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houstonmacbro · Nov 30, 2006, 03:07 AM

seems that there was a lot of ancient technology that we are still discovering. wonder what else the ancients had that we don't know about? i think a lot of ancient civilizations (not just the greeks) had technology that we are just now starting to understand.

wonder how it changes what we'll teach in schools.

****

It all adds up: Artifact was a computer
By THOMAS H. MAUGH II
Los Angeles Times

After a century of study, scientists have unlocked the secrets of a mysterious 2,100-year-old device known as the "Antikythera mechanism," showing it to be a complex and uncannily accurate astronomical computer.

The mechanism, recovered in more than 80 highly corroded fragments from a sunken Roman ship, could predict the positions of the sun and planets, show the location of the moon and even forecast eclipses.

The international team of scientists reported today that the device, the earliest known example of an arrangement of gear wheels, shows a technological sophistication that was not seen again until clockwork mechanisms were introduced in the 14th century.

full article here

Chuckit · Nov 30, 2006, 03:17 AM

Interesting. Several ancient cultures seem to have had relatively advanced astronomical knowledge. But how would this change what we teach in schools?

houstonmacbro · Nov 30, 2006, 03:20 AM

well, the assumption that we (at this time) have history's greatest technology.

CharlesS · Nov 30, 2006, 03:24 AM

That thing may be amazingly advanced for the time it was made in, but just because the article calls it a "computer" doesn't mean that it's on the same level as the computer you're reading this post on. The device was made of 37 gears and showed where the celestial bodies would be at a given time. It seems to me to be more closely related to watchmaking than computers as we typically think of them, if I'm reading the article correctly.

Chuckit · Nov 30, 2006, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by houstonmacbro

well, the assumption that we (at this time) have history's greatest technology.

I don't see anything about this that would make me question this idea. This is amazingly sophisticated technology for its time, but it's still pre-scientific revolution stuff.

ebuddy · Nov 30, 2006, 05:47 AM

It's a bandid-boobis snarflat.

- - e r i k - - · Nov 30, 2006, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by houstonmacbro

well, the assumption that we (at this time) have history's greatest technology.

Yeah. Dammit! We are going backwards! I bet this thing ran 300 fps in Duke Nukem Forever!!

SirCastor · Nov 30, 2006, 05:52 AM

Computer is a rather literal word: It computes. The word doesn't even imply electronics, or digital information. This is an analog computer. If you look up computer in Wikipedia, you'll find all kinds of things that aren't "modern" computers

mac128k-1984 · Nov 30, 2006, 06:03 AM

I'd rather shy away from calling it a computer but that in no way dimishes the marvel of our ancient cultures abilities.

In some ways you wonder where this world would be if any of those cultures did not fall. The easy pick is Rome, but take Greece, or even ancient Babylonia. If mankind had the chance to continue onward and upward w/o needing to rebuild civiliation where would we be?

Of course nobody knows - other then scifi writers

- - e r i k - - · Nov 30, 2006, 06:09 AM

Destruction is the best way to encourage progress. We might very well be on the verge of a failing of modern civilization in the next hundred years or so (or longer), but you can rest assured that it will only lead to greater things in the end.

History shows that empires come and go over and over again and that there is no signs of us having learnt from that. Indeed it seems, that we are doomed to repeat history over and over, but that each time we are doing slightly better than before as a result.

Eug Wanker · Nov 30, 2006, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984

In some ways you wonder where this world would be if any of those cultures did not fall.

imitchellg5 · Nov 30, 2006, 08:12 AM

It's not very pretty like a Mac. Clearly it's a Dell prototype.

Gossamer · Nov 30, 2006, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by SirCastor

Computer is a rather literal word: It computes. The word doesn't even imply electronics, or digital information.

On the internet, or more specifically a Mac forum? Yeah, it implies electronic device. I'm not saying it's not a computer in the literal sense of the word, but I'm saying the word does have definite implications, especially around here.

Eug Wanker · Nov 30, 2006, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

On the internet, or more specifically a Mac forum? Yeah, it implies electronic device. I'm not saying it's not a computer in the literal sense of the word, but I'm saying the word does have definite implications, especially around here.

From the title I was expecting a device just like what is in the original post, although I was expecting it to be an adding machine.

osiris · Nov 30, 2006, 08:28 AM

Does it do the internets?

mac128k-1984 · Nov 30, 2006, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Destruction is the best way to encourage progress. We might very well be on the verge of a failing of modern civilization in the next hundred years or so (or longer), but you can rest assured that it will only lead to greater things in the end.

