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analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 14, 2007, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

I don't know about that, especially if the 51 gig discs never become commonly used. This issue of having to update the BR player software every few months is getting old. They need to finalize the standard and stick to it for a while.

Problem is HD users have to worry that in the future their players might not be able to play 51 gig disks at all.

BR users just miss out on some stupid web features anyway and a ROM update is hardly a major inconvenience.

And I sure hope this isn't true:
Battlestar Galactica: Season 1 HD DVD arriving sans quality? - Engadget HD

jokell82 · Dec 14, 2007, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

I don't know about that, especially if the 51 gig discs never become commonly used. This issue of having to update the BR player software every few months is getting old. They need to finalize the standard and stick to it for a while.

You can't upgrade software to add an internet connection. The only BD player out there right now that can possibly use this new feature would be the PS3, and only after an update.

That is the problem with not having a finalized spec.

jokell82 · Dec 14, 2007, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Problem is HD users have to worry that in the future their players might not be able to play 51 gig disks at all.

BR users just miss out on some stupid web features anyway and a ROM update is hardly a major inconvenience.

And I sure hope this isn't true:
Battlestar Galactica: Season 1 HD DVD arriving sans quality? - Engadget HD

If current HD players can't play the triple layer discs I can't imagine they would ever be used. From a business standpoint it simply wouldn't make sense.

And I have the set and my discs are scratched, but I haven't had any issues playing them. If they issue a recall I'll send them back, but for now I'm happy. And I haven't noticed any audio/video issues, other than the grain that is all over the show (but that seems to be the style, not a production issue). I've seen some people knock the quality but I disagree.

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 14, 2007, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

And I haven't noticed any audio/video issues, other than the grain that is all over the show (but that seems to be the style, not a production issue). I've seen some people knock the quality but I disagree.

Not so sure about the grain. I remember seeing it on HD as a TV broadcast and there wasn't much or any grain at all. The DVD's all have grain but people always complained about the quality of them.

I also mentioned how the Razor DVD also has no grain in it and is rather smooth looking.

So why would the HD-DVD's look grainy?

icruise · Dec 14, 2007, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

You can't upgrade software to add an internet connection. The only BD player out there right now that can possibly use this new feature would be the PS3, and only after an update.

That is the problem with not having a finalized spec.

Can't current players be updated by burning a CD on your computer?

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 14, 2007, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

You can't upgrade software to add an internet connection. The only BD player out there right now that can possibly use this new feature would be the PS3, and only after an update.

That is the problem with not having a finalized spec.

That's the plus that most BR users are PS3 owners and not stand along crew.

I'm still positive 90% of people who watch these movies can give a rats ass about these silly extras.

goMac · Dec 14, 2007, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Can't current players be updated by burning a CD on your computer?

No, 1.1 requires a hardware upgrade for dual video stream support. The PS3 is the only one that can get a software update because it already has the extra hardware power to spare.

(FYI, 1.1 is called the "Final Standard Profile" by the Bluray committee. In other words, anyone with a 1.0 player is basically a beta tester.)

goMac · Dec 14, 2007, 01:26 PM

Pirates completely demolished all other titles this week, leading to Bluray's biggest win (after last week's increase in HD-DVD sales):
Nielsen VideoScan High-Def market share for week ending December 9th, 2007 - Engadget HD

This might seem significant for Warner, but if you look at the numbers, it wasn't Bluray doing that much better overall, it was just Pirates doing far better than everyone else.

Edit:
Speaking of that, and following up to a previous rumor, Warner has said that the Warner going Bluray only rumor is not true:
Warner's Noonan denies Blu-ray exclusive, which is nice - Engadget HD

Eug · Dec 14, 2007, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

No, 1.1 requires a hardware upgrade for dual video stream support. The PS3 is the only one that can get a software update because it already has the extra hardware power to spare.

(FYI, 1.1 is called the "Final Standard Profile" by the Bluray committee. In other words, anyone with a 1.0 player is basically a beta tester.)

