[shifuimam]

Y'all, I need some input.

I'm thinking about selling my car (which I seriously, truly love) and getting something smaller and more economical (screw the environment...my gas bill is astronomical).

I have a 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GT right now, in official "Corvette Red". It has:

Spoiler
Sunroof
Alpine CD/MP3-CD head unit
Climate control
Black leather
Heated driver's seat
Power driver's seat
Power mirrors/locks/windows
Automatic transmission
Self-dimming mirror
Traction control
Fog lights
Auto on/off headlights
Head-up display
Upgraded anti-theft system (keys have chips in them to prevent jimmying the locks on the doors or starting the car with a false key)
DIC (Driver information console - keeps track of your MPG, miles left before you're out of gas, when you need your oil changed, and how many gallons of gas you've used)

I bought it a year ago and it had around 123,000 miles on it. Since then I've put about 12,000 miles on it, 90% of which has been interstate/highway driving. Tires are relatively new, brakes aren't bad, engine and transmission are running very well (recently had the engine flushed for carbon buildup, which really improved performance).

I was going to ask around $6,000 for it, but its private sale Blue Book value has dropped since I looked it up about six months ago - it's now allegedly worth around $4600.

So the question is, what would YOU pay for this car? It's in really good body condition and has a clean title.

[wolfen]

Am I wrong that Pontiac Grand-anythings have a horrible service record? I have heard so many horror stories and read ranting critiques.

I'd pay about $1000, if anything. That's alotta miles.

[d4nth3m4n]

$3500. with those miles something's about to go.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by wolfen 

Am I wrong that Pontiac Grand-anythings have a horrible service record? I have heard so many horror stories and read ranting critiques.

I'd pay about $1000, if anything. That's alotta miles.

Grand Ams are really, really shitty. Grand Prix SEs have the same engine as the Grand Am, and therefore are also quite unreliable.

The GT and GTP have the GM 3800 Type II engine, which I've been told is one of the best engines they ever put in a car. It's been used in a number of GM-made autos, just as an aside.

I haven't had any issues with the major components of this car. It really is incredibly fun to drive. The engine is extremely powerful (IMO, at least for a 4-door sedan) and accelerates really smoothly and quickly.

The interior is very obviously made by an American car manufacturer (GM and Ford just can't match the components Toyota and Honda put in their vehicles), but it's all in really good condition.

I'm hoping to get more than $1000...I sold a thirteen-year-old Nissan Maxima that was totaled (salvaged title and the back end was shifted about 8" to the passenger side of the car) with 166k miles for $800. I sold a totaled ten-year-old Maxima with 237,000 miles (again, salvaged title)for $1000 when I bought this Grand Prix...

[Railroader]

If it has the 3800 motor in it it still has about 300k more miles left in it. Is is super-charged?

If it is not the super-charged version then it is worth about $4600. With super-charger, about $5500. Remember, it is nearly 8 years old.

Regarding mileage, you should be getting around 26-28 mpg on the highway. That is if you aren't a lead foot. I think going with a smaller car and saving what little money you will on gas would be a major compromise. You have a very comfortable and fun to drive car there. But a bit of a speeding ticket magnet in that color.

[Railroader]

Old-timers in GM call that engine the "One Gallon" engine as 3.8L = 1 US Gallon.

I did a lot of the testing on the rockers, belt tensioner, and oil pump for that model of engine. I also did a lot of work on the emissions testing. If a test engine didn't make it to 500k miles it was torn down and inspected under a microscope. But we rarely had to do that.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

If it has the 3800 motor in it it still has about 300k more miles left in it. Is is super-charged?

If it is not the super-charged version then it is worth about $4600. With super-charger, about $5500. Remember, it is nearly 8 years old.

It's the GT, not the GTP - so no supercharged engine. Although, the supercharged takes premium fuel, so it would have been a tradeoff..

Regarding mileage, you should be getting around 26-28 mpg on the highway. That is if you aren't a lead foot.

I get about 23-25mpg highway. My brother has a 1999 Grand Prix GT coupe, and his mileage is closer to the 26-28 range. Perhaps the 4D sedan has enough extra body weight that it brings down the mileage somewhat?

I tend to drive around 75-77mph on the 40-mile drive to and from work every day. I'm pretty sure if I dropped that to 65, my mileage would improve.

I think going with a smaller car and saving what little money you will on gas would be a major compromise. You have a very comfortable and fun to drive car there. But a bit of a speeding ticket magnet in that color.

I don't know what I want to do yet. I was thinking I might look at smaller SUVs (Rav4, Hyundai Santa Fe, CR-V).

Part of the problem is also the size of my car. These Grand Prixs have a turning radius akin to a fricking semi tractor-trailer, and they ride really low to the ground (I've hit my share of curbs just by opening doors and whatnot - no real damage, but an annoyance all the same). I also rent a parking space with my apartment unit that is in a very tight parking garage, and having a more nimble car would be nice.

One of my coworkers just bought a Honda Civic with a four-cylinder engine, and he's mentioned he gets around 40mpg highway. That would be nice..

