[bstone]

Just got home from a movie and dad has informed me he has a problem with his 99 Chrysler Seabring Convertible JX. He said, "Son, when I turn the key I hear click click click." So we went outside and sure enough when we turned the key we hear a click click click, fast and over and over.

I figure it sounds like the starter as I had a similar problem. I crawl under the car (this being midnight) and try to find his starter to give it a nice whack, but I can't locate it. I ask him to turn the key so I can locate it with my ears, but before I get a chance to go under the car the engine suddenly turns over.

Tomorrow we're going to the auto parts store to have the battery tested and pick up a new starter. Simply enough to replace as I've done it on my Explorer before.

Just curious if there are other opinions as to the root of the issue (other than low battery and starter).

P.S. This is my 1350th post. Do I get a gift? And please, no cookies.

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by bstone 

P.S. This is my 1350th post. Do I get a gift?

[vmarks]

It isn't the starter.

It's the sound of the starter not getting enough juice from the battery or the starter solenoid not engaging.

Very rare for the solenoid to fail, so buy a battery. I'll bet you it's a bad cell on the battery you've got in there.

[Atomic Rooster]

Sorry but i've got to follow my old auto shop teachers advise.

Always start with the battery!

If it has gone completely dead lately it will not fully recharge. A cell may have gone dead. Lead plate warping and touching another plate.

Always check the cables. The connections may look good but corrosion may be causing the problem. Disconnect and clean terminals with wire brush or sand paper.

This may also cause the car from being jump started.

My 12 volts worth.

[bstone]

If we bring the battery into the parts store and their computer says it is tested clean, should I replace the solenoid? I assume this solenoid is on the starter, and not a remote one like on my Explorer. Battery is 2 years old.

[vmarks]

If the battery tests good, check connections at the battery cables and the cables at the starter and ground.

It just doesn't seem that common to me for a solenoid to fail.

I've had solenoids fail on my 40 year old cars.

I haven't had a solenoid fail on a car that is newer than 15 years old.

[Atomic Rooster]

Doesn't sound like starter problem to me but it's hard to diagnose over the net.

[vmarks]

Well, he could test just the solenoid by jumpering power to it straight from the battery and seeing if it enganges the gear with the flywheel, by listening for it.

It's 99% sure to be the battery.

[Railroader]

I concur with vmarks.

You might just have had a bad/corroded connection on the battery terminals and jostling things around allowed enough juice to pass through and allow the engine to turn over when it did.

[Gossamer]

I'll second the dead battery...my car did exactly that when I needed to replace the battery. I would try to start it but it gave me a rapid clicking instead.

[sek929]

My 95 Intrepid developed a "flat spot" in the starter and would click if it stopped in a certain position.

Sometimes it would start right up, sometimes it would take 20 tries to start up, and the battery was new.

A brand new starter did the trick, and since the OPs car is a Chrysler too it very well might be the starter.

[OB1]

It's the starter motor. You hear the click from the solenoid? - Battery's fine. I've no experience with that model of car, but if it's got a manual gear-box, put it in second (ignition off), get out the car, and rock the car back and forth. This will, probably, free up the starter and you'll get a few more starts out of it. The starter needs replacing soon though.

[bstone]

Originally Posted by OB1 

It's the starter motor. You hear the click from the solenoid? - Battery's fine. I've no experience with that model of car, but if it's got a manual gear-box, put it in second (ignition off), get out the car, and rock the car back and forth. This will, probably, free up the starter and you'll get a few more starts out of it. The starter needs replacing soon though.

Hmm...the only thing I wonder about this is that at least one car expert (vmarks) tells me it is not the starter motor, but the battery. Are you quite certain?

UPDATED NEWS: dad says that when he got a jump, the engine turned over.

PLAN OF ACTION:
1) Have battery tested by the local auto shop
-> If bad, replace with Optima Red Top

2) If battery is fine, replace starter solenoid

3) If fine, replace starter motor

Does this seem like a sane plan of action?

