Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

*TL · Oct 4, 2007, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

This is a prime example of why it's a bad idea to build a format while it's already on the market. It's like building a car while you're driving it. Again, HD-DVD's decision to wait to release until they finished the format is looking like the smart choice.

I don't disagree with you. However, I do accept that market forces made doing so impossible.

Eug · Oct 5, 2007, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

OK, another poster has confirmed the Canadian pricing:

A3: $349
A30: $449
A35: $549
XA2: $799

However, she also says that the machines will include 2 HD DVDs in the box (300 and Bourne Identity) and a mail-in deal for 5 free movies. I haven't seen verification of this part, but she says the machines won't be available for a couple of weeks yet in Canada, so I guess it makes sense we won't see the Canadian free movie deal advertised just yet.

I got the A20 for $349, but I think I'll keep that. I'd rather have a player for $100 cheaper than those free movies.

I'm taking back the A20... cuz my wish was granted, and then some.

The HD-A2 (1080i model) is CAD$199.99 RIGHT NOW at Future Shop, with three free movies in the box. So I ordered one.

Canadians, you'd better act quick if you're interested, cuz about 25 sold in the 15 minutes I was checking out the site, and they now have less than 30 left.

Eug · Oct 5, 2007, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

I'm taking back the A20... cuz my wish was granted, and then some.

The HD-A2 (1080i model) is CAD$199.99 RIGHT NOW at Future Shop, with three free movies in the box. So I ordered one.

Canadians, you'd better act quick if you're interested, cuz about 25 sold in the 15 minutes I was checking out the site, and they now have less than 30 left.

The entire batch of 86 online sold in about half an hour. (I don't know many more were sold in stores.)

P.S. DVD Forum approves 51GB HD DVD

A working group within the DVD Forum has approved the specification for a triple-layer 51GB HD DVD, confirmed a spokesperson for the North American HD DVD Promotion Group, opening the door for the format to be competitive with Blu-ray Disc’s highest-capacity 50GB disc.

Replicators can now start producing 51GB HD DVD discs, which include three layers holding 17GB capacity each. Production should drive manufacturers to begin testing how existing HD DVD players and drives can playback such the new discs.

So, we now find out if the DVD Forum and Toshiba has screwed us early generation hardware purchasers like Blu-ray has.

jokell82 · Oct 5, 2007, 08:23 AM

I have a feeling they wouldn't be releasing this if it wasn't compatible with all models.

Eug · Oct 9, 2007, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

I'm taking back the A20... cuz my wish was granted, and then some.

The HD-A2 (1080i model) is CAD$199.99 RIGHT NOW at Future Shop, with three free movies in the box. So I ordered one.

Canadians, you'd better act quick if you're interested, cuz about 25 sold in the 15 minutes I was checking out the site, and they now have less than 30 left.

The $199 HD DVD player arrived.

It had only 1 HD DVD in the box.

Future Shop customer service is looking into it.

olePigeon · Oct 9, 2007, 04:19 PM

Everyone knows Laserdisc is gonna win.

analogue SPRINKLES · Oct 15, 2007, 12:29 PM

HD-DVD almost had me as I really really liked transformers and then I read this:

"Indeed, I had the opportunity to attend a special 'Transformers' media event with Paramount late last week, and the question was asked almost immediately -- why no Dolby TrueHD or uncompressed PCM? The studio's answer was that due to space limitations on the disc, the decision was made to limit the audio to Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround only (here at 1.5mbps). Unfortunately, this confirms the long-held theory that the 30Gb capacity of an HD-30 dual-layer HD DVD disc has forced studios to choose between offering a robust supplements package (as they've done here) and the very best in audio quality"

HD DVD Review: Transformers | High-Def Digest

I fall under I want to watch the movie in the best audio and video quality and extra's be dammed.

Eug · Oct 15, 2007, 01:02 PM

It's 1.5 Mbps DD+.

DTS is 1.5 Mbps, but is of moderate efficiency compression.
DD is 640 Kbps, and is of high efficiency compression.

DD+ on these discs is 1.5 Mbps, but with equal to or higher than DD efficiency. In fact, some of the compressionists prefer DD+ at 1.5 Mbps from a 24-bit source over uncompressed 16-bit LPCM. Yeah, it's always nice to have lossless, although I think of it more as a marketing tool than anything. That's why I was surprised when HD DVD required TrueHD support in all its players.

Oh and that review you linked gave the audio quality 5/5 stars.

Anyways, I'm picking up my copy of Transformers tomorrow...

goMac · Oct 15, 2007, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

It's 1.5 Mbps DD+.

DTS is 1.5 Mbps, but is of moderate efficiency compression.
DD is 640 Kbps, and is of high efficiency compression.

DD+ on these discs is 1.5 Mbps, but with equal to or higher than DD efficiency. In fact, some of the compressionists prefer DD+ at 1.5 Mbps from a 24-bit source over uncompressed 16-bit LPCM. Yeah, it's always nice to have lossless, although I think of it more as a marketing tool than anything. That's why I was surprised when HD DVD required TrueHD support in all its players.