IIRC, the Samsung hybrid HD DVD / Blu-ray player can also be updated to BR Profile 1.1. More importantly though, the cheaper BD-only version cannot.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I'm still positive 90% of people who watch these movies can give a rats ass about these silly extras.

Then you would be wrong. According to Universal's VP, the average Canadian watches about 46 minutes of extras on DVDs, even if the DVD is rented.

Both Universal and Warner told us that DVD extras are significant selling point, so that for some titles if they release a movie with few extras and the exact same movie on the same day with a special edition version with tons of extras, the latter will often sell almost as many as the bare bones version, even though the special edition version costs a lot more. Furthermore, both studios told us that extras are an excellent weapon against piracy, because people want extras and pirates don't torrent the extras.

goMac · Dec 14, 2007, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

IIRC, the Samsung hybrid HD DVD / Blu-ray player can also be updated to BR Profile 1.1. More importantly though, the cheaper BD-only version cannot.

Ah, good point. The Samsung hybrid would be able to be updated because it has to have the dual stream hardware for the HD-DVD side.

See, now no one can say that the HD-DVD camp never did anything to help out the Bluray camp.

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 14, 2007, 01:55 PM

Ok so HD-DVD has recently had super cheap assed player with 20 free Movies AND Paramount goes exclusive and Transformers sells like hotcakes.

The result?

Nielsen VideoScan High-Def market share for week ending December 9th, 2007 - Engadget HD
Ok so what is the next saving grace for HD as all the others are working so well.

jokell82 · Dec 14, 2007, 02:09 PM

Not all of that happened last week - that's just the Pirates numbers (as Eug mentioned above).

jokell82 · Dec 14, 2007, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Not so sure about the grain. I remember seeing it on HD as a TV broadcast and there wasn't much or any grain at all. The DVD's all have grain but people always complained about the quality of them.

I also mentioned how the Razor DVD also has no grain in it and is rather smooth looking.

So why would the HD-DVD's look grainy?

The DVDs have grain because the grain is part of the show. I have not seen the Razor DVD so I cannot comment on it, but every review of the HD DVD disc mentions the grain being an aesthetic choice (including the article linked to in this thread). The show is supposed to be "dark and gritty" or something like that.

Kenneth · Dec 14, 2007, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

IIRC, the Samsung hybrid HD DVD / Blu-ray player can also be updated to BR Profile 1.1. More importantly though, the cheaper BD-only version cannot.

Then you would be wrong. According to Universal's VP, the average Canadian watches about 46 minutes of extras on DVDs, even if the DVD is rented.

Both Universal and Warner told us that DVD extras are significant selling point, so that for some titles if they release a movie with few extras and the exact same movie on the same day with a special edition version with tons of extras, the latter will often sell almost as many as the bare bones version, even though the special edition version costs a lot more. Furthermore, both studios told us that extras are an excellent weapon against piracy, because people want extras and pirates don't torrent the extras.

About the extra features, I rarely watched them. First, most of them are in poor quality (esp. on DVD). Some deleted scenes are worth watching tho.

goMac · Dec 14, 2007, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Ok so HD-DVD has recently had super cheap assed player with 20 free Movies AND Paramount goes exclusive and Transformers sells like hotcakes.

The only new movie last week was Pirates. HD-DVD didn't have anything. This week HD-DVD has Bourne Ultimatum and the HD-DVD version of Harry Potter.

Harry Potter is one that Warner will be watching.

Eug · Dec 14, 2007, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

The only new movie last week was Pirates.

And Super Bad.

Harry Potter is one that Warner will be watching.

I predict a sales ratio close to 2:1 BD:HD.

goMac · Dec 14, 2007, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

I predict a sales ratio close to 2:1 BD:HD.

I'm not so sure, I think it will be closer than that. Harry Potter seems like the movie that people will be buying with their standalone HD-DVD players for Christmas.

Eug · Dec 14, 2007, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I'm not so sure, I think it will be closer than that. Harry Potter seems like the movie that people will be buying with their standalone HD-DVD players for Christmas.

