[design219]

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

90+ thousand dollars. Sound reasonable?

[Mithras]

See also:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...-electric-car/

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Mithras 

See also:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...-electric-car/

See also: Good freakin' memory.

[centerchannel68]

Before clicking on this thread I knew it'd be about that Tesla roadster. And I remember the last thread. Just to refresh your memory, on why this car is stupid:

if you put heat in, it will have ZERO range.

That's the problem with electric vehicles. Do you konw that the appliance that uses some of the most power in your house is hte toaster? Know why? ELECTRIC HEAT REQUIRES A SHITLOAD OF POWER. If you have a heater in ANY electric car it's range is going to be decimated. Throw in headlights and a radio, adn it's even worse. We just DO NOT HAVE the battery technology required to make this a viable alternative, at this time. The only place this would be nice would be an island community where everything is always close and the weahter is always nice.

They ADVERTISE a 250 range miles in a best case scenario. In warm weather, during the day, no a/c, no heat, no headlights. Steady speed. Try accelerating a few times, with the lights on, in cold weather, and expect the range to be UNDER HALF THAT.

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by Quake4SMP 

if you put heat in, it will have ZERO range.

That's the problem with electric vehicles. Do you konw that the appliance that uses some of the most power in your house is hte toaster? Know why? ELECTRIC HEAT REQUIRES A SHITLOAD OF POWER. If you have a heater in ANY electric car it's range is going to be decimated. Throw in headlights and a radio, adn it's even worse. We just DO NOT HAVE the battery technology required to make this a viable alternative, at this time. The only place this would be nice would be an island community where everything is always close and the weahter is always nice.

i like this car, i have a feeling you're just looking at the price tag, and are like, ****, i can not afford it, let me try and make it have a bad reputation like i do with everything else i can't afford

[Gossamer]

No, he just hates everything.

I think this car is a great step forward in the technology. It's not for most people due to its impracticality, but it's stupid to condemn it because it's not perfect. It's a step.

[Dakar²]

Why did his nick change to Quake4SMP?

[brassplayersrock²]

because in the other thread he posted the exact same same dribble (which has been clearly c&p from that thread to this one) under that user name, which was banninated

[Dakar²]

Ah.

[strictlyplaid]

Actually, I thought of something else when I read the thread title.

It's electric!

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock 

i like this car, i have a feeling you're just looking at the price tag, and are like, ****, i can not afford it, let me try and make it have a bad reputation like i do with everything else i can't afford

Nope. Trust me, if I had 100 billion trillion dollars, I would not buy one of those cars. Electric cars are a great idea, and a huge step forward.... so long as you don't understand anything about electricity, batteries, cold cranking amps, or enviromental impacts of batteries that only last a few years at a time and increased strain on an electricity grid primarily powered by coal burning powerplants.

[design219]

I didn't know about the previous thread.

I think making an electric verhicle look like more than a clunky box is a vital step in making electric cars more appealing to the American market. There may be issues, but I would still drive one if I could afford to buy it.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Nope. Trust me, if I had 100 billion trillion dollars, I would not buy one of those cars. Electric cars are a great idea, and a huge step forward.... so long as you don't understand anything about electricity, batteries, cold cranking amps, or enviromental impacts of batteries that only last a few years at a time and increased strain on an electricity grid primarily powered by coal burning powerplants.

and what would your ANGRY dollars buy if you had a billion trillion dollars???? Seriously.

Oh, and I haven't used the heater in my car in over a year, and my last two cars had non-functioning heaters. Sign me up for a Tesla Roadster, Ca$h says it's okay that I have one! (even though I'll have a car that a 100-billion-trillionaire wouldn't want)

The Tesla Roadster is a great step forward.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

No, he just hates everything.

I think this car is a great step forward in the technology. It's not for most people due to its impracticality, but it's stupid to condemn it because it's not perfect. It's a step.

How is this a step forward? Fast electric cars have been around for quite a while.

The AC TZero was around since 1997, and could out accelerate porche's, ferraris, etc.

http://www.forbes.com/resourceful/20...l_1021vow.html

There are lots more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliica



http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/t...t-electric-car

http://news.com.com/Second-fastest+s...3-6119237.html

I know there are a TON more from the 90s, but I can't find links to them at teh moment. If you don't believe me, go cehck out a popular science from your local library. Flip near the back. Tons of ads for goofy high performance electric vehicles.

