes.com

Paramount and Dreamworks go HD DVD exclusive.
I saw this yesterday on some other website but decided to wait until someone else (like Forbes) confirmed it.

Nice to see it officially confirmed.


Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
I have a serious question. Do you HD DVD supporters believe the crap you write and does Toshiba pay you to come here? They seem to be making a habit of screwing over consumers by paying people and companies off lately.

I hate Toshiba products because I had nothing but trouble with my last two Toshiba DVD players. I do not want a hardware monopoly for Toshiba. I'm boycotting Paramount and Dreamworks at the box office.

Fox and Warner are going to get my money now.
Heh. Anger, the third Kübler-Ross stage.


Originally Posted by jokell82
You do understand that HD DVD winning would not give Toshiba a hardware monopoly, right?
The ironic part is that the HD DVD drive in the 1st gen Toshiba is an NEC drive.
     
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Aug 21, 2007, 08:46 AM
 
And rumor is Lite-on is going to start making them for Toshiba with the 3rd gen players. Could be why the prices are dropping...

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Aug 21, 2007, 08:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
And rumor is Lite-on is going to start making them for Toshiba with the 3rd gen players. Could be why the prices are dropping...
The Lite-On is also for some of the Xbox 360 HD DVD drives.
     
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Aug 21, 2007, 09:47 AM
 
Oh man, I always knew Michael Bay sucked, but this is just hilarious.

Originally Posted by http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/21/michael-bay-responds-to-paramounts-abandonment-of-blu-ray-no-t/
So by now you've heard that Paramount has dropped support for Blu-ray right? Good, so has a notable Hollywood director. Michael Bay -- the man behind "Transformers," "Bad Boys," "Pear Harbor," etc. -- just threw down with Paramount in his personal blog. In a forum post titled "Paramount pisses me off!", he states, "I want people to see my movies in the best formats possible. For them to deny people who have Blu-ray sucks! They were progressive by having two formats. No Transformers 2 for me!" That's right Mike, aim your PS3 right at their coffers!
He sounds like a freaking child. It's nice that he just talked himself out of a sequel. Hey Bay - I want my $10 back from Pearl Harbor. What a piece of sh*t.

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Aug 21, 2007, 10:00 AM
 
I just read that too. Hilarious! The crybaby is essentially refusing a guaranteed multi-million dollar pay-out because he wants blu-ray to win. And I thought people in here were weird with their format zealousness.

EDIT: Oh, and I want my money back for Pearl Harbor as well.
     
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Aug 21, 2007, 10:00 AM
 
I thought Bay wasn't likely gonna be doing TF2 anyway? Either way, Pearl Harbor and Bad Boys would both be Blu-ray exclusive.

So, it sounds like a major bullsh*t blog post.
     
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Aug 21, 2007, 10:03 AM
 
Speaking of (unintentional) hilariousness has anyone seen the Michael Imperioli HD-DVD commercials? First off, he sounds like he's reading from a cue card, and second when did he become respected figure in judging cinema? I always get a kick out of the commercial when it comes on during the Sopranos.
     
 
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