Well, 1.5 : 1 is possible too, but I wouldn't count on it.

It won't be 3:1 though.

Eug · Dec 14, 2007, 11:57 PM

Some examples of extras on the Star Trek HD DVD (Video)

jokell82 · Dec 15, 2007, 08:11 AM

Wow, that looks pretty cool!

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 15, 2007, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I'm not so sure, I think it will be closer than that. Harry Potter seems like the movie that people will be buying with their standalone HD-DVD players for Christmas.

Why does harry potter scream stand alone HD-DVD to you?

goMac · Dec 15, 2007, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Why does harry potter scream stand alone HD-DVD to you?

Because Harry Potter is the hot family movie franchise, and most families seem to be buying standalones?

icruise · Dec 15, 2007, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Because Harry Potter is the hot family movie franchise, and most families seem to be buying standalones?

What do you base that on?

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 15, 2007, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Because Harry Potter is the hot family movie franchise, and most families seem to be buying standalones?

They way you talk about stand alone players you make it sound like you are some sort of elite club that somehow is saving money by the boatload and is getting a better experience for it.

Personally I think spending $200 on something that does NOTHING but play disks in this day in age is a rip off.

I am glad I don't have a stand alone player taking up an HDMI port and shelf space just to play a movie.

jokell82 · Dec 15, 2007, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

They way you talk about stand alone players you make it sound like you are some sort of elite club that somehow is saving money by the boatload and is getting a better experience for it.

Personally I think spending $200 on something that does NOTHING but play disks in this day in age is a rip off.

I am glad I don't have a stand alone player taking up an HDMI port and shelf space just to play a movie.

Considering how many standalone DVD players are out there you are in the *extreme* minority.

And it's "this day and age."

goMac · Dec 15, 2007, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

They way you talk about stand alone players you make it sound like you are some sort of elite club that somehow is saving money by the boatload and is getting a better experience for it.

Personally I think spending $200 on something that does NOTHING but play disks in this day in age is a rip off.

I am glad I don't have a stand alone player taking up an HDMI port and shelf space just to play a movie.

I know! I just don't understand why people continue to buy iMacs when they can have the full Mac Pro experience for only twice the cost more!

icruise · Dec 15, 2007, 05:14 PM

The better comparison would be someone buying an Apple TV instead of a Mac Mini for their home theater. After all, and iMac and a Mac Pro pretty much accomplish the same tasks. But in any case, you still haven't said why you think more families are buying standalones. I'll grant you that standalones are *going* to be the future of whichever HD format wins, but I would say that the PS3 has made it so that many more families are exposed to Blu-ray at this point.

goMac · Dec 15, 2007, 05:18 PM

Most people don't care about getting a machine that plays games. They don't want to pay $200 extra for functionality they won't use.

(Not to mention, the breakdown isn't nearly that simple. Buying a PS3 and playing games on it requires buying the games. It's not like for $200 extra you have a game machine. It's quite a significant investment past that to buy the games.)

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 17, 2007, 11:49 AM

Ok let see... 11 million PS3's SOLD by March of next year.
Sony: Sony Banking On Selling 11 Million PS3s By March 08

Lets assume only 50% of those PS3 owners every buy 1 BR disk... ouch to HD-DVD.

No doubt someone will show a survey that shows that only 2% of PS3 owners watch BR movies. Either way the sales of disks for the past 12 months would show otherwise.

icruise · Dec 17, 2007, 11:57 AM

I kind of doubt that anywhere near 50% of PS3 owners are actively buying BR movies, but still have such a large installed base is a huge advantage. It's much easier to get someone to buy a $20-$30 movie to play on equipment they already own than to get them to buy a $200 player and a movie.

exca1ibur · 09:41 PM

Seems Profile 1.1, DiVX, and VC-1, might come to the PS3 tomorrow. The UK just got an update.

