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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning?

View Poll Results: Which do you have? (Choose only ONE. Includes stand-alones and game consoles.)
Poll Options:
HD DVD 34 votes (17.09%)
Blu-ray 87 votes (43.72%)
Both 14 votes (7.04%)
Neither 70 votes (35.18%)
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll
Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning? (Page 67)
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Sep 23, 2007, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
Why couldn't you? But in any case, I imagine that by the time it would become an issue, the cost of players would be so low that this would be a non-issue.
I guess it may be *technically* possible, but who are we kidding? Sony would never make an external HD DVD drive for the PS3.

And you're right about standalone costs.

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Sep 23, 2007, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
I guess it may be *technically* possible, but who are we kidding? Sony would never make an external HD DVD drive for the PS3.
With the life-spam of current video-game systems maybe not, but as for PS4 you never know…



     
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Sep 23, 2007, 04:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Windows goes without saying of course - regardless of it's objective qualities. Where Microsoft succeeds in quality is actually their hardware. My Intellimouse is going strong on it's seventh year now.
I guess we bought ours at the same time then. Mine still works great too
     
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Sep 23, 2007, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by angelmb View Post
With the life-spam of current video-game systems maybe not, but as for PS4 you never know…

Oh no I think the scenario where Sony makes an HD DVD player is *possible*, but not for the PS3.

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Sep 23, 2007, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I guess we bought ours at the same time then. Mine still works great too
I have an original IntelliMouse Explorer that still works great. It's probably 10 years old now.

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Sep 23, 2007, 07:21 PM
 
Yeah.. Didn't MS buy out a mouse making company?
     
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Sep 23, 2007, 08:09 PM
 
The point is...the optical media era is ending, just like the magnetic tape era ended. Very soon (before the end of the decade hopefully) there will be no need for fragile disks anymore. Solid state and digital online delivery is the way of the future™.

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Sep 23, 2007, 08:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
The point is...the optical media era is ending, just like the magnetic tape era ended. Very soon (before the end of the decade hopefully) there will be no need for fragile disks anymore. Solid state and digital online delivery is the way of the future™.
You think hard discs will be replaced by solid state by the end of the decade? That's just over 2 years from now.

I agree that digital delivery will eventually be the standard, but not until solid state storage completely replaces hard disc drives. I don't see that happening for at least another 10 years.

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Sep 23, 2007, 08:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
You think hard discs will be replaced by solid state by the end of the decade? That's just over 2 years from now.
Uh no. What gave you that impression? I said optical media will be replaced by solid state (and more to the point digital online delivery to hard drives). Hard drives will at some point eventually be replaced by solid state, but that's way forward in the future.
( Last edited by - - e r i k - -; Sep 23, 2007 at 09:38 PM. )

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Sep 23, 2007, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
The point is...the optical media era is ending, just like the magnetic tape era ended. Very soon (before the end of the decade hopefully) there will be no need for fragile disks anymore. Solid state and digital online delivery is the way of the future™.
Yep, this is probably the last optical disc battle.
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Sep 23, 2007, 09:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Uh no. What gave you that impression? I said optical media will be replaced by solid state (and more to the point digital online delivery to hard drives. Hard drives will at some point eventually be replaced by solid state, but that's way forward in the future.
Your last line when you mentioned solid state...

But yeah, I'm not sure digital downloads will be the standard until that happens. My parents have had to replace their DVRs 5 times with the cable company all due to hard drive failures. If they had held all their *purchased* media they'd be pretty pissed.

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Sep 23, 2007, 09:39 PM
 
That's the way of hard drives unfortunately. The only certainty is that they will fail - so you better keep backups of your purchases.

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Sep 23, 2007, 11:27 PM
 
If only there were some way to have a hard copy of your movies. Perhaps on a disc of some sort... No, that's just crazy talk.
     
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Sep 23, 2007, 11:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
If only there were some way to have a hard copy of your movies. Perhaps on a disc of some sort... No, that's just crazy talk.
Well, that's where we are hoping solid state will go. Or even on your iPod. Multiple movies on a portable medium? Wow. That's crazy talk!

Optical disks are still in use because they are cheap to manufacture. As a technology it's at the end of the line. It's a fragile, unreliable medium and that worsens the higher the capacity is pushed.

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Sep 24, 2007, 12:34 AM
 
Solid state may be the future, but it's not the near future. I think there's plenty of time left before the technology matures for a final disc-based medium to have a full lifespan.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 12:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
Solid state may be the future, but it's not the near future. I think there's plenty of time left before the technology matures for a final disc-based medium to have a full lifespan.
Why does it necessarily have to be disk based at all? 720p streaming is here now. Even if video was stored on a disk, and the disk failed, it wouldn't be too much trouble to redownload it. XBox Live let's you redownload 720p video, and it's very good quality with 5.1 audio.