I think you can have advancement without destruction. Look how long it took to rebuild civilization after the fall of the roman empire. Now the fall was inevitable for a number of reasons but it took over a thousand to get back to where rome was civiliation wise (western civilization that is)

While destruction can lead to progress, I think unimpeded progress will surpass destruction/progress. This of course is just theory since our history is rife with what your postulating.

©öñFü$íóÑ · Nov 30, 2006, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

At least, now we know how such an advanced device REALLY got into the hands of the ancient Greeks/Romans........

Spock's tricorder was damaged and he had to use a "knives-and-bearskins" approach to find a way to contact the Enterprise in orbit... 2100 years ago.

j/k

mitchell_pgh · Nov 30, 2006, 10:18 AM

What I find amazing is how far back we regressed during the middle ages...

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

What I find amazing is how far back we regressed during the middle ages...

Perhaps not so coincidently with the rise of Catholicism.

Dakar² · Nov 30, 2006, 12:15 PM

I was waiting for someone to mention religion...

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

I was waiting for someone to mention religion...

He asked, I gave the answer. It's historically accurate. I don't blame religion in general. Muslims and Hindus made huge advancements in mathematics, physics, and astronomy around the same period.

Dakar² · Nov 30, 2006, 12:26 PM

a) He didn't ask a question
b) I wasn't attacking your comment

Kerrigan · Nov 30, 2006, 12:28 PM

I wonder if there were nerds back then who bitched about this 'computer'.

Rumor · Nov 30, 2006, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by osiris

Does it do the internets?

It created the intarnets.

mitchell_pgh · Nov 30, 2006, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Perhaps not so coincidently with the rise of Catholicism.

or the fall of rome...

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

or the fall of rome...

A little of both, I would imagine. Rome was largely a Christian empire by the end.

HackManDan · Nov 30, 2006, 12:43 PM

The onset of the dark-ages demonstrates just how fragile knowledge is.

The body of scientific understanding has always been in the minds of a relatively small number of people.

We may all know how to run our computers and drive our cars, but only a few of us could design them from the ground up.

Rumor · Nov 30, 2006, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by HackManDan

The onset of the dark-ages demonstrates just how fragile knowledge is.

The body of scientific understanding has always been in the minds of a relatively small number of people.

We may all know how to run our computers and drive our cars, but only a few of us could design them from the ground up.

Excellent post.

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I wonder if there were nerds back then who bitched about this 'computer'.

"Applithici computers are way better. They have more style, and an easy-to-use crank."

"Pffft. The Inteloneous has 37 gears, the Applithicus only has 30. Even if it is more complicated and breaks all the time, everyone uses the Inteloneous."

"Only because Inteloneous was forced on the Empire by Bill the Gates."

"There you have it, the Aplithici zealots always whining about the fall of the Empire. Everyone knows that Aplithci are only for small children. 30 gears, puhlease. No one can take you seriously with only 30 gears."

"At least we don't have to rape and pillage to make our IoPod popular."

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by HackManDan

The onset of the dark-ages demonstrates just how fragile knowledge is.

It also demonstrates the understanding of that idea very well. Knoweldge is power, and the best way to keep the nobles rich and powerful was to keep the peasants illiterate and uneducated.

Interesting point, though, it was a huge misnomer that peasants really were dumb just because they were illiterate. Because most of them couldn't read or write, important facts were often memorized via song or poem. Your average peasant could memorize over 100 to 150 words with only a few minutes of concentration.

I think the average now is only 7 to 10 words.

Oneota · Nov 30, 2006, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by SirCastor

Computer is a rather literal word: It computes. The word doesn't even imply electronics, or digital information. This is an analog computer. If you look up computer in Wikipedia, you'll find all kinds of things that aren't "modern" computers

I guess I would say that anything that fits the definition of a Turing Machine is a computer (by the modern-day definition of the word), whether it's analog or digital. Any mechanical device that isn't Turing-Complete isn't a computer, it's just a mechanical device.

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Oneota

If this thing is a computer, then so is a sundial, IMO.

A sun dial doesn't make compuations.

Oneota · Nov 30, 2006, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

A sun dial doesn't make compuations.

Yeah, I realized that not long after I posted it, which is why I edited my post. You're too quick.

Though, on second thought, you could argue that it takes sunlight as input and produces the time of day as output, but that might be stretching it a bit.

mitchell_pgh · Nov 30, 2006, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

A little of both, I would imagine. Rome was largely a Christian empire by the end.