PS3 Profile 1.1

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 17, 2007, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

I kind of doubt that anywhere near 50% of PS3 owners are actively buying BR movies, but still have such a large installed base is a huge advantage.

Ok lets say only 30% of PS3 owners buy a movie. Without counting stand alone players they are still kicking ass.

mrtew · Dec 17, 2007, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

I kind of doubt that anywhere near 50% of PS3 owners are actively buying BR movies,..

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Ok lets say only 30% of PS3 owners buy a movie. Without counting stand alone players they are still kicking ass.

I sure wish there was a way to get actual numbers. Some people can't seem to believe that PS3 owners are buying bluray discs and I can't believe that PS3 owners AREN'T buying discs. Compromising and saying that it's 50% or 30% of them seems ridiculous. Isn't Sony or someone studying it to find out the reality?

icruise · Dec 17, 2007, 12:56 PM

Well the problem is that it's a very fluid kind of thing. Lots of people have at least one disc because of the freebies or because they wanted to try it out. But determining what percentage is actually buying movies on a regular basis (to the same extent as owners of standalone machines, for example) is pretty tricky. Just looking at the sales numbers for BR shows you that it's only a small percentage of total owners, or else BR would be selling to 10x as much as BR and not just 2-3 times as much.

Mrjinglesusa · Dec 17, 2007, 01:02 PM

I bought a 60GB PS3 mainly for watching Blu-ray movies. It's widely regarded as the most feature complete, upgradeable Blu-ray player on the market. I doubt I am in the majority. Most people buy a PS3 to game with it.

exca1ibur · Dec 17, 2007, 01:03 PM

You also have to factor how many PS3 owners have an HDTV. No point of Blu-ray or HD-DVD unless you have an HDTV. That is why they will be slower to adopt than DVD overall.

ort888 · Dec 17, 2007, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Ok let see... 11 million PS3's SOLD by March of next year.
Sony: Sony Banking On Selling 11 Million PS3s By March 08

Lets assume only 50% of those PS3 owners every buy 1 BR disk... ouch to HD-DVD.

No doubt someone will show a survey that shows that only 2% of PS3 owners watch BR movies. Either way the sales of disks for the past 12 months would show otherwise.

That 11 million number is just more spin. They would have to sell a million a month every month to hit that number.

jokell82 · Dec 17, 2007, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

I sure wish there was a way to get actual numbers. Some people can't seem to believe that PS3 owners are buying bluray discs and I can't believe that PS3 owners AREN'T buying discs. Compromising and saying that it's 50% or 30% of them seems ridiculous. Isn't Sony or someone studying it to find out the reality?

Some people are, but it's obvious through the numbers that the majority are not. Sure the smaller percentages of PS3 Blu-Ray buyers translates to a definite advantage vs. standalones at the current levels. But right now HD sales (both formats) still account for less than 1% of all retail movies sales.

goMac · Dec 17, 2007, 01:11 PM

I think that most people honestly buy the PS3, give it to their kids, and then it sits in their kids room and the parents have no idea what the PS3 does, only that it "plays them Mario games and stuff."

Didn't they do that study where only 30% of PS3 owners even realized it had a Bluray drive?

exca1ibur · Dec 17, 2007, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Didn't they do that study where only 30% of PS3 owners even realized it had a Bluray drive?

I highly doubt that, being is ships WITH a movie, and you get 5 free through a mail in offer included in the box. I think someone needed page hits.

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 17, 2007, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

I bought a 60GB PS3 mainly for watching Blu-ray movies. It's widely regarded as the most feature complete, upgradeable Blu-ray player on the market. I doubt I am in the majority. Most people buy a PS3 to game with it.

I am in the same boat as you. I got it for the BR and the games was a bonus.

Oh and it looks like there is another case of what GoMac would call "An extremely small batch of bad disks"
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix giving Xbox 360 HD DVD players fits? - Engadget HD

jokell82 · Dec 17, 2007, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by exca1ibur

I highly doubt that, being is ships WITH a movie, and you get 5 free through a mail in offer included in the box. I think someone needed page hits.