I think the digital distribution era is much closer than people think, and the format war is just helping the digital distribution camp.
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Sep 24, 2007, 04:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
Solid state may be the future, but it's not the near future. I think there's plenty of time left before the technology matures for a final disc-based medium to have a full lifespan.
I agree. Most important, for me, I prefer to not have a leash, by the company, with my purchases. A hard-drive is not reliable enough for me to want to back up a massive movie collection on long term. Nor do I care to have to re-download it all in a crash.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
The point is...the optical media era is ending, just like the magnetic tape era ended. Very soon (before the end of the decade hopefully) there will be no need for fragile disks anymore. Solid state and digital online delivery is the way of the future™.
Agreed, and this is basically what I said as well. This HD-DVD and BlueRay stuff are just distractions till then. But I wouldn't call such happening happening so soon.
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
I think the digital distribution era is much closer than people think, and the format war is just helping the digital distribution camp.
Agreed. Either way, I don't see BlueRay going anywhere.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Well, that's where we are hoping solid state will go. Or even on your iPod. Multiple movies on a portable medium? Wow. That's crazy talk!

Optical disks are still in use because they are cheap to manufacture. As a technology it's at the end of the line. It's a fragile, unreliable medium and that worsens the higher the capacity is pushed.
Fragile and unreliable? I have CDs that are 21 years old that still work.

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Sep 24, 2007, 09:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
I don't understand why the Bluray camp is whining about [indie distributors staying out of hi-def b/c of the format war]. The HD-DVD camp was perfectly willing to integrate the formats and the Bluray camp wouldn't go for it. God forbid they allow iHD on their precious Bluray discs.
Sorry, think you got it backward. BDA held out the final olive branch, which the HD promo group rebuffed because they thought it would piss off the replicators it had lined up to stamp HD DVDs when Toshiba told them they were going to have to retrofit for Blu instead.

Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
The only people I see pushing for blue-ray, are people that have a zealous attachment to sony, or a product of theirs, and those that would benefit from such push.
Then Blu-ray just banked the format war altogether. I think you'll find if you venture out of tech-oriented boards like these, Sony has an excellent reputation for consumer products in the general population. (Whether that reputation is warranted or unwarranted is immaterial.) People have paid a premium for Sony for years.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
And since neither high-def format has got a foothold so far, I suspect we'll be far into the digital content delivery phase of high-def before either does.
I remain skeptical that online delivery is the (near)future until someone shows me that Blu-ray/HD DVD-quality audio/video is possible for an 85,000 title catalog like we have on DVD.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 10:07 AM
 
We probably won't see widespread online digital delivery in BluRay/HD-DVD quality for some years yet. That does not mean it's not coming though. If this format war was sorted out a couple of years ago instead of lingering on, either winning format would have been able carve out the next VHS/DVD niche. But as it stands with this slow stalemate, both formats are pegged for a MiniDisc-type footnote as an intermediate in the format history.

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Sep 24, 2007, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Fragile and unreliable? I have CDs that are 21 years old that still work.
Good for you. Early CDs have the longest life-expectancy, albeit it pretty short compared to earlier formats like magnetic tape or vinyl records even. Other optical media, and especially the kind you burn yourself has considerably less lifespan. The more data you press on to one, the less longevity you can expect, and the more susceptible to data failure from scratches and dust it becomes.

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Sep 24, 2007, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
The point is...the optical media era is ending, just like the magnetic tape era ended. Very soon (before the end of the decade hopefully) there will be no need for fragile disks anymore. Solid state and digital online delivery is the way of the future™.
Digital online delivery for high quality HD is a long way off. Personally, I'd rather go to the rental shop and rent an HD DVD for $3 than try to download 25 GB. Xbox Live HD doesn't count. It's low quality HD.

I expect to be buying/renting optical discs until 2015 or later.


Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Good for you. Early CDs have the longest life-expectancy, albeit it pretty short compared to earlier formats like magnetic tape or vinyl records even.
Huh? Magnetic tape is very problematic. Many VHS tapes become unreadable just with storage. I have no problems with any my CDs, even the ones that are over 20 years old. My VHS tapes are a completely different story.

As for vinyl, I'm always afraid to actually play the damn things, for fear of scratching the discs. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find even a vinyl fanatic that claims they are more robust against damage than CDs.