Oh and that review you linked gave the audio quality 5/5 stars.

Anyways, I'm picking up my copy of Transformers tomorrow...

Don't let these facts get in the way of actual argument.

Even if lossless was needed, the upcoming 50 gig discs would provide more space. But I agree, lossless is mostly a marketing tool. Compared to high bit rate lossy there shouldn't be much of a difference at all.

analogue SPRINKLES · Oct 15, 2007, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Oh and that review you linked gave the audio quality 5/5 stars.

"Note that although I'm giving this audio mix five stars, that doesn't mean I agree with Paramount's decision to forgo high-res audio on this title. Without a TrueHD or PCM mix to compare this one to, there's no way of telling how much better such a track might have been, but based on the upgrade I've seen with other titles, I'm guessing a high-res mix could well have trounced this one. That's not to take anything away from this truly exceptional mix, but this is one case where I think you truly can improve upon perfection."

analogue SPRINKLES · Oct 15, 2007, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Anyways, I'm picking up my copy of Transformers tomorrow...

Wow. I remember you didn't even want to see it in theatres cuz you didn't care.

goMac · 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

"Note that although I'm giving this audio mix five stars, that doesn't mean I agree with Paramount's decision to forgo high-res audio on this title. Without a TrueHD or PCM mix to compare this one to, there's no way of telling how much better such a track might have been, but based on the upgrade I've seen with other titles, I'm guessing a high-res mix could well have trounced this one. That's not to take anything away from this truly exceptional mix, but this is one case where I think you truly can improve upon perfection."

Who cares? Yes, the audio can be better. But given that he can't stop talking about how awesome the audio in Transformers is, I think the audio in Transformers is more than good enough.

Just more sour grapes from the Bluray camp because of the "ZOMG no 50 gigs". I think Transformers is a great of example of not needing 50 gigs of disc space to have a truly great audio experience.

Not that it matters, given that HD-DVD now has 50 gig discs too.

Eug · Oct 15, 2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

"Note that although I'm giving this audio mix five stars, that doesn't mean I agree with Paramount's decision to forgo high-res audio on this title. Without a TrueHD or PCM mix to compare this one to, there's no way of telling how much better such a track might have been, but based on the upgrade I've seen with other titles, I'm guessing a high-res mix could well have trounced this one. That's not to take anything away from this truly exceptional mix, but this is one case where I think you truly can improve upon perfection."

Translated: "Yeah I think it's totally awesome, but the placebo effect of lossless would have made me think it's even totally awesomer."

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Wow. I remember you didn't even want to see it in theatres cuz you didn't care.

Yeah. I still have mixed feelings about getting it, considering the reviews are mixed.

However, it looks like it will be perfect to show off my new HD projector setup, and it's on sale tomorrow at Future Shop. (Neither AM nor I have seen it.) Not a great price at $29.99, but it's actually competitive with Amazon.com for a change.

Originally Posted by goMac

HD-DVD now has 50 gig discs too.

Well, not officially yet for the 1st and 2nd gen (or even 3rd gen) players. They say they're in testing mode right now. If it turns out 51 GB isn't compatible with all existing players, that would be majorly lame.

jokell82 · Oct 15, 2007, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

"Note that although I'm giving this audio mix five stars, that doesn't mean I agree with Paramount's decision to forgo high-res audio on this title. Without a TrueHD or PCM mix to compare this one to, there's no way of telling how much better such a track might have been, but based on the upgrade I've seen with other titles, I'm guessing a high-res mix could well have trounced this one. That's not to take anything away from this truly exceptional mix, but this is one case where I think you truly can improve upon perfection."

That doesn't make any sense. So it's a perfect 5/5 for audio but it could've been better? Well then, genius, it's not a 5/5 now is it? If it can even possibly get better you can't give it a perfect score. There's no room to move up from perfection.

Reviewers are weird...

icruise · Oct 15, 2007, 04:12 PM

So you think that 5/5 means absolutely perfect with nothing that could be improved whatsoever? If that were the case, *nothing* would ever get a 5-star rating. If we were talking about a system that scores out of 100 and they gave a perfect 100, you might have a point, but a 5 or 4 star rating system is hardly that precise.

jokell82 · Oct 15, 2007, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

So you think that 5/5 means absolutely perfect with nothing that could be improved whatsoever? If that were the case, *nothing* would ever get a 5-star rating. If we were talking about a system that scores out of 100 and they gave a perfect 100, you might have a point, but a 5 or 4 star rating system is hardly that precise.

In context, yes. If the reviewer thinks the audio cannot be better than presented, it should be given a 5/5. But if they think there is room for improvement, which this reviewer obviously thinks there is, how can you score a 5/5? There is no room to improve with that score. Would lossless have been a 6/5? Or a "stronger" 5/5? That wouldn't make any sense...