That was before the free movie offer, and I hate to underestimate the intelligence of anyone, but some people may have thought that free Blu-Ray was just a DVD.

mrtew · Dec 17, 2007, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by exca1ibur

I highly doubt that, being is ships WITH a movie, and you get 5 free through a mail in offer included in the box. I think someone needed page hits.

I bought mine mainly for playing movies, but it didn't ship with a movie.... it shipped with an off-road game. Maybe there is a coupon inside for 5 free movies but I haven't looked yet and I'd be willing to believe that most people don't look thru the stack of papers that come with every electronic device to see what they all are. It's hard to believe that people buy something for $400 - $600 without even knowing that it is their new HDvideo player.

jokell82 · Dec 17, 2007, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

I bought mine mainly for playing movies, but it didn't ship with a movie.... it shipped with an off-road game. Maybe there is a coupon inside for 5 free movies but I haven't looked yet and I'd be willing to believe that most people don't look thru the stack of papers that come with every electronic device to see what they all are. It's hard to believe that people buy something for $400 - $600 without even knowing that it is their new HDvideo player.

You have to remember, the vast majority of people buying this machine want it as a sequel to their PS2, which they probably don't consider a movie player. I'd really like to see the amount of people that own PS3s that also own HDTVs, because I think the number is lower than most people assume.

ort888 · Dec 17, 2007, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

That was before the free movie offer, and I hate to underestimate the intelligence of anyone, but some people may have thought that free Blu-Ray was just a DVD.

I think most people don't even know what a blu-ray is.

If you went out on the street and asked 1,000 people to tell you what Blu-ray was, I bet most would not know it was even a movie format... and I also wager that most of the people who knew it was some sort of movie format couldn't tell you what the specific benefit was.

We are not normal people. We are nerds. Most people could give 2 craps about things like this. Seriously. I bet 95% of the population could care less or even tell the difference between standard and high-def.

A woman in my office bought an HDTV and was gushing over how great HD was and blah blah blah. I asked her a few questions and it turned out that she was just watching normal cable and DVDs on it. It told her she wasn't really watching in HD and she didn't believe me.

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 17, 2007, 01:50 PM

Sony Blu-ray Player Dips Below $300 Mark | High-Def Digest

PS3 firmware update to bring DivX, Blu-ray 1.1 upgrade :: DESTRUCTOID - Hardcore Gamer Community :: Video Games PC PlayStation 2 Xbox 360 Wii PS3 GameCube PSP DS GBA PS2 PlayStation 3

goMac · Dec 17, 2007, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

A woman in my office bought an HDTV and was gushing over how great HD was and blah blah blah. I asked her a few questions and it turned out that she was just watching normal cable and DVDs on it. It told her she wasn't really watching in HD and she didn't believe me.

Yep. I run into this all the time. I have friends that buy HDTV's and they invite people over to watch it. So I get there, and the image is all distorted, and they're just watching the standard SD feed stretched to widescreen. And they think they're watching it in HD.

goMac · Dec 17, 2007, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Sony Blu-ray Player Dips Below $300 Mark | High-Def Digest

$299 for a Bluray player that runs a beta version of the format and can't play all content vs. a $199 HD-DVD player that is up to date and can play all titles and content on those titles?

I think that's what's called a fire sale of an outdated player.

analogue SPRINKLES · Dec 17, 2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

$299 for a Bluray player that runs a beta version of the format and can't play all content vs. a $199 HD-DVD player that is up to date and can play all titles and content on those titles?

I'll take that over waaaaay less studio support ya.

Mrjinglesusa · Dec 17, 2007, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

A woman in my office bought an HDTV and was gushing over how great HD was and blah blah blah. I asked her a few questions and it turned out that she was just watching normal cable and DVDs on it. It told her she wasn't really watching in HD and she didn't believe me.

yeah, and it doesn't help matters when some stations broadcast mainly SD on their HD channel (e.g., TBS).