Also, there was a mini-ice age in there as well that threw us back considerably.

I don't think it was a single event that caused it... I think it was a number of things... just like there was no clear reason the egyptian empire failed.

Demonhood · Nov 30, 2006, 01:39 PM

Gossamer · Nov 30, 2006, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Demonhood

[img]http://homepage.mac.com/demonhood/computing_device1.jpg[img]

Nice

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 01:58 PM

That should be 120-110 B.C.

Rumor · Nov 30, 2006, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

It also demonstrates the understanding of that idea very well. Knoweldge is power, and the best way to keep the nobles rich and powerful was to keep the peasants illiterate and uneducated.

Interesting point, though, it was a huge misnomer that peasants really were dumb just because they were illiterate. Because most of them couldn't read or write, important facts were often memorized via song or poem. Your average peasant could memorize over 100 to 150 words with only a few minutes of concentration.

I think the average now is only 7 to 10 words.

Wha?

I lost you somewhere mid-sentence.

Jawbone54 · Nov 30, 2006, 02:32 PM

I.T. guy

ShortcutToMoncton · Nov 30, 2006, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

Also, there was a mini-ice age in there as well that threw us back considerably.

I don't think it was a single event that caused it... I think it was a number of things... just like there was no clear reason the egyptian empire failed.

A lot of "scientific historians" would like to tell you it was largely a problem with environmental overburden...the stress caused by overuse of the land near the centres of the Roman empire meant that it had to keep expanding in order to supply the middle. Eventually, the enormous costs and technical difficulties in managing such a scenario caused a breakdown.

That seems to be at least a significant factor in many past "great civilizations" – Sumeria, Mayan, yadda yadda yadda. Greece had this problem (I think a poem by Plato or someone like that laments the environmental disaster they were having with soil erosion). Egypt has been postulated to last so long because it had sharply defined borders (the Nile valley) and because regular inundations from river overflow allowed agriculture to flourish without unduly stressing the soils.

Of course, science people might not know much about history. That's what they say, anyway.

greg

Kerrigan · Nov 30, 2006, 03:19 PM

How much you wanna bet that these things were designed with porn/sex in mind? Hoping to calculate one's "lucky" stars, the alignment of which would land you a steamy night with a mustachioed Greek beauty.

- - e r i k - - · Nov 30, 2006, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by HackManDan

The onset of the dark-ages demonstrates just how fragile knowledge is.

The body of scientific understanding has always been in the minds of a relatively small number of people.

We may all know how to run our computers and drive our cars, but only a few of us could design them from the ground up.

Post of the year.

This is why sharing and acquirement of knowledge is crucial. We are already heading into a new medical dark age where snake oil and "complementary" medicine flourishes. The environment is clearly heading towards a "roman style" breaking point again (only this time on a global scale).

If I had been religious, I would have clearly been among the "end-times are here" crowd

Demonhood · Nov 30, 2006, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

That should be 120-110 B.C.

doh! stupid reverse time. fixed.

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Wha?

I lost you somewhere mid-sentence.

As a consequence to the "Dark Ages," it was well understood that you could keep people in check by keeping them uneducated. The aristocracy helped to extend the Dark Ages through religion.

I was just pointing out how people can adapt pretty well even with the absense of advancements in science in technology. Even as recent as 60 years, you can observe a huge difference in variety and extensiveness of vocabulary.

Even though I love embrace technological and scientific advancements, the religious (especially fundamentalist Christians) do have a very valid point about people losing touch with their own humanity because of this technology. From an anthropological standpoint, it would be interesting to see a study dealing with advancements in personal wisdom and discovery versus technical knowhow, and how religion affects both.

G Barnett · Nov 30, 2006, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

From the title I was expecting a device just like what is in the original post, although I was expecting it to be an adding machine.

Actually, the more in-depth articles about it state that it could add, subtract, multiply and divide -- so, yeah, it was quite the nifty toy.

olePigeon · Nov 30, 2006, 05:07 PM

I hope someone recreates it. That'd make a kickass office display.

Atomic Rooster · Nov 30, 2006, 05:22 PM

Yes, but was it Snappy?

Sourbook · Nov 30, 2006, 05:44 PM

Archimedes was 1/4 Vulcan.

houstonmacbro · Nov 30, 2006, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

It's not very pretty like a Mac. Clearly it's a Dell prototype.

i was waiting for that...!!!! hilarious.

houstonmacbro · Nov 30, 2006, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I wonder if there were nerds back then who bitched about this 'computer'.

prolly.