[Mastrap]

Yes it does. Just to add to the confusion, a clicking sound can be caused by both a dead battery (or a bad connection, check the earth cable first) and a soon to be dead starter motor. I had the same thing happening to me in my wife's Golf.

[OB1]

Originally Posted by bstone 

Hmm...the only thing I wonder about this is that at least one car expert (vmarks) tells me it is not the starter motor, but the battery. Are you quite certain?

UPDATED NEWS: dad says that when he got a jump, the engine turned over.

PLAN OF ACTION:
1) Have battery tested by the local auto shop
-> If bad, replace with Optima Red Top

2) If battery is fine, replace starter solenoid

3) If fine, replace starter motor

Does this seem like a sane plan of action?

I'm pretty certain because I've had the same situation myself. If the car has a manual gear-box it's very easy to diagnose (with the second gear/rock-car-back-and-forth-to-free-it-up trick).

+ If the battery has enough juice to rapidly fire the solenoid - then (just as you crawled under at midnight), enough juice to turn the starter sufficiently to start the engine - your battery is holding it's charge. Your local Garage should check your battery for free though.

So,

Your battery appears to be holding a charge,

You can hear your solenoid, so that's probably fine,

Your starter works, but it's unpredictable.

My money's on the starter-motor.

[OB1]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

a clicking sound can be caused by both a dead battery (or a bad connection, check the earth cable first) and a soon to be dead starter motor. I had the same thing happening to me in my wife's Golf.

If your battery is dead, you wont hear the click from the solenoid - nothing to power it

[bstone]

Well then....Dad and I are off to the auto place in an hour or so (after my morning jog and breakfast). Report back then.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by OB1 

If your battery is dead, you wont hear the click from the solenoid - nothing to power it

Sorry, I should have said nearly dead.

[seanc]

To add to the confusion even more, when my mums starter motor died, it occasionally worked and occasionally didn't, either something or nothing.

When my dads battery was almost dead after the car sitting for 6 months, he got a clicking sound when he tried to start it, after jumping it with my mums car it was fine apart from the fact that the inlet manafold needed fixing and that my mums car boiled over during the jump start, I think the cooling fan was broken.

[ghporter]

Battery cables go bad too, particularly the positive cable, but the negative cable (either from the battery OR THE STARTER) can fail too. If the battery is truly good, check those cables!!! The starter's cables are kind of hard to get to on most cars, but it's a damnsight easier to change the cables than either the solenoid or the starter itself.

I've kept some junkers going by spending $15 on cables instead of $200 on starters or $75 on solenoids. The battery is only part of the equation here, so be sure of your cables!

[bstone]

It seems I did not describe the clicking. It is a repeating, very fast clicking. Does this change the possible diagnosis?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Battery cables go bad too, particularly the positive cable, but the negative cable (either from the battery OR THE STARTER) can fail too. If the battery is truly good, check those cables!!! The starter's cables are kind of hard to get to on most cars, but it's a damnsight easier to change the cables than either the solenoid or the starter itself.

I can have any starter off almost any car out in 10 minutes or less, with one exception.

The 1980s LeCar by Renault. The designers didn't leave enough room to get the starter out with the engine in the car. The official procedure was to remove the engine in order to remove the starter, but most mechanics modified the firewall of the car to create the clearance. This is usually done with a sledgehammer. I am Not Making This Up.

I've kept some junkers going by spending $15 on cables instead of $200 on starters or $75 on solenoids. The battery is only part of the equation here, so be sure of your cables!

Junkyard starter. 15 dollars. Multimeter to continuity check the cables. 9 dollars at Sears.
Time to do it? In short supply (darn you, MacNN Forums reported post emails!)

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by bstone 

It seems I did not describe the clicking. It is a repeating, very fast clicking. Does this change the possible diagnosis?

Only a little:

A car will not start even if its battery is 90-95% fully charged. You can get a fast click if it's discharged just that little bit. If jumping the car causes it to start, then you still want to look at the battery.

If jumping is not helping, take a wrench and tap the solenoid. Not a little gentle tap, but whang it with a love-tap the way Spliffdaddy would. Then try to start it jumped and non-jumped.

