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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning?

View Poll Results: Which do you have? (Choose only ONE. Includes stand-alones and game consoles.)
Poll Options:
HD DVD 34 votes (17.09%)
Blu-ray 87 votes (43.72%)
Both 14 votes (7.04%)
Neither 70 votes (35.18%)
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll
Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning? (Page 64)
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Sep 11, 2007, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
I don't think it all comes down to money, though. And if it did, HD DVD would win by default as Warner gets royalties for the format.

Paramount said when they made their decision they also looked at the costs of production, the completed spec, and the *working* interactive features - and all of that helped sway their decision. I imagine that *if* Warner were to go HD DVD exclusive, they would also have similar reasons.

Also remember, Warner went neutral 3 weeks after Paramount did.
Hints from the insiders are that Warner will stay neutral for the time being. That seems like the case to me, although stranger things have happened... like Paramount/Dreamworks.

Of course "incentives" are not the only thing that will win them over, but money is a powerful thing nonetheless.
     
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Sep 11, 2007, 05:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82
I don't think it all comes down to money, though. And if it did, HD DVD would win by default as Warner gets royalties for the format.
That raises the question: Why is WB format neutral? I don't ask that rhetorically -- I've never understood why WB was supporting Blu-ray at all.
     
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Sep 11, 2007, 05:25 PM
 
I would assume because of higher disc sales, and Warner could make more money *now* being neutral.

Apparently Sony is subsidizing the costs of replication, so it wouldn't cost too much more to be format neutral.

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Sep 12, 2007, 01:05 AM
 
Started watching Heroes on my Xbox 360 HD DVD.

1) This show is frickin awesome. Great story.

2) I can't access the web content on my 360. Lame.
     
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Sep 12, 2007, 09:29 AM
 
Uh oh... According to Denon, the manufacturer of Blu-ray's first Profile 1.1 player:

JT: The profile itself is the next step in the Blu-ray evolution. HD DVD is what I call a "baked format", meaning it's basically done. There are some copy protection things, but that's later, and they’re not going to affect performance and playback of material. For Blu-ray, on the other hand, Profile 1.1 is just the next step — there's actually a Version 2 some time next year. That's going to deal with players and the software, so it's two-sided. But back to Profile 1.1. It mandates that players must have secondary audio and video processing for picture-in-picture capabilities, be able to support external storage of some type — or internal storage, it's really an option, I believe — for downloaded Web material. Current Profile 1.0 Blu-ray players do not have to have any “connect” port. Those that do, it's really for firmware update, but that’s the only thing it's really good for. Where HD DVD, has HDI, it's an interactive version. And even that port is required to go to a movie’s web site or a dedicated space to download extra material. When our player comes out, the first thing people will notice on the front panel is that is has an SD card slot. We give you an SD card, and obviously, you can buy others. You would take that to your computer, go to the movie website on the card and download this material, toss it into the player, and then be able to access that simultaneously with the movie playback.

LU: Will that load the information to the disc's menu system?

JT: Most likely. I haven't seen it in true operation yet; once I get it, obviously, I'll know. But that's the premise. So you can have running pictures of the director, of the actors doing commentary or whatever other material the studio feels that they want to give you to make it a truly interactive experience. After that, it's standard Blu-ray. But there is a possibility — and this is maybe not so public knowledge — that when these discs come out that fit this new profile, they may not work properly with the Profile 1.0 players.


Also:

LU: Why did Denon go with Blu-ray rather than HD DVD?

JT: We decided to go Blu-ray because we found a partner that we can work with at this point in time quicker than we could to do HD DVD. We're not picking one format over the other — we want to make that very clear. We happen to have a partner that we've worked with for years, and they wanted to work with us first, and so it just was like a nice marriage. The door is wide open for HD DVD, and as many have said, the market's going to tell us where we need to go. In our particular instance, our goal is to have a true universal audio/video player. All audio formats, including SACD and DVD-Audio, as well as HD DVD and Blu-ray video.

LU: So you would consider doing a combo player with Blu-ray and HD DVD?

JT: That's probably our number one consideration at this point in time. They're just starting to come out from some of the major players — obviously, Samsung has introduced theirs. They'll be out this fall, while the LG player, you know, it's not a true HD DVD player — it's not a licensed HD DVD product. LG has to make their own logo, it doesn't display menus for movies, and all this other stuff. So Samsung's going to be the first true combo player. And hats off to them.
     
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Sep 12, 2007, 10:08 AM
 
Heh, I was about to come in here and post the same thing.

1.1 discs possibly not working on 1.0 players? That is TERRIBLE news for Blu-Ray.

