[macroy]

Ok - so lets set the stage here first.... I'm in my last semester of my masters. I happen to take an online class which requires a group projects. Among other things such as a real crappy professor, I get to work with a bunch of idiots who apperently do not give a rats ass about this class, their grades, or just this project. To date, I've sent out numerous e-mails asking for feedback, input etc.... nothing. And now the damn thing is due in five days.

But my point is this, what kind of BS are professors or schools pulling here by saying group projects "imitate" the real business world? I don't recall the last time I was asked to work on a group project at work where the members were picked completely at random (hey, well just take the folks on this side of the floor), and most likely would have no expertise on the topic or goal. And I sure as hell don't remember a project at work where folks can just brush off their responsibilities without getting their arse canned.

Yes - I'm a bit pissed. Its not even the fact that our projects's quality isn't good, its simply that these folks have no damn courtesy or the brains to realize that they are screwing with their classmate's grades as well.

Okay - carry on.

[andi*pandi]

I feel your pain. I also have a final group project--and it's a doozy, and needs a group to work on it. However, like you, it's an online class, people from all over, kind of grouped randomly, and so far any emails just to even settle on the scope and responsibilities of the project have been circular. If the project weren't so huge I would have just opted for doing it myself.

[Gossamer]

I've got two final group projects to work on. We spent 6 hours today just to get the first step done. The lab opens at 1 tomorrow and we'll be there at least as long again probably. I hate this time of year.

[Eriamjh]

I've been working in the "real world" for about 14 years now, and what I have learned is that "group" projects tend to consist of each person doing their specific job. There are very few times when consensus, reviews, and multiple inputs are used to accomplish something (except specification reviews and those take FOREVER to get released!).

So to summarize, you have to do all the work to get it done no matter how incompetent, lazy, or ineffective the rest of the team is. Ultimately, getting the job done is more important than getting everyone to work evenly (just ask your boss). Do what you have to do to get it done, give credit to yourself and if you have to, dump your teammates.

[Railroader]

I have two group projects due this week.

One I am paired up with two other people in my major and in the other one only one out of the five are in my major.

I did one group project last week where I was the only one in my major.

I particularly like group projects. They usually are worth more and the professor can usually tell who has done all of the work and grades accordingly.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

The professor can usually tell who has done all of the work and grades accordingly.

That's my experience as well. It may seem like a bad idea while the project is progressing, but the professor usually knows who is working and who is not.

It may suck, but it's life, and the degree is worth it.

[hickey]

I just went through one hell of a terrible group project. But luckily the professor realized what was going on, and made it worth all the hard work that I DID.

[turtle777]

It ALL depends on the professor.

If he doesn't see through the laziness of some members, you might as well do nothing yourself.

-t

[memory-minus]

This is fairly accurate representation of the "real world" in my opinion, which is based on over 6 years experience in said world.

For example, on my team at work which consists of six people, two of us are actually capable of doing the work and are motivated. I'm one of those two, and I know because I work very hard to make things happen. Another two are capable but don't give a **** and only contribute when prodded. And the final two are completely incompetent, don't contribute at all and actually have a negative net effect on productivity because they must be constantly brought up to speed. Yet, we all get paid in the same general vicinity. The two most incompetent people actually likely get paid MORE because they've been there longer than anyone else.

Welcome to the real world!

[macroy]

Originally Posted by memory-minus 

This is fairly accurate representation of the "real world" in my opinion, which is based on over 6 years experience in said world.

For example, on my team at work which consists of six people, two of us are actually capable of doing the work and are motivated. I'm one of those two, and I know because I work very hard to make things happen. Another two are capable but don't give a **** and only contribute when prodded. And the final two are completely incompetent, don't contribute at all and actually have a negative net effect on productivity because they must be constantly brought up to speed. Yet, we all get paid in the same general vicinity. The two most incompetent people actually likely get paid MORE because they've been there longer than anyone else.

Welcome to the real world!