Check your cables, and consider the starter after you've tested the battery properly (under load.)

[kcmac]

Battery.

[bstone]

UPDATE:

we got the car to the auto parts store. They wheeled out the battery tester which said "you need a new battery". I got dad the optima red top. I plan to install it after I take a nap- been going since 1800 yesterday and it 1115 now.

Access to the starter and solenoid isn't terribly simple. There is no top engine access and it's covered by a heat shield on the bottom. Also, depending on how many liters his engine is, I may have to remove the oil filter in order to remove the starter (this according to the chilton manual).

[reader50]

Originally Posted by bstone 

UPDATE:

we got the car to the auto parts store. They wheeled out the battery tester which said "you need a new battery".
...

Do you mean that they wheeled it out to the car? Question, did they clamp onto the battery clamps to do the load test, or did they remove the regular clamps and go directly to the battery?

A proper battery test requires connection straight to the battery terminals. On most batteries, you need to remove the clamps to do that. If it wasn't done that way, then I'm sure that tester helps them sell a lot more batteries.

Proper diagnosis is normally done before parts changing. Your action plan looks expensive if you don't hit the problem on the first parts change. Get a voltmeter from an auto store, Radio Shack, hardware store, or any number of other places. A little homework will save you a world of grief and wasted money.

Put the voltmeter's probes on the battery's posts (not the clamps), and have someone turn the key. If the voltage drops below 7 volts during the start attempt, then the battery is either discharged or a goner. If so, give it an hour on a charger and retest. If it fails again, replace battery.

If the battery holds voltage during the test, then it's a connection problem, or the solenoid, or the starter. Put the negative test probe on exposed metal of the engine block, and the positive probe on the battery's negative post (not the clamp) and repeat the test. You should see less than 1 volt during a start test, anything higher (like 12 volts) and you've found the problem. If higher, work the positive probe back. Put it on the negative terminal clamp next, if the voltage reading goes away, then the negative post/clamp needs cleaning. If you have to go further back, then it's the cable -> clamp connection, the negative (ground) cable, or the ground connection bolt on the block.

If the negative side tests out, move the positive probe to the battery's positive clamp. Now, you are looking for voltage during the test, a low reading will indicate a problem. A low reading at the positive clamp indicates the positive terminal/clamp needs cleaning.

If the positive clamps have a good reading during a test, move the positive meter probe to the battery-connection side of the solenoid or solenoid relay, whichever your car has. If voltage goes low during the start test, then it's the positive cable, the positive clamp -> cable connection, or the battery-side connection terminal on the solenoid (or solenoid relay). You can narrow it down further by moving the test probe around and retesting.

If the solenoid (or solenoid relay) is getting full voltage during a start test, it's pretty well narrowed down to the starter or solenoid. If you have a solenoid relay, check the output voltage on the terminal going to the starter (and ideally on the starter's positive input terminal too). Any significant voltage drop and you've found your problem.

Note: if voltage does drop across the relay or solenoid, check at the control wire for the solenoid (or relay) with the control wire still connected. There should be steady voltage during the test, anything less and the starter switch is the likely culprit.

Most starters don't have a negative output cable, they use the engine block as the ground return. So if you confirm full voltage to the starter and it isn't turning, then get the new starter. If the starter isn't turning over, but it's hanging from loose bolts, then you've found your problem that way too.

Using a $10 VOM and a half hour of testing could put $200 back in your pocket. Without testing, I'd suspect the battery terminals & clamps need cleaning. That's free. If the store guys really did wheel the tester out to the car, and tested from the clamps instead of the terminals, then don't use those guys for testing again. They either didn't know what they were doing, or were trying to sell batteries.

[Eriamjh]

I was gonna say battery, but I came after the solution was found.

Note: A failing battery is not the same as a dead battery. The batery may have enough juice to light the interior lamps, click the starter solenoid, and even turn on the headlights, but the 100-200 amps the starter needs sucks too much from the battery and the voltage drops down to nothing. Hence, no turn over.

Haven't you guys ever seen an iPod or Powerbook battery read 90% full one second then dead the next? It's the same thing.