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Sep 12, 2007, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Heh, I was about to come in here and post the same thing.

1.1 discs possibly not working on 1.0 players? That is TERRIBLE news for Blu-Ray.
"not work properly" and "not working" are two different things. If the 1.0 players can do most of the primary functions (AKA, play the movie, have access to the extras, etc. etc.) I would still consider it functional, but it may not include some of the more advanced features.
     
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Sep 12, 2007, 10:15 AM
 
And I thought we already discussed this issue at length.
     
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Sep 12, 2007, 10:19 AM
 
Hope springs eternal.
     
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Sep 12, 2007, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post
"not work properly" and "not working" are two different things. If the 1.0 players can do most of the primary functions (AKA, play the movie, have access to the extras, etc. etc.) I would still consider it functional, but it may not include some of the more advanced features.
That's not what he's talking about. The point is that 1.0 players may have compatibility issues with 1.1 discs (aka not play the movie properly, have access to the extras, etc. etc.).

I suspect many of these issues will be fixable through firmware updates, but that's not guaranteed either.


Originally Posted by icruise View Post
And I thought we already discussed this issue at length.
I think this article adds a level of reality to the discussion. Some here had simply assumed that all 1.0 players would have full compatibility with movie playback with all 1.1 discs, no problem. Now we have Denon's head hardware honcho saying that this is not the case.
     
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Sep 12, 2007, 10:55 AM
 
Well, to be fair, the Denon guy didn't really say much. "they may not work properly" basically says very little as to what would not work properly.

I don't see this format war being decided by such issues.
     
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Sep 12, 2007, 11:29 AM
 
Of course the HD-DVD fanbois have to be all over anything negative about BR, regardless of the fact that HD-DVD had its own set of problems.

^ 100

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Sep 12, 2007, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Of course the HD-DVD fanbois have to be all over anything negative about BR, regardless of the fact that HD-DVD had its own set of problems.

^ 100
Translation: Well I can't say anything about this so I'll whine about "fanbois" and point out old problems with the other side!

As a Blu-Ray fan you can't see this as being an issue at all? It's just cannon fodder for the HD DVD camp, nothing more???

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Sep 12, 2007, 11:58 AM
 
Are you saying they're going to put out something that can't be fixed?

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Sep 12, 2007, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Are you saying they're going to put out something that can't be fixed?
Yep. Happens all the time, not sure why it's not believable that it could happen here.

Players were built to meet the 1.0 spec - if the 1.1 spec requires anything in it more than a simple firmware fix, you can bet that there will be players left in the dust. It may not be a *big* issue for 1.1 - maybe a few advanced features that don't work. However, the 2.0 spec will be a HUGE change and you can be sure more than a few people will be left in the dust.

Of course, one could always choose a format that has a *completed* spec already.
( Last edited by jokell82; Sep 12, 2007 at 12:18 PM. )

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Sep 12, 2007, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Yep. Happens all the time, not sure why it's not believable that it could happen here.

Players were built to meet the 1.0 spec - if the 1.1 spec requires anything in it more than a simple firmware fix, you can bet that there will be players left in the dust. It may not be a *big* issue for 1.1 - maybe a few advanced features that don't work. However, the 2.0 spec will be a HUGE change and you can be sure more than a few people will be left in the dust.

Of course, you could always choose a format that has a *completed* spec already.
Oh, haha! A /wink. Aren't you so clever.

And if you actually READ anything I wrote, I own BOTH formats.

Players MAY be left in the dust, but this goes back to a point I asked about a few weeks back: do 1.0 machines that you put a 1.1 disc in allow you to still play the movie?

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Sep 12, 2007, 12:17 PM
 
There I fixed it. Sheesh. No need to get all uppity.

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Sep 12, 2007, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
And I thought we already discussed this issue at length.
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Sep 12, 2007, 03:12 PM
 
crave: The 3rd layer of HD DVD triple-layer 51 GB will work on existing players, but is harder to read

We discussed this with James Armour from Toshiba's optical storage division at CeBIT this year, and were told that although the third layer would be harder to read, and generate more data errors, the player's error correction should be able to fix these problems without picture and sound problems.


Originally Posted by starman View Post
Of course the HD-DVD fanbois have to be all over anything negative about BR, regardless of the fact that HD-DVD had its own set of problems.

^ 100
I guess you missed my post about HD DVD problems right before my post about BD Profile problems.