So yeah, I don't get how this car is a 'step forward' considering this type of thing has been available for so long. Actually, since this type of thing has been around so long, and apparently none of you have heard about any of the other ones, MAYBE, just maybe, there's a reason that those 'others' didn't catch on, eh?

[::maroma::]

Somehow I find it hard to believe that all of these car manufacturers are spending billions of dollars developing electric vehicles when its supposedly common knowledge that they are worthless piles of crap if you turn the heater on.

Sorry Ca$h, without links to verify your claims, they sound pretty bogus.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

and what would your ANGRY dollars buy if you had a billion trillion dollars???? Seriously.

Oh, and I haven't used the heater in my car in over a year, and my last two cars had non-functioning heaters. Sign me up for a Tesla Roadster, Ca$h says it's okay that I have one! (even though I'll have a car that a 100-billion-trillionaire wouldn't want)

The Tesla Roadster is a great step forward.

Probably a ferrari 355. And a last gen RX7. And a Omni GLHS. And an 850Csi. And a contour SVT. And a 1970 Cuda convertable. Man. I could just keep going. Lots and lots of cars. And dude, you live in MIAMI. Of course heaters aren't important to you. But most of the population does NOT live in miami. In fact, I'd say the majority of people who could afford this car are probably NOT living in the south.

[design219]

Bring on global warming... and screw the car heaters!

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

Somehow I find it hard to believe that all of these car manufacturers are spending billions of dollars developing electric vehicles when its supposedly common knowledge that they are worthless piles of crap if you turn the heater on.

Sorry Ca$h, without links to verify your claims, they sound pretty bogus.

Who spent a billion dollars? GM spent a billion dollars developing the EV1, but that's all I know if. Right now, almost NOBODY is developing electric cars, because every major carmaker has come to the conclusion that they suck. Speaking of which, here's what an owner of an EV1, which is basically the same technology as the tesla roadster, had to say about it:

1999 Generation 2 EV1 with NiMH batteries - test drive

Here's a quote for you:

"freeway commuting with minimal stop and go: 130-150 miles per charge
city driving mixed with freeway (including "performance demonstrations"): 100-130 miles per charge
worst case - hard use including driving in the hills: 75-100 miles per charge"

Notice how there's a range here. Just like I had been saying, highway use= best possible range. Accelearting more frequently, and harder, ruins this range because it requires more power.

Quote from link in a previous post:

"if you accelerate it like an Italian exotic, or even take it on a hilly route, that range can decrease by up to about 20%. :

[centerchannel68]

Also, here's a faq about owning an electric car, and what to expect:

EV-1 Frequently Asked Questions

[Doofy]

No need for heaters? I bet you're gonna need the aircon then.

The other problem with these vehicle is stupid people. Stupid people crossing the road and only listening, not looking for approaching vehicles.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

The other problem with these vehicle is stupid people. Stupid people crossing the road and only listening, not looking for approaching vehicles.

Yeah, I suppose that could damage the car.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Who spent a billion dollars? GM spent a billion dollars developing the EV1, but that's all I know if. Right now, almost NOBODY is developing electric cars, because every major carmaker has come to the conclusion that they suck. Speaking of which, here's what an owner of an EV1, which is basically the same technology as the tesla roadster, had to say about it:

1999 Generation 2 EV1 with NiMH batteries - test drive

Here's a quote for you:

"freeway commuting with minimal stop and go: 130-150 miles per charge
city driving mixed with freeway (including "performance demonstrations"): 100-130 miles per charge
worst case - hard use including driving in the hills: 75-100 miles per charge"

Notice how there's a range here. Just like I had been saying, highway use= best possible range. Accelearting more frequently, and harder, ruins this range because it requires more power.

Quote from link in a previous post:

"if you accelerate it like an Italian exotic, or even take it on a hilly route, that range can decrease by up to about 20%. :

So you post stats about a car made 8 years ago and claim that the current car, that offers a 67% increase in total range, is not a step forward?
Your bias is showing here (and nice job trying to incorporate your hated of the south).

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

So you post stats about a car made 8 years ago and claim that the current car, that offers a 67% increase in total range, is not a step forward?
Your bias is showing here (and nice job trying to incorporate your hated of the south).

No, I posted stats about many cars with similar milage and performance to this roadster, made years ago, which you either didn't click on, or ignored completley.

Then you focused on the EV1, which I brought into the discussion not because of it's perforamance or range, but things that AFFECT it's performance or range.... which none of you would listen to in the previous thread.

