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Big Mac · Dec 19, 2006, 11:21 AM

No Windows app I've seen is smart enough to grey the Save menu item when no new changes to a document have been made. Are Windows developers just lazy?

Dark Helmet · Dec 19, 2006, 11:25 AM

I think it is more their users honestly don't notice or even when you point it out to them they still don't care.

Gossamer · Dec 19, 2006, 11:27 AM

And because of this the entire operating system falls apart. This is the most utterly stupid thing ever and Microsoft should die because of it.

Doofy · Dec 19, 2006, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I think it is more their users honestly don't notice or even when you point it out to them they still don't care.

Of course they don't care. If they cared, they wouldn't be subjecting themselves to using Windows.

Gee4orce · Dec 19, 2006, 11:32 AM

There used to be a wonderful web site called the User Interface Hall of Shame (note: the Mac had it's fair share of contributions too! ) I wish someone would revive it - it was hilarious. Or frightening.

TETENAL · Dec 19, 2006, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No Windows app I've seen is smart enough to grey the Save menu item when no new changes to a document have been made.

And Mac applications do? *

* This is a rhetorical question.

Atheist · Dec 19, 2006, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No Windows app I've seen is smart enough to grey the Save menu item when no new changes to a document have been made. Are Windows developers just lazy?

I would agree that developer's can be lazy (I'm guilty of it at times myself).

kick52 · Dec 19, 2006, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No Windows app I've seen is smart enough to grey the Save menu item when no new changes to a document have been made. Are Windows developers just lazy?

wait a min... you would of used windows to find out that that occurs!!!!!1111!!!one!!!two!!!

starman · Dec 19, 2006, 11:45 AM

There are two ways you can gray out that menu:

1) Yourself.
2) If the app is document-based, you can flag it as "dirty" which will automagically flag that menu on and off.

Dark Helmet · Dec 19, 2006, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Of course they don't care. If they cared, they wouldn't be subjecting themselves to using Windows.

Exactly my point.

Gossamer · Dec 19, 2006, 11:50 AM

This is a complete and utter non-issue. Hitting 'save' if no changes are made hurts nothing, so why make a big deal out of it? Stop being such a Mac fanboy looking for any flaw you can come up with in Windows.

Gossamer · Dec 19, 2006, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

There used to be a wonderful web site called the User Interface Hall of Shame (note: the Mac had it's fair share of contributions too! ) I wish someone would revive it - it was hilarious. Or frightening.

Like this? (looks pretty dated)

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No Windows app I've seen is smart enough to grey the Save menu item when no new changes to a document have been made. Are Windows developers just lazy?

Odd. I just opened a file in TextEdit, made no changes, yet I have a save option.

End of the world!!!!1!!11!!

Gossamer · Dec 19, 2006, 12:06 PM

ZOMG APPLES DEVELOPS ARE LAZY !ELEVEN!!

Dakar² · Dec 19, 2006, 12:15 PM

Apple doesn't even follow their own rules half the time. Big surprise.

osiris · Dec 19, 2006, 12:27 PM

Another stupid flaw with Windows apps is when you double click an app and two unique instances of the same app launch. Though this is only useful with something like RealPlayer, I can't see the logic behind this.

Salty · Dec 19, 2006, 12:30 PM

Simple it means your computer feels slower faster and so you'll buy a new one quicker.

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by osiris

Another stupid flaw with Windows apps is when you double click an app and two unique instances of the same app launch. Though this is only useful with something like RealPlayer, I can't see the logic behind this.

Only if you have the 'single click to open' option enabled.

osiris · Dec 19, 2006, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Only if you have the 'single click to open' option enabled.

Didn't know that - but the default is set to keep opening as many as you can click, I presume?

residentEvil · Dec 19, 2006, 12:36 PM

my boss double-clicks links in webpages to follow the link; but will single-click an icon on his desktop...not sure where he got that habit from; as that doesn't work in the default windows world.

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by osiris

Didn't know that - but the default is set to keep opening as many as you can click, I presume?

Honestly I can't remember if the default is single or double click. I always set it to double click icons, if it wasn't to begin with.

Gossamer · Dec 19, 2006, 12:49 PM

Default is double for icons, single for tray items.
One of my friends kept double clicking the display icon in the system preferences and changed the resolution every time. I see people double clicking dock icons all of the time too.

Dakar² · Dec 19, 2006, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

Default is double for icons, single for tray items.
One of my friends kept double clicking the display icon in the system preferences and changed the resolution every time. I see people double clicking dock icons all of the time too.