^ 101
     
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Sep 12, 2007, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by *TL View Post
That raises the question: Why is WB format neutral? I don't ask that rhetorically -- I've never understood why WB was supporting Blu-ray at all.
This 2005 BusinessWeek article about the possibility of WB going neutral might answer my question:

But those with knowledge of the negotiations say they have focused on three key areas: ... how Sony would treat Warner's [DVD] patents ....
....
That might enable Warner to get a break on the so-called cross-licensing of its patents -- where the costs for its patents are traded off against the cost of patents it uses that are controlled by members of the Sony consortium.
If accurate, the BDA is essentially giving WB credit for its DVD patents against royalties on Blu-ray patents, leveling the playing field as far as WB is concerned.
     
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Sep 12, 2007, 06:39 PM
 
Like I've always said... Q4 2007 will be one of the most crucial quarters in this format war, and hardware prices matter.

Warner Remains Loyal To Dual HD Formats

TWICE: Have you received offers from HD DVD or Blu-ray to be exclusive with either format, as Paramount recently did with HD DVD?

Sanders: We’re talking to both sides and it’s crazy right now. We remain committed to both for the time being. We’ll see how the fourth quarter plays out. The consumer is still kind of divided, and we still believe that we should offer the content in both formats. Now, we will watch the marketplace very closely, and see how it plays out, but for now we are supporting both.

TWICE: What do you expect will happen?

Sanders: It’s really hard to handicap. I can’t tell, which side, if any, will win. Right now it’s like a Mexican standoff. If the consumer continues to support both formats, the industry will as well. It will be really pivotal what Toshiba does this fourth quarter in hardware. If they sell through everything they ship, and it’s a big number at the price points that are coming out, then I think [HD DVD] will be around for a long time. If they don’t, then it could go Blu-ray’s way. But Toshiba is getting very, very aggressive on pricing, which is putting pressure on Blu-ray player manufacturers to bring prices down. As a content company we just want more hardware in the homes. So what ever drives more hardware is good to see. Right now it looks like there is price pressure on both sides because there are two formats — more pressure than there would be if there was only one format. So, for our interests, more razors means we’ll sell more razor blades down the road.
     
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Sep 13, 2007, 01:56 PM
 
HD-DVD's lack of region coding bites the format in the ass:

The Digital Bits - Celebrating Film in the Digital Age

"The HD-DVD version is being delayed until next year, because the format doesn't offer region coding and the studio needs to be sensitive to the release dates of "independent international distributors," according to New Line's EVP of marketing Matt Lasorsa."

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Sep 13, 2007, 03:11 PM
 
Hmm. Region coding or Hairspray. I think we can live without Hairspray and remain region free.

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Sep 13, 2007, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Hmm. Region coding or Hairspray. I think we can live without Hairspray and remain region free.
You don't understand. We should be thankful for bassackwards systems like region coding. That way we can watch movies like Hairspray.

I mean, New Line's justification sounds acceptable. HD-DVD is one those abnormal region free formats. Imagine if you were a music distributor and anyone in any region could just buy your cd's and play them. Ok, not the best example. Hmmmm... Ok. Imagine if you wrote software and anyone anywhere in the world would be able to use your software. Hmmm... ok so not the best example again. Alright, imagine if you published a website and anyone anywhere in the world could view it...
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Sep 13, 2007, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
You don't understand. We should be thankful for bassackwards systems like region coding. That way we can watch movies like Hairspray.

I mean, New Line's justification sounds acceptable. HD-DVD is one those abnormal region free formats. Imagine if you were a music distributor and anyone in any region could just buy your cd's and play them. Ok, not the best example. Hmmmm... Ok. Imagine if you wrote software and anyone anywhere in the world would be able to use your software. Hmmm... ok so not the best example again. Alright, imagine if you published a website and anyone anywhere in the world could view it...
Denial

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Sep 13, 2007, 03:59 PM
 
The funny thing is that they think region coding actually prevents the movie from being seen outside the released region. Maybe New Line should look at how well that's worked for DVD so far.

I mean, I sure as hell can't find a region-free player, and I can't find any DVD rips online either...

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Sep 13, 2007, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
IOk, not the best example. ...

Hmmm... ok so not the best example again. ...
You're right. They're not the best examples, given that the music and software industries are not analogous to the (often byzantine) systems used to finance, produce, and distribute motion pictures internationally.

(Although I can understand the HD folks not being too broken up about Hairspray, in the same way I'm not not bothered that my format of choice currently doesn't allow disc makers to try sell me ringtones and wallpaper.)
     
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Sep 13, 2007, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
The funny thing is that they think region coding actually prevents the movie from being seen outside the released region. Maybe New Line should look at how well that's worked for DVD so far.

I mean, I sure as hell can't find a region-free player, and I can't find any DVD rips online either...
So what you're saying is that all this is complete bullshit and we should buy illegal machines and pirate everything.