That 67% increase is due to the batteries. It has lithium-ion batteries, instead of lead acid or Nimh batteries.... HOWEVER, the problems are still the same: Acceleration and stop and go driving kill the range. Headlights kill the range. Air conditioning or heating kills the range. And that 250 mile advertised range is definteily going to be on the 'top end' of what this vehicle is capable of.

So please, pretty please, with a cherry on top, please tell me how this is a step forward considering high performance electric cars have been around with similar performance and range for over a decade. And I'm NOT talking about the god damn EV1, I'm talking about all the other links I posted in here, which you completley ignored. Nice strawman argument.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No need for heaters? I bet you're gonna need the aircon then.

The other problem with these vehicle is stupid people. Stupid people crossing the road and only listening, not looking for approaching vehicles.

For some years now, most of the noise generated by moving cars on average comes from the TYRES, not the engine.

People will learn - they have been known to adapt in the past. People use earpod headphones out-of-doors all the time, too, you know, and have for three decades.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

That 67% increase is due to the batteries. It has lithium-ion batteries, instead of lead acid or Nimh batteries.... HOWEVER, the problems are still the same: Acceleration and stop and go driving kill the range. Headlights kill the range. Air conditioning or heating kills the range. And that 250 mile advertised range is definteily going to be on the 'top end' of what this vehicle is capable of.

Did the older EVs have regenerative breaking? I know the Teslas do, and that should do a lot towards removing the problems with stop and go trafffic.

Also, I'm sure the older EVs used traditional headlights. Battery technology is not the only improvement we've made since then. We have much more efficient lights now as well. AC and heat are definitely still issues however. I think I read something about how the Tesla roadster handles heat a little while ago, but I don't remember what they said. I'll see if I can find it again.

[centerchannel68]

Yes, they did. They had:

Aluminum frame
Dent resistant side-panels
Anti-lock brakes
Traction control
Heat pump (Heater/AC)
Keyless entry / keyless ignition
Special one-way thermal glass to allow for better heat rejection
Regenerative braking
Very low drag coefficient - Cd~0.19, CdA~0.36 m² (3.95 ft²)
Super light alloy mag wheels
Self sealing & low-rolling resistance tires (developed by Michelin)
Automated tire pressure loss warning system
Magnesium framed seats
Time programmable HVAC (cabin heating or cooling) settings

They were designed basically for lithium ion batteries, but the batteries weren't available yet, so tehy had to make do with other types of batteries. Almost every single EV1 has been destroyed, since GM only allowed 'leases' for 3 years, then crushed all of them. The only ones left are ones that have been disabled, and are in museums or something. Kinda sad really, because it'd be neat to see how well the EV1 worked with lithium ions.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika 

For some years now, most of the noise generated by moving cars on average comes from the TYRES, not the engine.

From a distance, it's tyres.
On the ground, close up, it's engine. At least it was last time I took the ears for a stroll around the town.

Originally Posted by analogika 

People will learn - they have been known to adapt in the past. People use earpod headphones out-of-doors all the time, too, you know, and have for three decades.

I'll concede that.

[nonhuman]

Hmm, all I was able to find on the HVAC for the Tesla Roadster was this from the Tesla Motors blog:

First, the heating. This is relatively straightforward. We replace the heater matrix, which would have had engine coolant running through it, with an electric heater that has 400 volts running through it. The clever bit of the design is to ensure that we have a safe system that also minimises the drain on the car’s battery pack (or Energy Storage System (ESS), as we call it).

So we use what’s called a Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) heater. It’s basically a resistor that increases its resistance as it heats up, thus limiting the current it can draw. That way it will never get too hot. Why do we use 400 volts for the heater? Well, unlike every other car, we’ve got 400 volts available, so we might as well use that — it means considerably reduced currents along the cables that run from the ESS at the back of the car to the heater at the front. And with the heater capable of pumping out 4 kilowatts, that should keep the cabin nice and toasty.

Doesn't say how it affects range, but I imagine there must be some improvement. But the affect of the secondary systems on range has been my biggest concern about the Teslas too. I still think it's a great idea though, and I can't wait to see the finished product and get some real life performance

[centerchannel68]

The big thing about all this is it never says how much power the batteries can store. It says under full acceleration, it can use almost 200 kW. Also, it says it has LED taillights, but as far as i can tell the headlights are still standard incandescent bulbs. The stereo will sap power also.