I find myself single-clicking app icons in a window sometimes.

analogika · Dec 19, 2006, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

And because of this the entire operating system falls apart. This is the most utterly stupid thing ever and Microsoft should die because of it.

Death by a thousand cuts, death by a thousand cuts...

powerbook867 · Dec 19, 2006, 01:14 PM

One thing that drives me nuts with Windows and windows applications in general is the slow down in the OS as the machine's installation ages.

My work machine is a 2 gig IBM thinkpad w/ 2 gig of ram. It has nothing on it except standard apps I need day in day out to do my job. Office, some storage tools from IBM, virus scan, etc. No games, no shareware, no crap.

The machine + OS + apps were fast as hell when I first got the machine. Fast forward 10 months to present day and the machine runs like it has 256 meg of ram and a 733 celeron in it...

I have defragged, checked for virus' and spyware. It's like OS/application pollution occurs and the machine becomes a pig(I know it's probably all registry pollution, but wtf..). On top of that, it refuses to go to sleep...

I wish they'd buy me a mac for my day job...

Gossamer · 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

Death by a thousand cuts, death by a thousand cuts...

Well apparently this is one cut that OS X is guilty of too. Like I said, it's a complete and utter non-issue. It affects functionality and usability in absolutely NO way whatsoever.

TETENAL · Dec 19, 2006, 01:52 PM

The Save command is not disabled so that the computer does not give the error beep when the user presses ⌘S. Makes sense not to scare the user for a non-issue. ⌘S is also supposed to fall back to Save As for not yet designated documents, which only works if the command is not disabled. At least that's what I remember the old HUIG said. The new HUIG say Save is to be disabled when there are no changes, but Apple doesn't actually follow this. In my opinion the actual behavior on Mac and Windows and what I remember from the old HUIG is correct, and the OS X HUIG are wrong.

Goldfinger · Dec 19, 2006, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by residentEvil

my boss double-clicks links in webpages to follow the link; but will single-click an icon on his desktop...not sure where he got that habit from; as that doesn't work in the default windows world.

Heh, my dad tends to do the same. He also does that when he clicks on icons in the dock when he's in OSX. He's mostly on Windows though.

ghporter · 04:54 PM

What harm does it do to allow the user to save a file that has no (visible to the user) changes? Why is this such an issue for you?

Edit: I forgot to mention that Word (in Windows) DOES keep track of whether or not your document has been changed. You can save all you want, but if it has not been changed, Word will simply close the document when you request it. Otherwise it will ask you if you want to save it. Again, what harm does it do to let you save "no changes?"

Big Mac · Dec 19, 2006, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

What harm does it do to allow the user to save a file that has no (visible to the user) changes? Why is this such an issue for you?

Edit: I forgot to mention that Word (in Windows) DOES keep track of whether or not your document has been changed. You can save all you want, but if it has not been changed, Word will simply close the document when you request it. Otherwise it will ask you if you want to save it. Again, what harm does it do to let you save "no changes?"

The reason why it bothers me is because if there are no changes, the application should visibly show that fact to the user. Unfortunately, Apple's own apps do not follow this Mac convention, so I should take Apple to task for this as well.

- - e r i k - - · Dec 19, 2006, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

http://kefka.ag.iastate.edu/savenogray.png
ZOMG APPLES DEVELOPS ARE LAZY !ELEVEN!!

Uhm. That's a newly created document. Of course you might want to save it. Saving it here gives it a filename, which is the starting point for a document - i.e. you might want to name it before you start working on it.

If you open an already document and there are no changes made, the save function should rightfully be greyed out. I suggest you read up on some basic UI design before you sputter out your layman ignorance.

turtle777 · Dec 19, 2006, 06:14 PM

That's it. I'm switching to Hampstor OS.

-t

TETENAL · Dec 19, 2006, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

The reason why it bothers me is because if there are no changes, the application should visibly show that fact to the user. Unfortunately, Apple's own apps do not follow this Mac convention, so I should take Apple to task for this as well.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

I suggest you read up on some basic UI design before you sputter out your layman ignorance.

I think I have given pretty good reasons why the Save command should not be disabled. You need to bring something more substantial than name calling to refute that.

- - e r i k - - · Dec 19, 2006, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I think I have given pretty good reasons why the Save command should not be disabled. You need to bring something more substantial than name calling to refute that.

No. The only reason you gave is so that the system won't beep, which it doesn't do anyway. The Save As… fallback was exactly what I was addressing in my post.

Saving a document with no changes is completely useless, and can be potentially confusing to a user. If I can continually save a document, how do I know when it it is really "saved"?