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by reader50 

Do you mean that they wheeled it out to the car? Question, did they clamp onto the battery clamps to do the load test, or did they remove the regular clamps and go directly to the battery?

A proper battery test requires connection straight to the battery terminals. On most batteries, you need to remove the clamps to do that. If it wasn't done that way, then I'm sure that tester helps them sell a lot more batteries.

Proper diagnosis is normally done before parts changing. Your action plan looks expensive if you don't hit the problem on the first parts change. Get a voltmeter from an auto store, Radio Shack, hardware store, or any number of other places. A little homework will save you a world of grief and wasted money.

Put the voltmeter's probes on the battery's posts (not the clamps), and have someone turn the key. If the voltage drops below 7 volts during the start attempt, then the battery is either discharged or a goner. If so, give it an hour on a charger and retest. If it fails again, replace battery.

If the battery holds voltage during the test, then it's a connection problem, or the solenoid, or the starter. Put the negative test probe on exposed metal of the engine block, and the positive probe on the battery's negative post (not the clamp) and repeat the test. You should see less than 1 volt during a start test, anything higher (like 12 volts) and you've found the problem. If higher, work the positive probe back. Put it on the negative terminal clamp next, if the voltage reading goes away, then the negative post/clamp needs cleaning. If you have to go further back, then it's the cable -> clamp connection, the negative (ground) cable, or the ground connection bolt on the block.

If the negative side tests out, move the positive probe to the battery's positive clamp. Now, you are looking for voltage during the test, a low reading will indicate a problem. A low reading at the positive clamp indicates the positive terminal/clamp needs cleaning.

If the positive clamps have a good reading during a test, move the positive meter probe to the battery-connection side of the solenoid or solenoid relay, whichever your car has. If voltage goes low during the start test, then it's the positive cable, the positive clamp -> cable connection, or the battery-side connection terminal on the solenoid (or solenoid relay). You can narrow it down further by moving the test probe around and retesting.

If the solenoid (or solenoid relay) is getting full voltage during a start test, it's pretty well narrowed down to the starter or solenoid. If you have a solenoid relay, check the output voltage on the terminal going to the starter (and ideally on the starter's positive input terminal too). Any significant voltage drop and you've found your problem.

Note: if voltage does drop across the relay or solenoid, check at the control wire for the solenoid (or relay) with the control wire still connected. There should be steady voltage during the test, anything less and the starter switch is the likely culprit.

Most starters don't have a negative output cable, they use the engine block as the ground return. So if you confirm full voltage to the starter and it isn't turning, then get the new starter. If the starter isn't turning over, but it's hanging from loose bolts, then you've found your problem that way too.

Using a $10 VOM and a half hour of testing could put $200 back in your pocket. Without testing, I'd suspect the battery terminals & clamps need cleaning. That's free. If the store guys really did wheel the tester out to the car, and tested from the clamps instead of the terminals, then don't use those guys for testing again. They either didn't know what they were doing, or were trying to sell batteries.

I would probably trust the guys at the shop more than you... you sound credible, but someone right there in front of me saying opposite would almost always take away an anonymous user's credibility. And that sounds like more work than it's worth... just buy the new battery and be done with it. The same clicking sound has always been a bad battery in my experience (happened maybe 4 times in the last 10 years. on different cars.).

[Sbtrfuge]

It needs a new battery. Click= not enough juice to turn the engine over.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Sbtrfuge 

It needs a new battery. Click= not enough juice to turn the engine over.

But that could be from bad cables or corroded terminals.

[RAILhead]

Needs new gerbils?

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

But that could be from bad cables or corroded terminals.

It could be. And replacing the battery sometimes fixes that IF the corrosion is at the battery. If it is at the starter, then you would have to crawl under and check it.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

It could be. And replacing the battery sometimes fixes that IF the corrosion is at the battery.

Certainly, but you're wasting your money and not doing the most eco-friendly thing when you simply replace the battery and don't check the cables/connections.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Needs new gerbils?

I believe the Sebring Convertibles at that time had Guinea Pigs™. But only that years models.