The weakest link? The batteries. Some lithium ions batteries have their capacity reduced by 20% after only a year of use. Some only last x amount of charge discharge cycles.... Tesla claims 500 cycles. So if you use it every other day, the batteries will only last about 3 years or so. What's even worse, is that in each car, there are SIX THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED AND THIRTY ONE lithium ion batteries. I wonder how much THAT is going to cost to get replaced, every 3 years. Yep, a HUGE step forward folks.

[Gossamer]

You're the only one that's claimed that it's a HUGE step forward. Once again, we shouldn't condemn new technology because it's not up to where we think it is. Give it time. Same with hybrids. Sure, they cost more to make and negatively affect the environment, but in time these things will get worked out.

[phantomdragonz]

if I were to make a car like this I would include some form of gas engine... a very small efficient gas or biodiesel engine... maybe one of those small turbines they were talking about using in laptops and the like...

it would be used for... recharging, heating etc... there have already been busses that have very efficient diesel engines that charge batteries at a constant RPM... then use the batteries to power electric wheels...

you could even park it and tell it to recharge the batteries while you work/eat/shop... and if it used biodiesel you could still keep away from foreign oil... or just make your own damn fuel...


Zach

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz 

if I were to make a car like this I would include some form of gas engine... a very small efficient gas or biodiesel engine... maybe one of those small turbines they were talking about using in laptops and the like...

it would be used for... recharging, heating etc... there have already been busses that have very efficient diesel engines that charge batteries at a constant RPM... then use the batteries to power electric wheels...

you could even park it and tell it to recharge the batteries while you work/eat/shop... and if it used biodiesel you could still keep away from foreign oil... or just make your own damn fuel...


Zach

Some people are already doing that. But the problem with that idea is that you're adding a bunch of weight to the car, and you need to find space to put that extra engine and fuel tank.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

You're the only one that's claimed that it's a HUGE step forward. Once again, we shouldn't condemn new technology because it's not up to where we think it is. Give it time. Same with hybrids. Sure, they cost more to make and negatively affect the environment, but in time these things will get worked out.

No, actually they won't. Hybrids are going bye bye, now that America is finally getting clean diesel fuel. Honda is dropping their hybrids in 2008, and switching to diesels. More power, torque, mpg, less cost to make, less complexity, less weight, and no replacing expensive batteries every few years. Electric cars will not be viable alternatives until someone revolutionizes the battery.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz 

if I were to make a car like this I would include some form of gas engine... a very small efficient gas or biodiesel engine... maybe one of those small turbines they were talking about using in laptops and the like...

it would be used for... recharging, heating etc... there have already been busses that have very efficient diesel engines that charge batteries at a constant RPM... then use the batteries to power electric wheels...

you could even park it and tell it to recharge the batteries while you work/eat/shop... and if it used biodiesel you could still keep away from foreign oil... or just make your own damn fuel...


Zach

That's exactly what a hybrid is.

Then you have two systems to do maintenence on, way more complexity, weight, etc.

The easiest way to increase performance while improving MPG is removing WEIGHT, and making cars smaller. My 89 accord is smaller than today's honda civic. My 89 accord is smaller than my 92 accord. The 89 is much more fun to drive, and is a lot more 'zippy' despite having less power. It also has better handling, and the braking is probably about the same. Why? IT IS SMALLER AND LIGHTER. We could ALL have cars that were fast, really fun to drive, safe, and achieved 50-70mpg TODAY, if it weren't for one thing: All the damn trucks/semis/suvs on the roads. The majority of semi loads could be done by rail if people would plan ahead a bit more, instead of wanting things NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW.

Weight is the enemy. "Adding lightness" improves EVERY aspect of performance.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

No, actually they won't. Hybrids are going bye bye, now that America is finally getting clean diesel fuel.

No they aren't.

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Honda is dropping their hybrids in 2008, and switching to diesels.

That's incorrect. Honda is expanding their hybrid line in 2008, and in 2009 is planning to release their first entirely hybrid based line to compete with the Prius.

I don't know how you make this stuff up.

[Sub]

I'm pretty sure it was a joke, chill out.

But perhaps I am supporting his joke because my friend and I both own diesel trucks...

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by goMac 

No they aren't.
That's incorrect. Honda is expanding their hybrid line in 2008, and in 2009 is planning to release their first entirely hybrid based line to compete with the Prius.
I don't know how you make this stuff up.

