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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning?

View Poll Results: Which do you have? (Choose only ONE. Includes stand-alones and game consoles.)
Poll Options:
HD DVD 34 votes (17.09%)
Blu-ray 87 votes (43.72%)
Both 14 votes (7.04%)
Neither 70 votes (35.18%)
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll
Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning? (Page 58)
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Aug 30, 2007, 12:31 PM
 
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Aug 30, 2007, 12:34 PM
 
Blu-ray's getting the most attention at IFA 07. New stand alone players are being shown as well as a nifty dual format player from Samsung for HD-DVD users who want to switch to Blu-ray or face seeing their discs binned.

Daewoo demos 'Blu-ray Disc 2.0' player | Reg Hardware

Samsung Blu-ray Disc player line blooms | Reg Hardware
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Aug 30, 2007, 12:36 PM
 
Rumor has it Toshiba has had front men buying HD-DVD from online stores in bulk or taking advantage of give away offers. LOL. Crazy company. Still can't beat Blu-ray sales. More soon.
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Aug 30, 2007, 12:48 PM
 
80/20? Wow!

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Aug 30, 2007, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
80/20? Wow!
Yeah, but you do realize that that the numbers are in reverse chronological order, and these percentages make HD-DVD seem to be recovering in recent days, right?
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
Yeah, but you do realize that that the numbers are in reverse chronological order, and these percentages make HD-DVD seem to be recovering in recent days, right?
It's not a recovery. It's a temporary swing because of the number of give aways. The special offers end in September. Now the gossips that Toshiba is buying their own players which come with free discs is pretty funny. That's called manipulating market data. Not the first company to do that and fail.

The'yre looking pathetic trying to beat Blu-ray. What else have they tried? Paying massive amounts of money to Paramount and Dreamworks but still couldn't get Spielberg to go exclusive. Money down the whole. Most amusing is that Toshiba fabs parts for the PS3. The RSX graphics chip is fabbed in Sony and Toshiba factories.
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Aug 30, 2007, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Super Mario View Post
It's not a recovery. It's a temporary swing because of the number of give aways.
You're saying that DVD Empire is giving away HD-DVDs? Because those numbers are only for DVD-Empire sales...
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 01:23 PM
 
The point I was trying to make about Apple's "neutrality" is the the word "neutral" can have different and essentially contradictory meanings, depending on who is using it. Don't we call the studios who release films on both formats "neutral"? But it seems terribly unlikely for Apple to support both formats with its hardware in that way. I've been saying for a long time that Apple hasn't publicly chosen a side, but I think declaring them "neutral" in the same way that Warner Bros. is "neutral" is misleading. We simply don't have any indication of how Apple is leaning, and I fully expect them to stay out of the war for another year or two at least (unless there is a major shift one way or the other).
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 01:25 PM
 
Forget about any HD-DVD comeback. The situation for that format is even worse in Europe.....

BERLIN, Aug. 30, IFA 07 -- Sony Pictures Home Entertainment (SPHE) today announced that the company's Blu-ray Disc(TM) sales across Europe have reached 250,000 while sales in North America are nearing the one million mark approaching the fourth quarter with the Blu-ray launch of the highly anticipated blockbuster SPIDER-MAN 3 and Steven Spielberg's CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND.

These benchmarks follow last week's announcement that sales of the high-definition format in six emerging markets including Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Eastern Europe, South Africa and the Middle East now account for 10 percent of SPHE's total business in the growing regions.

Said David Bishop, President, Worldwide, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment: "These sales milestones across the world illuminate the positive reception from retailers and consumers alike for Blu-ray. Our strong fourth quarter line-up will underscore the confidence in this format."

Since the European launch of the PS3 in March, weekly sales of Blu-ray Disc(TM) titles have averaged between two- and five-times the amount of HD DVD sales week over week.

Blu-ray(TM) High-Def software now accounts for 69% of the total high-definition market in Europe, with SPHE titles making up more than 47% of the total European Blu-ray market. SPHE also holds the #1 best selling high-definition title in Europe -- Casino Royale.

Simon McDowell, Senior Vice President, Europe, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment added: "With the breadth of titles already available on Blu-ray, the format is out-selling HD-DVD by more than 2:1 in Europe. Going into Q4, SPHE has a strong slate on deck and support from retailers, which should further propel momentum for Blu-ray."