Well... I've had about 15 years of "real world" experience. And while what you said is true - I can't imagine that's the experience the classes are trying to emulate. Yes, we all work with incompetent people. But most of the time, you can call them out, or chose NOT to work with them in the future. If you are the junior person on the team, well...that's a different story. But most of the folks in these classes are also seasoned veterans. So I guess they must also be the lame ones. I just don't' understand why you would choose to make more work by going to grad school then.

I do like the idea of shafting my team-members. I'll have to try that next time (assuming I run into this crap again) as I don't have enough paper trail to cover myself this time around in case the prof decides to accuse me of not working with them.

[macintologist]

Maybe I'm just lucky. I had a final group project in my intro geology class, and the work was divided up evenly among the three of us quite nicely

[olePigeon]

I have an irrational fear of group projects left over from high school. Because I was the "nerd" in class, all the dumbasses immediately jonied my group.

Inevitably, I ended up doing all the work while they freeloaded.

[Salty]

I was always the geek that did all the work in my group projects in high school. The best thing to remember about group projects is that it's always best to just do all the work yourself. The problem was once I got to college there ended up being incompetent people who wanted to take their grades into their own hands, and unfortunately tend to bring down the quality of the whole group. Needless to say I hate working in group projects.
I had one that brought my grade in a class down from either an A or a B to a C my first year. My group refused to listen to anything I had to say, even though they actually didn't understand the subject matter we were supposed to present on. We had this terribly irrational and pushy woman probably in her late 20s who was from eastern europe. Anyway the whole thing was a farce.
Though my second year I was in a world religions class that actually though the class sucked, my group was great. There was one guy who was significantly smarter than the rest of us, (we're talking 4.0 for fun sorta guy) who actually wanted to do all the work and research for the paper, then me and him got together and wrote up a skit sort of presentation, he had all the research of info we needed to present and I wove it together in a series of perpetual one liners that had the class and the prof on the floor laughing. In the end both our paper and presentation received A's.
Last year I did a group project with a couple friends, and I can confidently say I will never again ever work on anything that's being graded with my friend Justin. He nagged me the entire time, and refused to simply allow me to take care of my part of the project (video editing) he'd actually come in my room and nag me to finish the video when he already knew that it was being mixed down and that my poor 1Ghz PowerBook could only do that so fast.

[Railroader]

Justin is so bad at group work.

[ghporter]

One group project presented last week, one next week, finals in between. Fortunately my classmates are not at all like yours, macroy. We have been working hard on every bit of these projects for quite some time and I can say categorically we nailed the one last week. Next week's should be similar. In that one, we actually have people saying "but you've done so much-I'll handle the paper and do most of the talking!" It's great.

Now for the rain-in a lot of cases your experience with slacker classmates DOES mimic parts of the business world. People who are slackers at school are going to be slackers on the job too. Good profs know this and have ways to account for them in grading, such as having each group member rate all the other members on their contribution and performance. It sounds like your prof is NOT one of the smart ones and is himself slacking.

[DeathToWindows]

I generally try to avoid group projects like the plague... however, I am a lab technician / student researcher and I'm running my own project within the lab - for something like that, I have no problem working with anyone who can help me (or I can help them) as we're all intrinsically motivated at various levels (as opposed to classes, where there are always people who are there because they have to be rather than out of any desire to actually learn.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by macroy 

And I sure as hell don't remember a project at work where folks can just brush off their responsibilities without getting their arse canned.

.

That's my major beef with group projects, and why I don't rely on them in my classes. The two problems are the free-rider problem and the lack of compatible incentive structures, both mentioned in your original post. Since both of those are part of my class, I make good use of students' group experiences in OTHER classes.

[ghporter]

In business you WILL find people who take advantage of other people's drive for getting stuff done-not entirely dumping their responsibilities, but often re characterizing their stuff as "dependent on your work, so I'll have to wait until you're done" or "I'm going to have to just give you the basics because your part has so much leeway with how you present stuff." I've had it happen to me even in the military. Of course school is so much more flexible and relaxed (and often the profs don't pay enough attention) so the slackers can get away with more.

finboy, you might try the "evaluate your group members" strategy-particularly when you present it during the first class meeting. Every time I've seen it used it's been very effective (or not needed).