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Sep 13, 2007, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
So what you're saying is that all this is complete bullshit and we should buy illegal machines and pirate everything.
Sure, if you want to interpret what I wrote like a retarded monkey.

*REGION CODES* are complete bullshit as they don't actually prevent distribution in other regions - they only prevent LEGAL distribution. But if these companies want piracy to flourish and not combat it with reasonable practices so be it.

Also, if by "illegal machines" you mean region-free players, they aren't illegal. Thanks for playing, though.

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Sep 13, 2007, 04:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Sure, if you want to interpret what I wrote like a retarded monkey.

*REGION CODES* are complete bullshit as they don't actually prevent distribution in other regions - they only prevent LEGAL distribution. But if these companies want piracy to flourish and not combat it with reasonable practices so be it.

Also, if by "illegal machines" you mean region-free players, they aren't illegal. Thanks for playing, though.
Namecalling, eh? Remember what happened to the last person that did that.

You understand very little about how movies are distributed in other countries.

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Sep 13, 2007, 04:43 PM
 
It's only name calling if you're not familiar with similes.

Please teach me about foreign movie distribution, though. I'm willing to learn.

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Sep 13, 2007, 04:44 PM
 
So you're admitting that you don't know anything about it, but you're more than able to call people names over it? Good boy.

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Sep 13, 2007, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
So you're admitting that you don't know anything about it, but you're more than able to call people names over it? Good boy.
Where did you read an admission of anything? I'd like to know how you think foreign distribution is not affected by piracy and region-free dvd players. Do you have an answer or not?

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Sep 13, 2007, 04:50 PM
 
First you asked about foreign movie distribution. Now you're asking about how it's not affected by piracy and region-free DVD players. Please make up your mind because you're not communicating well. They're two COMPLETELY different things.

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Sep 13, 2007, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
*REGION CODES* are complete bullshit as they don't actually prevent distribution in other regions - they only prevent LEGAL distribution. But if these companies want piracy to flourish and not combat it with reasonable practices so be it.
Originally Posted by starman View Post
You understand very little about how movies are distributed in other countries.
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Please teach me about foreign movie distribution, though. I'm willing to learn.
Originally Posted by starman View Post
So you're admitting that you don't know anything about it, but you're more than able to call people names over it? Good boy.
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Where did you read an admission of anything? I'd like to know how you think foreign distribution is not affected by piracy and region-free dvd players. Do you have an answer or not?
Originally Posted by starman View Post
First you asked about foreign movie distribution. Now you're asking about how it's not affected by piracy and region-free DVD players. Please make up your mind because you're not communicating well. They're two COMPLETELY different things.
If you'd like to take a look back, I first mentioned that New Line somehow believes region coding prevents foreign movie distribution, but that this was a fallacy as it only prevents LEGAL foreign distribution. Piracy and importing DVDs (using region-free players) definitely allow movies to be seen in other countries regardless of region codes.

But you said I know very little of foreign movie distribution. Since I only talked about it in reference to piracy and region-free players, it is quite logical to conclude that you took exception to what I wrote. But now we're talking about different things?

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Sep 13, 2007, 05:06 PM
 
You seem to make it sound like because of piracy and region-free players that region coding is useless. You tend to forget that it's not our decision to distribute these movies as we want, it's the decision of the studio. Now, personally I think that region coding is a double-edged sword but it's not my decision to make. If the studios want control over how things SHOULD be distributed, that's their right, not ours. I don't necessarily LIKE it, but I can understand it.

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Sep 13, 2007, 05:09 PM
 
It basically is useless, as if you want to see the movie before it is released in your region you can. Region codes do not prevent that.

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Sep 13, 2007, 05:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
It basically is useless, as if you want to see the movie before it is released in your region you can. Region codes do not prevent that.
It doesn't prevent what it aims to do but it does slow it down because most consumers aren't region code hackers. Basically movies don't make much money, if at all, in theaters and therefore every trick in the book has to be played to maximize video sales. If you care about watching movies you'd support it otherwise film studios go bust or get taken over by companies or billionaires who have even less interest in film or what consumers like you want. Of all things, the very last thing you'd want to see is some Russian or Chinese firm taking over a Hollywood studio. If you understand how bad that would be you'll support region coding, DRM, anything that keeps our companies afloat.
     
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Sep 13, 2007, 07:01 PM
 
He obviously doesn't get it. This is nothing new, companies have controlled distribution in SOME form for years. Built-in "securities" like PAL and SECAM have helped also.