Actually, the only discs I play these days are 78s that I find at the antique store, on my gramophone. These discs are all scratched to hell, but that means I'm not afraid to scratch them even more, and it just adds to their old fashioned charm.




Other optical media, and especially the kind you burn yourself has considerably less lifespan. The more data you press on to one, the less longevity you can expect, and the more susceptible to data failure from scratches and dust it becomes.
Perhaps self-recorded media is not as good, but I find it often relates directly to the cost of the media. My good quality CD-R and DVD-R discs burned from a very long time ago all work fine. The cheapo noname media has numerous problems however.

In fact, for optical recordable media I always tell people to stay away from cheap media. Nobody ever listens, and then complain to me when they find out their new computer can't read those cheap discs 1 year later.

When DVD-R was not that popular, I used to pay $$$ for Mitsui and Apple media. Everyone thought I was nuts for spending that kind of coin on media. Guess what? All those DVD-Rs still work fine today.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Digital online delivery for high quality HD is a long way off. Personally, I'd rather go to the rental shop and rent an HD DVD for $3 than try to download 25 GB.
I doubt you are alone.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by *TL View Post
I doubt you are alone.
He's not. Not to mention if I want to bring movies over to a friends to have a movie night, I'd rather bring the movie, not the entire player.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 07:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by exca1ibur View Post
He's not. Not to mention if I want to bring movies over to a friends to have a movie night, I'd rather bring the movie, not the entire player.
Sure, but if you're carrying a device like an iPod...
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Sep 24, 2007, 08:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Sure, but if you're carrying a device like an iPod...
The iPod is standard def, and even by standard def.... errr... standards... it's low quality.

We're talking about high quality hi-def (noting that 6 GB Xbox Live WMV downloads doesn't qualify as high quality hi-def).
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 08:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
The iPod is standard def, and even by standard def.... errr... standards... it's low quality.

We're talking about high quality hi-def (noting that 6 GB Xbox Live WMV downloads doesn't qualify as high quality hi-def).
Exactly.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 10:01 PM
 
He was not talking about the iPod as is. He was talking about a device like an iPod.

If I wanted to bring movies over to a friend, how great would it be to carry your entire movie collection over instead of just one or two?

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Sep 25, 2007, 01:10 AM
 
I can certainly understand the appeal of something like that. That's why I have literally thousands of movies and TV shows (almost all ripped from DVDs) in my iTunes library. I can stream them to other computers or my iPhone, or sync them with iPods or an iPhone. But they're so far from Blu-ray quality that it's not even funny. Not to mention the fact that they are WAY more time consuming to backup and manage than something that is self-contained like a disc. I don't think the technology is there now, and it won't be (for the majority of Americans, anyway) for quite some time. Downloading and storing very high quality movies takes a huge amount of storage. Streaming them takes a MUCH faster connection than any normal person will have in the near future.

It's possible that people will decide that 720p quality such as that offered by Xbox Live is good enough and that the convenience outweighs the quality issues (this is precisely what happened with digital audio downloads). But there are still a lot of problems to be solved before even that becomes a reality. DRM is one of the big ones. People get up in arms about DRM on Blu-ray, but at least you have control of the physical disc. You can lend it to someone or sell it if you choose. Something like an Xbox Live or iTunes download is tied to one account.

Don't get me wrong. I can envision a future where you might have instant access to every movie ever made, streamed to you at super-fast speeds. But there are simply too many problems to overcome to realistically see that happening in the next 10 years, barring some major technological breakthroughs.
     
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Sep 25, 2007, 01:15 AM
 
Well. For the vast majority, as you have rightly pointed out with digital music, convenience trumps quality every time.

And honestly, unless it's some major prize possession movie of mine, it has started to do for me too. This does apply more to TV than movies, but yes, I prefer convenience over quality in most cases.

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Sep 25, 2007, 01:49 AM
 
Finally today, I'd like to say a few words of appeal to the HD-DVD supporting studios. And no, this is not what some of you think. I've said many times that I like the HD-DVD format, despite the fact that I prefer Blu-ray. And believe it or not, it's true. Except for one thing: I absolutely HATE the DVD/HD-DVD Combo format. I hate it with a passion. Why? Well... let's put it this way. I've kept a bit of a running tally. In the last two months, I've checked out 23 Combo titles. You know how many actually worked, playing smoothly all the way through? Just 9. In the other 14 cases, I'd be watching the movie and about halfway through it just freezes, stutters a little bit and then flashes an error code. What's happening, it seems, is that in the replication stage, the bonding layer between the DVD and HD-DVD halves is being applied too thickly. So many HD-DVD players choke on the resulting Combo disc. This is the same problem a lot of people had with Universal's The Good Shepherd and Children of Men Combo discs a few months ago. Clearly, the problem STILL hasn't been resolved. I know it's not just my player, because not only have I updated the firmware and still had problems, the same discs crash on other players I've tried, as well as the HD-DVD drive on my new PC. And I get regular complaints from readers who are experiencing the same issue.

