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Eug · Sep 13, 2007, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Will current players be able to play triple-layered HD-DVDs?

Dunno.

People who went to CEDIA were told by Toshiba engineers and reps that it would work on all HD DVD player models ever released. However, they also say that format testing is only underway now.

So that means, in theory it should work, and it works on test units, but the real world is a different kettle of fish. Just because it works on a few tweaked test units doesn't mean that factory assembled machines will automatically work fine with TL51 discs after just a firmware update.

FWIW, even the first NEC drive in the Toshiba HD-A1 first generation listed TL45 compatibility. However, it should be noted that one Toshiba engineer says that while the 3rd layer should work on existing players, the 3rd layer is indeed harder to read, and thus may generate a few more errors. OTOH, he goes on to say that error correction routines would correct these and there would not be any affect on playback. However, depending on the severity of this I'm thinking that some borderline machines could run into problems, if say the disc were slightly scratched or something.

So short answer - Dunno, but techies hinting it should work on all players in theory, but real testing is only happening now.

starman · Sep 13, 2007, 10:37 PM

You do realize that if it doesn't, it'll only give the BR fans a "ha ha!" to throw back at HD-DVD fans in regards to the whole 1.1 issue.

Eug · Sep 13, 2007, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by starman

You do realize that if it doesn't, it'll only give the BR fans a "ha ha!" to throw back at HD-DVD fans in regards to the whole 1.1 issue.

Of course... except that if TL51 fails to test well, it will simply never be used.

Fortunately, TL51 is not crucial. BD 1.1 is.

goMac · Sep 13, 2007, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by starman

You do realize that if it doesn't, it'll only give the BR fans a "ha ha!" to throw back at HD-DVD fans in regards to the whole 1.1 issue.

From all indications, it sounds like they will be able to play in older players, just with less tolerance for scratches, which is expected when adding another layer.

If they don't play in older players, I don't expect anyone will use TL50, making it a non-issue. HD-DVD has been doing just fine with 30 gigs. I don't care that much about TL50.

goMac · Sep 13, 2007, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by *TL

You're right. They're not the best examples, given that the music and software industries are not analogous to the (often byzantine) systems used to finance, produce, and distribute motion pictures internationally.

How so? New Line's argument is that they have to use region coding, because they have deals with other publishers who want to exclusively publish the movie in those regions. So they want to use region coding to force you to buy from a specific vendor.

The music analogy is valid because music distributors have the same sorts of deals. Music has never had region locking, and yet foreign distributors have still prospered. Heck, iTunes, which tries to do region coding will STILL supply you music, tv shows and movies from out of your region, and so far, I haven't seen one upset movie, music, or tv company.

If the movie companies are going to argue that region coding is what keeps foreign distributors alive, and you eat it up... well... they'll taking you for a ride. Region coding has to be one of the most backwards DRM implementations ever done on a large scale.

starman · Sep 13, 2007, 11:02 PM

Nobody said region coding was a GOOD idea, but movies have ALWAYS had different distribution rules than music.

EDIT: You people seem to think this is something new.

And BTW: There's no DRM on CDs because at the time nobody in the world had a CD-ROM drive you could rip them with.

goMac · Sep 13, 2007, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Nobody said region coding was a GOOD idea, but movies have ALWAYS had different distribution rules than music.

Really? Did VHS have region coding? Laserdisc? I'm assuming the movie distribution market was complete chaos back in those days...

starman · 12:04 AM

Did you R-E-A-D what I wrote above?

You couldn't play an NTSC video in a PAL player. It was MUCH harder to do that back in the day, not only because of the difference in the formats but the power for the units. It was worse with SECAM. Videotape had its own region-type "coding" by having different standards in different areas.

Laserdisc had the same problems.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the video formats had their own different refresh rates also which means that you either had to have a TV that matched, or something that allowed you to convert it to the video in your country. There was no "region-free" player like there is for DVD.

And just as a side note: films themselves, to this day, have different distributions. Star Wars was delayed 6 months in Australia because Fox wanted it to be released during THEIR summer.

You've just been schooled.

Footprints by Dish Size - Global Video Standard Map , PAL, NTSC, SECAM Standards List by Country, Example Principal Frequency Format Layouts, North American/International Television Frequencies/Channels

goMac · Sep 14, 2007, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by starman

Did you R-E-A-D what I wrote above?