[itai195]

I had a mixed experience with group projects in college and grad school. Some were amazing, when I had an excellent group we produced results that I'm still proud of to this day. When I had a not so excellent group, yes, it was a drag. I did have one course that was heavily dependent on group projects where we had to fill out evaluations of each team member throughout the semester and grading was supposedly based on it. I don't know if they actually followed through with that, but it at least made me feel better when one or two of my teammates didn't hold up their side of the bargain.

I do think it's valuable experience to work with groups while in school. You'll rarely be off on your own in the workplace. However, I agree that the environment and incentive structure is totally different in school, so it can be a drag when you've got a crappy team.

[mindwaves]

School projects can be stupid even if you have the right people. My group right now is a decent group of ppl, but they can be ummmm....stupid. For instance, we have a group research paper due this Saturday and last week, we decided that we were far behind on it and we need to get together to finish it. So being so smart, they canceled on meeting last Saturday and canceled the meeting today so they can have more time on it. Huh? It is due on Saturday! Oh well, this is my last quarter at this program before I drop out.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

finboy, you might try the "evaluate your group members" strategy-particularly when you present it during the first class meeting. Every time I've seen it used it's been very effective (or not needed).

Oh yeah, it works great. If I use groups at all (and I usually do with my grad students) I hand that out on Day One. With the syllabus and the evaluation rubric for presentations/reports. I've never had a lot of trouble with grad students and groups, but there's always some jerk in the class that doesn't want to work. Peer evals shake them up. I try to keep the group component of the class grade pretty low, regardless.

Undergrads? No way. I've done it, but it was only for advanced classes and presentations, when absolutely necessary. Not too many group projects for undergrads in basic classes, but peer evals whenever I have groups. You betcha.

You're going to find parallels in the working world, sure. But chances are folks are going to be more carefully evaluated or more significantly punished for not participating. That's why groups work for grad students (although part-time students have trouble meeting, that's a given).

What I've found with a lot of professors in recent years is that group work reduces their workload. In fact, student presentations seems to be the trend at some schools -- have students present everything. Well, heck, what a great idea! I'd never have to come to work! I've seen some folks use this with case method, having students present two sides. I'm sure it can be used effectively, but most often I hear "large class sizes" cited shortly after the technique is described.

Beware groupwork. As with anything else, as Mr. Lennon said "follow the [incentives]". If they ain't there, it won't work.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Oh yeah, it works great. If I use groups at all (and I usually do with my grad students) I hand that out on Day One. With the syllabus and the evaluation rubric for presentations/reports. I've never had a lot of trouble with grad students and groups, but there's always some jerk in the class that doesn't want to work. Peer evals shake them up. I try to keep the group component of the class grade pretty low, regardless.

Undergrads? No way. I've done it, but it was only for advanced classes and presentations, when absolutely necessary.

You're going to find parallels in the working world, sure. But chances are folks are going to be more carefully evaluated or more significantly punished for not participating. That's why groups work for grad students (although part-time students have trouble meeting, that's a given).

What I've found with a lot of professors in recent years is that group work reduces their workload. In fact, student presentations seems to be the trend at some schools -- have students present everything. Well, heck, what a great idea! I'd never have to come to work! I've seen some folks use this with case method, having students present two sides. I'm sure it can be used effectively, but most often I hear "large class sizes" cited shortly after the technique is described.

Beware groupwork. As with anything else, as Mr. Lennon said "follow the [incentives]". If they ain't there, it won't work.

Peer evals should be mandatory with any group assignment.

[mitchell_pgh]

Unfortunately, there ARE people at work that don't do what they should on group projects and seem to get slip through...

My words of advice:
- document, document, document
- burn them in the final review
- make your part GREAT!

That's all you can do.