This is a HUGE problem, folks. Nearly every new film these studios are releasing is on a Combo disc. If less than half of them are working properly for me, just how big is this problem market-wide? The most recent problem I've had: Warner's We Are Marshall, just last night. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to be two-thirds of the way into a movie only to have it crash on you? Well... yeah, I suppose some of you do. How are the studios managing the customer service problem here? I've got so many non-working Combo discs I wouldn't even know where to start trying to exchange them all. So this is my appeal to the HD-DVD supporting studios: PLEASE... either fix this problem with the Combo discs, or abandon the Combo format altogether and just release your titles on regular HD-DVD discs. It might be a good idea for the HD-DVD Promotion Group to create a single phone number or e-mail address to act as a clearing house for this, where people with defective discs can get them easily exchanged. Let's have an end to this problem once and for all."

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Sep 25, 2007, 03:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Well. For the vast majority, as you have rightly pointed out with digital music, convenience trumps quality every time.

And honestly, unless it's some major prize possession movie of mine, it has started to do for me too. This does apply more to TV than movies, but yes, I prefer convenience over quality in most cases.
Exactly.

I know there has been a lot of ragging on the XBox Live service, but honestly, those downloads are high enough quality for a vast majority of consumers. And yes, the iPod won't play back at 720p, but devices are starting to support the iPod (such as, again, the XBox) as a disk source. The iPod itself doesn't need to output at 720p, you just need to plug into a device that will read from your device and output at 720p.

I don't think digital downloads will completely replace optical media this round. The videophiles will still use Bluray/HD-DVD, much like videophiles used Laserdisc in the VHS era. But for your average person, digital distribution is just fine.
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Sep 25, 2007, 06:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by *TL View Post
Then Blu-ray just banked the format war altogether. I think you'll find if you venture out of tech-oriented boards like these, Sony has an excellent reputation for consumer products in the general population. (Whether that reputation is warranted or unwarranted is immaterial.) People have paid a premium for Sony for years.
They didn't when the BetaMax came out. They choose VHS. Why? The players were cheaper, they had more to choose from, and the media was cheaper too. That was why VHS won out. The same thing is happening with HD over Blueray sales. The format that will win, is the format that is in most average households.
     
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Sep 25, 2007, 06:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
I don't think digital downloads will completely replace optical media this round. The videophiles will still use Bluray/HD-DVD, much like videophiles used Laserdisc in the VHS era. But for your average person, digital distribution is just fine.
Oh come on, the laserdisc went out when VHS took over. Sure there was a handful of people that still wouldn't let it go... but there was no large market. And they were hard to find.
     
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Sep 25, 2007, 06:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Finally today, ... once and for all."

The Digital Bits - Celebrating Film in the Digital Age
What is it with all of your copy and pasting in this thread? Do you not have an opinion on what you are linking to?

FWIW, when you copy and paste from an article, it's proper etiquette to put [quote][/ quote] tags around the text so we know you are quoting an article and not plagiarizing.
     
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Sep 25, 2007, 07:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
What is it with all of your copy and pasting in this thread? Do you not have an opinion on what you are linking to?

FWIW, when you copy and paste from an article, it's proper etiquette to put tags around the text so we know you are quoting an article and not plagiarizing.
He isn't plagiarizing. He came up with this stuff himself! Watch in 2 years it will come true, he will then bump up this thread saying he got it right all along

BTW SWG is known to be a cut and paste post runner. Nothing new.
     
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Sep 25, 2007, 07:02 AM
 
Finally finished my HD DVDs of Heroes Season 1. The finale wasn't that bad. I thought the whole series was excellent, but the finale was merely OK.

I wasn't so impressed by the Heroes Season 2 premiere though.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
There is one basic rule in this Blu-ray/HD DVD war.

If you quote TheDigitalBits.com as a real source in your post, you lose all credibility for said post.
     
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Sep 25, 2007, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
They didn't when the BetaMax came out. They choose VHS. Why? The players were cheaper, they had more to choose from, and the media was cheaper too. That was why VHS won out. The same thing is happening with HD over Blueray sales.
Nice theory, but so far it isn't based in reality. Despite its higher price, Blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD by a considerable margin. How do you explain that?