As part of the company's fourth quarter Blu-ray Disc(TM) line-up, Spider-Man will be making his way to Blu-ray with the much anticipated release of Spider-Man 3(TM) in Europe from 15 October*. Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 will also be exclusively available for the first time on Blu-ray(TM) High-Def in the Spider-Man High Definition Trilogy Set.

Steven Spielberg's critically acclaimed classic, Close Encounters of the Third Kind will be released in Europe on Blu-ray Disc(TM) from 12 November. All three versions of the film are included on one 50GB disc through seamless branching.

SPHE was the first studio to release Blu-ray titles in Europe and SPHE has released a broad selection of Blu-ray Disc titles since the format's initial launch including Casino Royale and Black Hawk Down. To date SPHE has released more than 40 Blu-ray(TM) High-Def titles across Europe, with more than 30 titles scheduled for release between now and Christmas in Europe.
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Aug 30, 2007, 01:40 PM
 
Um, HD-DVD is ripping Bluray a new one in Europe by all accounts...
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Aug 30, 2007, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Um, HD-DVD is ripping Bluray a new one in Europe by all accounts...
More sourceless lies. If I was to count the amount of lies you and Eug told in the last three days one would have to question what mental illness has gotten into you two or were you raised that way.
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Aug 30, 2007, 01:57 PM
 
I hope when you posted that chart you realized what you were posting...
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Aug 30, 2007, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
The point I was trying to make about Apple's "neutrality" is the the word "neutral" can have different and essentially contradictory meanings, depending on who is using it. Don't we call the studios who release films on both formats "neutral"? But it seems terribly unlikely for Apple to support both formats with its hardware in that way. I've been saying for a long time that Apple hasn't publicly chosen a side, but I think declaring them "neutral" in the same way that Warner Bros. is "neutral" is misleading. We simply don't have any indication of how Apple is leaning, and I fully expect them to stay out of the war for another year or two at least (unless there is a major shift one way or the other).
So you don't think Warner will eventually choose a side?

Of course they will. However, at this time they are neutral, just as Apple says it is at this time.
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 01:59 PM
 
Another major computer manufacturer joins the Blu-ray camp.

Acer chooses Blu-ray
Acer sides with Blu-ray in disc rivalry : Technology

Sony releases two new Blu-ray players in Europe, isn't going bother to sell cheapo players like Toshiba.

IFA 2007 - Sony announces two new Blu-ray players for the European market - SlashGear
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
I hope when you posted that chart you realized what you were posting...
Oh yeah.
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Super Mario View Post
More sourceless lies. If I was to count the amount of lies you and Eug told in the last three days one would have to question what mental illness has gotten into you two or were you raised that way.
You're right. The nefarious Eug and I, in a dastardly plot to rid the world of Bluray for inexplicable reasons, have been making up lies about Bluray, and then we create fake web pages, and infiltrate companies and issue fake press releases.

HD-DVD doesn't actually exist really. It's all just a shadow brand we've created just because we were bored.
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:05 PM
 
How ironic

Question to BDA: it's about Paramount/Dreamworks. People speculated that Paramount were given 'sweeteners''. The person asking wants a Yes or No answer from all of the studios - have you been 'sweetened' to stick exclusively with Blu-ray?
Answer: Nobody wants to answer this.

The FOX exec is given the mic: "We were given very good content protection" (smiles).

(They continue passing the mic around).

Question to BDA: The guy who originally asked the question wants a definite confirmation that NO studio has received any sweetener to stay with Blu-ray.

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Aug 30, 2007, 02:07 PM
 
Yeah, just like I said... it seems Disney was paid off to go Bluray exclusive.
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Yeah, just like I said... it seems Disney was paid off to go Bluray exclusive.
Read what you want into it just remember Steve Jobs is its biggest individual shareholder.
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
So you don't think Warner will eventually choose a side?