- - e r i k - - · Dec 19, 2006, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

What harm does it do to allow the user to save a file that has no (visible to the user) changes? Why is this such an issue for you?

a) The uncertainty created by continually allowing saves.
b) Hard-drive wear and tear

kmkkid · Dec 19, 2006, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Uhm. That's a newly created document. Of course you might want to save it. Saving it here gives it a filename, which is the starting point for a document - i.e. you might want to name it before you start working on it.

If you open an already document and there are no changes made, the save function should rightfully be greyed out. I suggest you read up on some basic UI design before you sputter out your layman ignorance.

That's nice and all but as I said above, TextEdit DOES NOT disable saving even after opening an existing document without making changes.

TETENAL · Dec 19, 2006, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

No. The only reason you gave is so that the system won't beep, which it doesn't do anyway.

My Mac beeps when I press shortcut commands for disabled menu items.

The Save As… fallback was exactly what I was addressing in my post.

The system can't fallback if the command is disabled in the first place.

Saving a document with no changes is completely useless,

Saving a document with no changes is completely harmless

and can be potentially confusing to a user.

Not being able to save a document can be confusing (and scary) to a user.

If I can continually save a document, how do I know when it it is really "saved"?

- - e r i k - - · Dec 19, 2006, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

My Mac beeps when I press shortcut commands for disabled menu items.

Mine doesn't. What program are you using where this happens? I just tested this in Photoshop and Preview (two well-behaved apps in this sense) with no warnings whatsoever. In fact I rarely hear my system beeping at all these days come to think about it. And yes, my alert level is at 100%.

Sure your Mac is not running OS 9 where I know this was the case?

Originally Posted by TETENAL

The system can't fallback if the command is disabled in the first place.

Read my post again. That was EXACTLY my point! We are on the SAME page here. New documents should absolutely have save enabled.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Saving a document with no changes is completely harmless

Patently wrong. Apart from the obvious cofusion that can arise to when a document is saved or not, if the file in question is larger than your average text-file (say a 450 MB Photoshop file or a 12GB uncompressed movie) you'll have a lot of unnecessary writing to disk.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Not being able to save a document can be confusing (and scary) to a user.

The change-dot is useful and a true UI-innovation, but again not universally used or even understood.

Why are we even arguing this? There is absolutely no reason why a non-changed, non-new document should be able to be saved. The new guidelines have got it right. Even if Apple isn't following them yet (shame on QT Player, TextEdit and Pages).

TETENAL · Dec 20, 2006, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Mine doesn't. What program are you using where this happens?

I tested this a little bit more. It beeps in Cocoa applications, but not Carbon. If you haven't heard it beep yet, that's because you're not using proper Mac applications.

Sure your Mac is not running OS 9 where I know this was the case?

Reported. That will earn you an infraction.

Read my post again. That was EXACTLY my point! We are on the SAME page here. New documents should absolutely have save enabled.

I changed my mind. If that is the behavior you are going after this is probably how it should be.

Patently wrong. Apart from the obvious cofusion that can arise to when a document is saved or not, if the file in question is larger than your average text-file (say a 450 MB Photoshop file or a 12GB uncompressed movie) you'll have a lot of unnecessary writing to disk.

If the file is saved already obviously the program doesn't have to write anything to disk at all.

The change-dot is useful and a true UI-innovation, but again not universally used or even understood.

Not implementing the dot is more lazy than not disabling the Save command. Luckily it is widely supported these days.

- - e r i k - - · Dec 20, 2006, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I tested this a little bit more. It beeps in Cocoa applications, but not Carbon. If you haven't heard it beep yet, that's because you're not using proper Mac applications.

Hmmm. You seem to be correct in that. What a strange inconsistency.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Reported. That will earn you an infraction.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I changed my mind. If that is the behavior you are going after this is probably how it should be.

Are we in agreement here or not?

Originally Posted by TETENAL

If the file is saved already obviously the program doesn't have to write anything to disk at all.

If the file is saved, and it doesn't need to write anything at all, why have a useless command available? It's just poor UI-design, that's all.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Not implementing the dot is more lazy than not disabling the Save command. Luckily it is widely supported these days.

Yes. That is indeed lucky. The dot is good

TETENAL · Dec 20, 2006, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Are we in agreement here or not?

If the Save command is available for documents that do not yet have a file, then yes, we are in agreement.

- - e r i k - - · Dec 20, 2006, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

If the Save command is available for documents that do not yet have a file, then yes, we are in agreement.

Haha. Then why didn't you just say so in the first place? D'oh!