The format that will win, is the format that is in most average households.
Well duh.

I guess you could argue that BR has already won, what with the PS3 and all.
     
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Sep 25, 2007, 11:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by icruise View Post
Nice theory, but so far it isn't based in reality. Despite its higher price, Blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD by a considerable margin. How do you explain that?
Not anymore. IIRC, the past 3 or 4 weeks has only been a 1.5:1 lead by Blu-Ray.

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Sep 25, 2007, 12:10 PM
 
One other thing about VHS is that they had longer record times. If you want to do a direct comparison, BR has more space on it.

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Sep 25, 2007, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Not anymore. IIRC, the past 3 or 4 weeks has only been a 1.5:1 lead by Blu-Ray.
That sounds like a considerable lead to me.


Or you the guy who used to play on the soccer team that usually lost 15 to 0, but when when you lose a game by only 8 points you celebrate that with a victory party?
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Sep 25, 2007, 01:01 PM
 
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Sep 25, 2007, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
They didn't when the BetaMax came out. They choose VHS. Why? The players were cheaper, they had more to choose from, and the media was cheaper too. That was why VHS won out. The same thing is happening with HD over Blueray sales. The format that will win, is the format that is in most average households.
And since 1982, how many people own Sony TVs, walkmen, VCRs, DVD players, laptops, PS2s, etc.? Sony is a trusted brand in the general population, so if the format war plays out by brand loyalty, as you suggest, Toshiba should be worried.

Originally Posted by Eug View Post
There is one basic rule in this Blu-ray/HD DVD war.

If you quote TheDigitalBits.com as a real source in your post, you lose all credibility for said post.
Translation: if you quote the Digital Bits, HD partisans won't listen because of a reflexive animosity to the guy who, well, calls up the people at studios and asks them what's going on instead of speculating on internet boards, because he prefers the rival format.
     
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Sep 25, 2007, 01:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Not anymore. IIRC, the past 3 or 4 weeks has only been a 1.5:1 lead by Blu-Ray.
Due to Heroes, and no big Bluray exclusives in that timeframe. Has anyone even heard of any sales numbers on this? It was a big selling point for them yet we haven't seen any hype about it. I figured we'd get some numbers being its an exclusive. I'm sure they will do it for Transformers, though.
     
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Sep 25, 2007, 01:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by climber View Post
That sounds like a considerable lead to me.


Or you the guy who used to play on the soccer team that usually lost 15 to 0, but when when you lose a game by only 8 points you celebrate that with a victory party?
It's not a considerable lead at all. It's a marginal lead at best.

What's soccer?

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Sep 25, 2007, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by exca1ibur View Post
Due to Heroes, and no big Bluray exclusives in that timeframe. Has anyone even heard of any sales numbers on this? It was a big selling point for them yet we haven't seen any hype about it. I figured we'd get some numbers being its an exclusive. I'm sure they will do it for Transformers, though.
It's due to a lot of things, but the trend started the week before Heroes came out. This week HD DVD has the big exclusive again with Knocked Up (which I'm picking up today after work).

And right now no one is releasing any hard data for sales. Sucks.

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Sep 25, 2007, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
If you quote TheDigitalBits.com as a real source in your post, you lose all credibility for said post.
Really? Weird. What do the rules say considering you introduced me to that site?
Are you saying combo disks do not have these problems and he is making it all up or an exception?

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Sep 25, 2007, 04:06 PM
 
I have yet to have a single issue with a combo disc. I wouldn't say he's making it up, but I'd guess he has a faulty player if he has that many issues.

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Sep 25, 2007, 05:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
One other thing about VHS is that they had longer record times. If you want to do a direct comparison, BR has more space on it.
Did you get the Philips-Grundig Video2000 systems in the USA?, now that was cool, the devices were huge, the media was huge, and the beneficts were huge… if all you wanted was a long record time, V2000 was awesome… it was 80's dual layer, you can record both sides of the media… then, and I am being honest, (I had SONY's Beta, JVC VHS and those Grundig V2000), the V2000 still (image pause) function put VHS and Beta to shame, it was just like a true picture, not the slight image flicker like used to happen with Beta, let alone VHS… and everyone knows how cool to pause an image now and them made you

What I think most people wouldn't like is High Definition going towards a console wars way of life… I mean, this week I outsold you cause I got this awesome movie as exclusive, next week you are going to outsell me cause that TV show is gonna be an exclusive under your umbrella… now that would implicit we need a 3rd format… we need V2000 back !!

Do you know what's a shame?, I am looking for an used Beta since my SONYs died and people is asking over 200€ for it !!
     
 
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