Of course they will. However, at this time they are neutral, just as Apple says it is at this time.
I'm saying that we wouldn't normally consider someone who supports both sides to be neutral. Neutral means to not support either. So yes, Apple is neutral in that sense, but not in the sense the a lot of people are using the word.
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
we create fake web pages, and infiltrate companies and issue fake press releases.
No, you just say sourceless stuff, make stuff up on the spot and have your own version of reality. HD-DVD won't be on shelves by end of 2008. Quote me.
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Yeah, just like I said... it seems Disney was paid off to go Bluray exclusive.
I don't recall anybody contending they were not. I've always assumed that Disney, Fox, Blockbuster, Target, et al. got something in return for their support.
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Um, HD-DVD is ripping Bluray a new one in Europe by all accounts...
Which accounts? Sony says in a press release that BD is up 2:1. Are you saying they're wrong?
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by *TL View Post
Which accounts? Sony says in a press release that BD is up 2:1. Are you saying they're wrong?
He lied about HD-DVD winning in Europe. God, there's no point asking him for sources he can't get. Blu-ray has completely grabbed the spotlight at IFA 07 in Berlin.
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Aug 30, 2007, 02:44 PM
 
For the past few days HD DVD has been beating Blu-Ray on Amazon.com in both hardware and software. Movie sales:
HdGameDb.com :: The Definitive High Definition Video Game Database :: HD DVD / Blu-ray Graphs

Player sales:
Amazon.com Bestsellers

For a while the HD-A2 was the highest selling item in all of consumer electronics. It has since slipped to #3. The top selling Blu-Ray player is #21 on the DVD player list.

More data:
The Product Wars fought on Amazon.com

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Aug 30, 2007, 02:59 PM
 
So, as far as I can tell, the Sony and the Sharp players are Blu-ray Profile 1.0. That's pretty lame, as they'll be obsolete in 2 months.

I don't know about the Philips player, but my guess is that it is also Profile 1.0.

Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Um, HD-DVD is ripping Bluray a new one in Europe by all accounts...
AFAIK, that is wrong.


Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
For the past few days HD DVD has been beating Blu-Ray on Amazon.com in both hardware and software. Movie sales:
HdGameDb.com :: The Definitive High Definition Video Game Database :: HD DVD / Blu-ray Graphs

Player sales:
Amazon.com Bestsellers

For a while the HD-A2 was the highest selling item in all of consumer electronics. It has since slipped to #3. The top selling Blu-Ray player is #21 on the DVD player list.

More data:
The Product Wars fought on Amazon.com
That is probably temporary, but it does illustrate how tough this format battle is.
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
That is probably temporary
Very temporary. It's just people with their end of the month checks spending more than the early part of the month. It evens out sales of many products for a week or so. Same thing happened towards the end of last month.



Blu-ray is and will keep staying in the lead. Amazon accounts for very little overall compared to real retail and rental stores.

There are now eight PC manufacturers building Blu-ray in their computers versus three who use HD-DVD. Blu-ray has more playback systems on the market which include PCs, PS3 and stand alone players. This isn't even a battle anymore.

Let's not forget Toshiba makes money out of every RSX GPU they fab for the PS3 so I'm not even sure if they really believe in their HD-DVD or are they just selling crap and then make people upgrade later, which means more consumer spending and more profits.
( Last edited by Super Mario; Aug 30, 2007 at 03:46 PM. )
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Aug 30, 2007, 03:53 PM
 
Just for kicks I went to Dell to configure a PC with an HD-DVD drive.

OOPS! You can't. Blu-Ray only.

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Aug 30, 2007, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Just for kicks I went to Dell to configure a PC with an HD-DVD drive.

OOPS! You can't. Blu-Ray only.
Have fun with your Blu-Ray equipped Dell.

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Aug 30, 2007, 04:33 PM
 
Last month saw a 61% increase for PS3 sales after the price cut and this month they are almost selling out. SCEA's warehouse is completely depleted of 60GB models.

News: Sony runs out of 60GB PS3s in the US - ComputerAndVideoGames.com

More power to Blu-ray.
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Aug 30, 2007, 04:37 PM
 
ITPro: News: HD DVD sales outstripping Blu-ray 3:1 in Europe
HD DVD sales outstripping Blu-ray 3:1 in Europe
Posted by IT PRO and Reuters at 10:44AM, Thursday 12th July 2007

Toshiba-backed HD DVD group reveals yet more data showing that Blu-ray is failing to build on its initial surge in adoption.

HD DVD video players are outselling rival standard Blu-ray players by a three-to-one margin in Europe's main markets so far this year, despite the introduction of Sony's PlayStation 3 Blu-ray-based games console.
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 04:39 PM
 
LIES, more lies!
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Super Mario View Post
Last month saw a 61% increase for PS3 sales after the price cut and this month they are almost selling out. SCEA's warehouse is completely depleted of 60GB models.