You couldn't play an NTSC video in a PAL player. It was MUCH harder to do that back in the day, not only because of the difference in the formats but the power for the units. It was worse with SECAM. Videotape had its own region-type "coding" by having different standards in different areas.

Laserdisc had the same problems.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the video formats had their own different refresh rates also which means that you either had to have a TV that matched, or something that allowed you to convert it to the video in your country. There was no "region-free" player like there is for DVD.

And just as a side note: films themselves, to this day, have different distributions. Star Wars was delayed 6 months in Australia because Fox wanted it to be released during THEIR summer.

You've just been schooled.

Footprints by Dish Size - Global Video Standard Map , PAL, NTSC, SECAM Standards List by Country, Example Principal Frequency Format Layouts, North American/International Television Frequencies/Channels

And as already mentioned, NTSC and PAL are no longer an issue. So why are region codes still around?

PaperNotes · Sep 14, 2007, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I was certain he was being sarcastic. He can't be serious is he? Seriously?!?!

That two of you don't take it seriously proves your little knowledge of how many times those studios have changed hands and been bought and sold by people not that interested in film. It also goes to show how little you have seen of how much Russia and China are buying into western companies. Lenovo was acquired by the Chinese. Chelsea Football Club was bought by a Russian with a dubious history of how he became a billionaire. London has so much Russian wealth flowing into it that the UK government couldn't do much when the Russians decided to kill and leave Polonium 210 all over public places. The Bush's do business with the Bin Ladins and the Pakistanis. Americans took it up the ass on because of that. The Pakistani ISI gets away with supporting any terrorists they want. The US won't do **** about it.

You should be supporting studios, anti-piracy, region coding etc because they are running out of people who could take over the running of these companies. If they fail to make money their next purchasers could come out of Russia, China or who knows where. The more western business is tied to businessmen and regimes with histories of criminality, mafia and human rights abuses, the more we'll pay for it. We must protect our businesses and keep them in our hands. The only way that's going to happen is supporting decisions and products that keep them profitable.

It is a leap to think region coding could have something to do with global civility and security, but there you have it.

jokell82 · Sep 14, 2007, 04:27 AM

The funny thing is that you think the movie studios still care about making movies and aren't simply about making money.

And with a record-setting box office this summer, I think those companies will be just fine.

jokell82 · Sep 14, 2007, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by starman

And again, people show that they'd rather go off on a tangent than directly tackle the question.

_I_ didn't bring up ripping CDs, pooka did.

True, but you linked it to piracy with regards to region codes that I brought up, which makes no sense. And then you asked why they were the same... Uh, they're not, and no one said they were.

Montezuma58 · Sep 14, 2007, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by PaperNotes

You should be supporting studios, anti-piracy, region coding etc because they are running out of people who could take over the running of these companies.

Region coding isn't necessary for the survival of western civilization. Region coding is simply the studios trying to perpetuate a business model that relied on limitations intrinsic with old technology. It is much the same as the National Association of Broadcasters fighting to nix delivery of out of market affiliates over satellite and cable. That has only served to add huge expense and loss of quality for satellite providers. Studios attempting to force customers to buy things on terms which the market doesn't demand will only hurt the studios.

starman · Sep 14, 2007, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

True, but you linked it to piracy with regards to region codes that I brought up, which makes no sense. And then you asked why they were the same... Uh, they're not, and no one said they were.

pooka did.

jokell82 · Sep 14, 2007, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Montezuma58

Region coding isn't necessary for the survival of western civilization. Region coding is simply the studios trying to perpetuate a business model that relied on limitations intrinsic with old technology. It is much the same as the National Association of Broadcasters fighting to nix delivery of out of market affiliates over satellite and cable. That has only served to add huge expense and loss of quality for satellite providers. Studios attempting to force customers to buy things on terms which the market doesn't demand will only hurt the studios.

Why do you want the movie industry to go bankrupt and be bought out by Russians and the Chinese?????

starman · Sep 14, 2007, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Montezuma58

Region coding isn't necessary for the survival of western civilization. Region coding is simply the studios trying to perpetuate a business model that relied on limitations intrinsic with old technology. It is much the same as the National Association of Broadcasters fighting to nix delivery of out of market affiliates over satellite and cable. That has only served to add huge expense and loss of quality for satellite providers. Studios attempting to force customers to buy things on terms which the market doesn't demand will only hurt the studios.

It hasn't hurt DVD sales.