Accord Diesel in, Accord Hybrid out - Autoblog
Powered by (diesel) Honda - Autoblog

I misunderstood. It's just the accord hybrid they're killing, and replacing with a diesel. But..... once the axe starts swinging, I won't be suprised in the least to see all the hybrids go away, and diesels take over. It's much cheaper, from their perspective.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

porche's, ferraris, etc.

Aaaawoooooooooohhhhh!!!
Dude, honestly. German brands are not that difficult. Say it with me: a PORSCHE. Plural: two PORSCHE (cars).

PB.

[centerchannel68]

It was a typo. Take your meds.

[analogika]

A typo and a grammar ****.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Stop-and-go and hills reduce the range by 20%? Isn't that still better than the reduction in range those things cost gasoline cars? Doesn't A/C reduce gasoline cars' range too (not by as much probably, but significantly)? Are we arguing just for the sake of arguing?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Stop-and-go and hills reduce the range by 20%? Isn't that still better than the reduction in range those things cost gasoline cars? Doesn't A/C reduce gasoline cars' range too (not by as much probably, but significantly)?

A/C can add up to a quarter higher gasoline consumption, depending on original mileage.

[centerchannel68]

Dunno. My point is that 250 mile 'range' is suddenly going to be a LOT less. With a regular car, the 'top end' of the range is usually 400 miles or so, so using AC isn't as big of a deal.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Dunno. My point is that 250 mile 'range' is suddenly going to be a LOT less. With a regular car, the 'top end' of the range is usually 400 miles or so, so using AC isn't as big of a deal.

True but most people drive less than 100 miles in an average day. Electric cars are probably never going to be suitable for long range trips (unless we make some huge advancements in power storage and/or come up with some light and easy power generation method ie Mr. Fusion). They're for daily driving in the city.

[KeyLimePi]

wow, has nobody in this thread has seen 'Who Killed the Electric Car?'

[CreepDogg]

My wife and I share 2 cars. Let's say this car has a practical range of 150 miles - although I'd bet it's more even with reasonable accessory use. We could EASILY replace one car with an electric, because most driving is in the metro area on <150 mile trips. Now - this isn't an option RIGHT NOW, because a $90K toy isn't really an option for me, but Tesla has stated that they intend to use the sales of their $90K toys to fund the development of more mass-market cars. When that happens - and I believe it will in the next 5-7 years if not sooner, I'll be in line.

There are a significant number of people out there in situations like mine.

Are electrics ready for prime time as a direct, total replacement for ICE cars? Of course not. But I believe, with current technology, they could replace a significant number of cars on the road considering their true usage. And that would be a good start to influencing the way we use our resources.

[design219]

Exactly. I drive about 8 miles to work, and my wife and I could easily use an afforable version and still have a gas vehicle for longer travel.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Dunno. My point is that 250 mile 'range' is suddenly going to be a LOT less. With a regular car, the 'top end' of the range is usually 400 miles or so, so using AC isn't as big of a deal.

Even ignoring "the average person," when was the last time you drove more than 200 miles in one day?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

My wife and I share 2 cars. Let's say this car has a practical range of 150 miles - although I'd bet it's more even with reasonable accessory use. We could EASILY replace one car with an electric, because most driving is in the metro area on <150 mile trips. Now - this isn't an option RIGHT NOW, because a $90K toy isn't really an option for me, but Tesla has stated that they intend to use the sales of their $90K toys to fund the development of more mass-market cars. When that happens - and I believe it will in the next 5-7 years if not sooner, I'll be in line.

There are a significant number of people out there in situations like mine.

Are electrics ready for prime time as a direct, total replacement for ICE cars? Of course not. But I believe, with current technology, they could replace a significant number of cars on the road considering their true usage. And that would be a good start to influencing the way we use our resources.

This, I think, is why Tesla is more likely to succeed than past EV ventures. Starting with a high range luxury toy, the target market can actually afford their offering without really thinking about it.

I think their four-door sedan (code named WhiteStar) is supposed to be released next year for around $40k. And a year or two after that they plan on releasing an economy car.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

True but most people drive less than 100 miles in an average day. Electric cars are probably never going to be suitable for long range trips (unless we make some huge advancements in power storage and/or come up with some light and easy power generation method ie Mr. Fusion). They're for daily driving in the city.

Daily driving? In that case, according to Tesla the batteries would only last about 2 years, probably a little less. Then you'd have to replace all 6000+ of them.