News: Sony runs out of 60GB PS3s in the US - ComputerAndVideoGames.com

More power to Blu-ray.
That's because they stopped making them. It drove sales because the new 80gb models will not have the Emotion Engine built in, so PS2 games will be emulated in software. Once they're gone the PS3 will go back to it's normal selling pace, and go back to getting trounced by both Nintendo and Microsoft.

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Aug 30, 2007, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
That's because they stopped making them. It drove sales because the new 80gb models will not have the Emotion Engine built in, so PS2 games will be emulated in software. Once they're gone the PS3 will go back to it's normal selling pace, and go back to getting trounced by both Nintendo and Microsoft.
let me guess, LIES, all lies!
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 05:00 PM
 
The current state of Blu-Ray:

Originally Posted by http://www.campaignhd.com/807_State_Of_BD.html
(1) The software challenges being encountered in getting the BD 1.1 player spec to function properly have been FAR steeper than the BDA anticipated, even when they moved the "deadline" again from May 2007, to November 2007. To further complicate matters, BD players are coming in various "shapes and sizes", if you will, meaning that code has to be refined and perfected on each hardware platform to ensure that they all behave the same with various software releases tested. The only BD 1.1 player announced to date has been delayed till 2008. Warner and other studios seem to have the expectation that these BD 1.1 players will be ready in November for them to release BD titles with advanced features, such as The Matrix - into which they have invested heavily. Indications are now that this can't happen till 2008! how happy is Warner?



(2) The manufacturing problems with BD50 discs appear to be FAR from over, which has caught even sceptical observers like me by surprise. There is now talk that only Sony is able to manufacture these discs at anything close to viable yields - and by viable, we may be talking only 40%! And while BD "sources" have recently listed other BD50 replicators, beside Sony, in online forums, it now appears from insiders that non-Sony replicators are only seeing 10% yields in BD50 manufacture! That would mean that 90% of a run has to be discarded. Word is that these replicators, quite naturally, are not taking on commercial jobs and that other replication firms are naturally hesitant to invest the FAR higher sums of money required to get BD50 plants installed, until the technology works properly. Many of those who have invested in Bluray plants are only producing BD25.



(3) Costs. While BD-DL production is said to be between 10% and 40%, the HD DVD replicators are apparently seeing 95% yields on HD DVD DL-30 discs. Perhaps, partly as a result of this, the true difference in manufacturing costs is said to be huge. While only those directly involved could know for sure whether the insider whispers are correct, the cost of BD50 replication is estimated to be between $6 and $6.50 per disc (based on a $5 differential between BD25 and BD50) compared to $1.05 for HD DVD DL30.


(4) Talk of Sony subsidies has surfaced again, and some feel that Sony is not able to continue subsidising these massive costs as the volumes of disc runs get higher and higher as the two formats grow in the market. One poster indicates that any BD release that sells less than 100,000 copies may lose money, though we are uncertain whether that was with or without a subsidy factored in.


(5) The BD-J programming language used by the Bluray format is said to be far more complicated and difficult to program for than the HDi language used on the HD DVD format. Studios have expressed frustration, as have insiders involved in the process. This has apparently forced studios supporting Bluray to invest more heavily in becoming programming companies instead of studios. And the programmers are expensive. Worse yet, indications are that testing these features has been made very difficult, due to the lack of working BD 1.1 players on which to test the code, and the hardware differences between the various BD player platforms in existence.



(6) Due to what appears to be ill-thought out strategies on copy-protection, new Bluray players coming out are said to have been forced (apparently by Sony) to limit playback of BD-R/RE recordable discs, or of BDMV content from BD-R/RE discs. According to one Sony insider, the BD players were "never supposed to" be able to play these BDMV BD-R discs anyway, and that there was only a grace period (which has now expired) during which this was allowed, to help studios test. One insider happily defended his case by stating that Bluray players are not required to playback BD-R/RE discs anyway!



(7) Sales of the PS3, on which a Bluray victory was apparently predicated have been much lower than projected. It is said that the studios were promised that the PS3 would sell 6 million units in the US by the end of this year, but has so far manged only 25% of that target. And the "software attach rates", the number of owners that buy movies, has been touted as 80% by Sony, yet appears to be as little as a quarter of that.