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Sep 13, 2007, 10:03 PM
 
Yes, my objections to region coding are because I don't *get it*. The distribution model of your average studio is so far over my head that I often get dizzy and puke if I think about it. Heaven forbid that the realities of the market place (instant communication between people anywhere in the world) might cause studios to adjust their business model. But hey, **** that. Why should they have to adapt? Artificial barriers to control distribution is a much better choice for consumers. When that fails, rootkits are cool.

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Sep 13, 2007, 10:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
If you care about watching movies you'd support it otherwise film studios go bust or get taken over by companies or billionaires who have even less interest in film or what consumers like you want. Of all things, the very last thing you'd want to see is some Russian or Chinese firm taking over a Hollywood studio. If you understand how bad that would be you'll support region coding, DRM, anything that keeps our companies afloat.


Seriously, that's the funniest **** I've read all week. Thanks!

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Sep 13, 2007, 10:57 PM
 
See, you're dealing with someone who grew up thinking it's OK to steal.

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Sep 13, 2007, 11:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post


Seriously, that's the funniest **** I've read all week. Thanks!
I was certain he was being sarcastic. He can't be serious is he? Seriously?!?!
     
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Sep 13, 2007, 11:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
See, you're dealing with someone who grew up thinking it's OK to steal.
Maybe he feels that sort of rational (protect me from myself) is a laughable position. Before you go accusing me of being common thief, I'm prepared to bust out my receipt list for the year and compare. I'm willing to bet I'm 5x the paying consumer whore that just about anyone else in this thread.

So, lets say I oppose DRM on music CDs. I would like to be able to rip my CDs and use them on my iPod, media center, etc. By your logic, not only am I a thief, I'm maliciously attempting to destroy the music industry and its artist (that it currently rapes). I know... it's not the same thing.

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Sep 13, 2007, 11:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
See, you're dealing with someone who grew up thinking it's OK to steal.
The laughs are non-stop today.

So by being pro-consumer rights that means I think it's ok to steal and that I support the death of the movie industry?

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Sep 13, 2007, 11:57 PM
 
TL51 not yet fully approved after all:

The formal Toshiba statement reads as follows: "We welcome the DVD Forum Steering Committee's decision to approve the preliminary version (Version 1.9) of the physical specifications for the triple-layer 51 GB HD DVD-ROM disc. This decision reinforces the fact that HD DVD is capable of offering a range of capacities due to the flexible nature of the format and provides studios with even greater options for creating high definition content. With extended capacities, studios can meet their future needs for releases that may require more storage."

Toshiba's admission today is the first genuine admission from the company that work on engineering the final "Trip-Layer" format has actually not been completed, as was previously believed.
     
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Sep 13, 2007, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Maybe he feels that sort of rational (protect me from myself) is a laughable position. Before you go accusing me of being common thief, I'm prepared to bust out my receipt list for the year and compare. I'm willing to bet I'm 5x the paying consumer whore that just about anyone else in this thread.

So, lets say I oppose DRM on music CDs. I would like to be able to rip my CDs and use them on my iPod, media center, etc. By your logic, not only am I a thief, I'm maliciously attempting to destroy the music industry and its artist (that it currently rapes). I know... it's not the same thing.
How is him mentioning torrents (piracy) the same as you ripping your own CDs?

And you don't want to take that bet with me. I'd pwn you.

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Sep 14, 2007, 12:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
How is him mentioning torrents (piracy) the same as you ripping your own CDs?

And you don't want to take that bet with me. I'd pwn you.
Why are you even linking the two? I mentioned piracy as a reason region codes don't work (although I'm not sure where I mentioned torrents - maybe you just made that up).

But I guess being anti-DRM means you're pro-piracy. Makes a lot of sense.

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Sep 14, 2007, 12:10 AM
 
And again, people show that they'd rather go off on a tangent than directly tackle the question.

_I_ didn't bring up ripping CDs, pooka did.

By your logic, not only am I a thief, I'm maliciously attempting to destroy the music industry and its artist (that it currently rapes).

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Sep 14, 2007, 12:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
TL51 not yet fully approved after all:

The formal Toshiba statement reads as follows: "We welcome the DVD Forum Steering Committee's decision to approve the preliminary version (Version 1.9) of the physical specifications for the triple-layer 51 GB HD DVD-ROM disc. This decision reinforces the fact that HD DVD is capable of offering a range of capacities due to the flexible nature of the format and provides studios with even greater options for creating high definition content. With extended capacities, studios can meet their future needs for releases that may require more storage."

Toshiba's admission today is the first genuine admission from the company that work on engineering the final "Trip-Layer" format has actually not been completed, as was previously believed.
Will current players be able to play triple-layered HD-DVDs?

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