(8) At least one BD studio is said to be very unhappy with Bluray.
You can argue the site is HD DVD biased all you want, but all sources are provided (well, except for #8).

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Aug 30, 2007, 05:48 PM
 
LIES! We all know that Bluray is beating HD-DVD in Europe! This is just another one of your and Eug's lies!
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Aug 30, 2007, 05:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
LIES! We all know that Bluray is beating HD-DVD in Europe! This is just another one of your and Eug's lies!
ITPro: News: HD DVD sales outstripping Blu-ray 3:1 in Europe

Read that article more carefully:

"The Sony -led Blu-ray lobby group includes Samsung, Apple and Dell. Its discs, which are outselling HD DVD discs, can store more information and special features but the technology is more expensive."

What does that tell you about the fabulous "attachment rate" of HD-DVD-players?
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
ITPro: News: HD DVD sales outstripping Blu-ray 3:1 in Europe

Read that article more carefully:

"The Sony -led Blu-ray lobby group includes Samsung, Apple and Dell. Its discs, which are outselling HD DVD discs, can store more information and special features but the technology is more expensive."

What does that tell you about the fabulous "attachment rate" of HD-DVD-players?
Nothing at all. Why?

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Aug 30, 2007, 06:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Just for kicks I went to Dell to configure a PC
You officially lose your Mac membership card.

That's standalones, not software.

Originally Posted by jokell82
You can argue the site is HD DVD biased all you want, but all sources are provided (well, except for #8).
That's pretty biased. I believe some of it is true but the guy who wrote likes to fan the flames, so to speak, and sometimes goes overboard doing that.
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Just for kicks I went to Dell to configure a PC with an HD-DVD drive.

OOPS! You can't. Blu-Ray only.
Just for kicks I went to Toshiba to configure a PC with an Bluray drive.

OOPS! You can't. HD-DVD only.

There, I proved a point just as valuable as yours.
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Aug 30, 2007, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Have fun with your Blu-Ray equipped Dell.
I said "just for kicks"



The POINT (since you missed it) was to say that there's no HD-DVD option.

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Aug 30, 2007, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Just for kicks I went to Toshiba to configure a PC with an Bluray drive.

OOPS! You can't. HD-DVD only.

There, I proved a point just as valuable as yours.
'Cause we all know how popular Toshiba PCs are

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Clinically Insane
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Aug 30, 2007, 07:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I said "just for kicks"



The POINT (since you missed it) was to say that there's no HD-DVD option.
Well, what do you expect? Dell has officially backed Blu-ray. They are not format neutral. That's like going to Sony and saying they don't sell HD DVDs, which was goMac's point.

Originally Posted by starman View Post
'Cause we all know how popular Toshiba PCs are
Toshiba laptops sales are in the top 3 in the US, and way ahead of Apple's, for example.
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 07:40 PM
 
this thread is amazing.
we don't have time to stop for gas
     
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Aug 30, 2007, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Well, what do you expect? Dell has officially backed Blu-ray. They are not format neutral. That's like going to Sony and saying they don't sell HD DVDs, which was goMac's point.
Is it the same? The last I checked, Dell has nothing to do with the Blu-Ray spec. Oh, Sony does!

You fail at analogies.

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Eug
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Aug 30, 2007, 11:14 PM
 
Sweet.




     
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Aug 31, 2007, 01:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Toshiba laptops sales are in the top 3 in the US, and way ahead of Apple's, for example.
Only their budget models. Their high end Qosmio hardly sells squint compared to high end Dells, Macs, Alienwares and Sonys.
Anyone who denies climate changes naturally is a Climate Change Skeptic.
     
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Aug 31, 2007, 01:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post

crappy link to crappy tech site about crappy hd-dvd players but not about movie sales
Somehow goMac forgot how to read or is being the usual manipulative liar.
Anyone who denies climate changes naturally is a Climate Change Skeptic.
     
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Aug 31, 2007, 01:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
That's because they stopped making them. blah blah blech
Where's your source?
Anyone who denies climate changes naturally is a Climate Change Skeptic.
     
Eug
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Aug 31, 2007, 01:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Super Mario View Post
Only their budget models. Their high end Qosmio hardly sells squint compared to high end Dells, Macs, Alienwares and Sonys.
Where's your source?
     
 
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