On the color choice - that's exactly what the dealer told me when I bought it. I've only gotten one ticket in this car, though, and I was blatantly speeding past a police officer waiting at an intersection. I'm an idiot like that.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Old-timers in GM call that engine the "One Gallon" engine as 3.8L = 1 US Gallon.

I did a lot of the testing on the rockers, belt tensioner, and oil pump for that model of engine. I also did a lot of work on the emissions testing. If a test engine didn't make it to 500k miles it was torn down and inspected under a microscope. But we rarely had to do that.

Verrrry interesting...

What's your profession? I am definitely surprised to hear that this thing could last to 500,000. Plus, since I'm not the first owner, I don't know its hidden condition when I bought it. The carfax report was clear, and since I got that carbon buildup flushed out, it's been running fantastically (is that a word?), but you never know...

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I get about 23-25mpg highway. My brother has a 1999 Grand Prix GT coupe, and his mileage is closer to the 26-28 range. Perhaps the 4D sedan has enough extra body weight that it brings down the mileage somewhat?

No, you must accelerate quickly or don't use cruise control very often. I used to own a '98 Bonneville which was a larger heavier vehicle than what you have, with the same engine, and I would get about 30 mpg if I babied it. I got 33 mpg once on a 1200 mile trip.

[Lateralus]

Speaking of V6 3800 mileage...

I've been teaching myself how to drive like an adult lately and got some pretty amazing (I think) results with my last tank. I averaged 24.7mpg. Not bad from a Series 1 3800 with 175k on it me thinks.

That's up from all-time low of 15mpg back in February.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Verrrry interesting...

What's your profession? I am definitely surprised to hear that this thing could last to 500,000. Plus, since I'm not the first owner, I don't know its hidden condition when I bought it. The carfax report was clear, and since I got that carbon buildup flushed out, it's been running fantastically (is that a word?), but you never know...

I used to work For General Motors Powertrain Group Research and Engineering as an Experimental Engineering Test Mechanic. I helped develop experimental and concept cars for all of GM's divisions, including overseas. For the most part I worked on experimental test engines and engine components. We would build and test engines or components that engineers would design. I retired (early) last summer.

I have no idea how you would do a "carbon buildup flush". We call that "pedal to the metal". Are you sure they didn't just change the spark plugs and wires?

Also, you didn't hear this from me, but a half pint of GM's auto tranny fluid run through an engine with a full tank of gas will clean the combustion chamber. But this is a big no-no. Do not do this. Ever. Very bad emissions-wise.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

Speaking of V6 3800 mileage...

I've been teaching myself how to drive like an adult lately and got some pretty amazing (I think) results with my last tank. I averaged 24.7mpg. Not bad from a Series 1 3800 with 175k on it me thinks.

That's up from all-time low of 15mpg back in February.

Just do as my grandfather taught me. Plug your ears*, (that is, if you weren't already deaf like he was), and pretend there's an egg between your foot and the accelerator.


* the sound of horns from behind you will be disturbing.

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

...a half pint of GM's auto tranny fluid run through en engine with a full tank of gas will clean the combustion chamber...

...O RLY

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Just do as my grandfather taught me. Plug your ears*, (that is, if you weren't already deaf like he was), and pretend there's an egg between your foot and the accelerator.


* the sound of horns from behind you will be disturbing.

So very true.

I used to hold around 70-75 on the highway. I've dropped it to 55 to get the results I've been getting lately. 70-75 yielded around 2200 RPM. Dropping it to 55 yields around 1500 RPM.

But that's not good enough for me. The car hits 4th at between 50 and 55 depending on how I massage the pedal. And 1500 RPM seems to be what it holds at when it enters 4th gear. But, I've noticed that if I allow it to slip into 4th and then ease off just right toward 48-50 MPH, I can get away with around 1250 RPM. And that's pretty damn close to idle.

Can't wait to see the mileage I get with this current tank.

Aside from the better fuel milage, I've noticed that driving more slowly and not caring about racing whoever is next to you does wonders for your stress level.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

...O RLY

SSHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[shabbasuraj]

$2000

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

No, you must accelerate quickly or don't use cruise control very often. I used to own a '98 Bonneville which was a larger heavier vehicle than what you have, with the same engine, and I would get about 30 mpg if I babied it. I got 33 mpg once on a 1200 mile trip.

I set my cruise to 75mph every morning and don't change unless (a) passing a semi or (b) letting someone pass me. Maybe something is amiss with my car?

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I have no idea how you would do a "carbon buildup flush". We call that "pedal to the metal". Are you sure they didn't just change the spark plugs and wires?

That's what my mechanic called it, I think. Basically I was having trouble accelerating from a complete stop or slow speed. It wasn't a transmission issue - it was shifting fine. I would have to really pump or push hard on the gas pedal to get the thing to go, and it would sort of jerk and then move. I took it in, they told me I had carbon buildup on the engine (or maybe it was the fuel system? This was like two months ago, and I've eaten since then) and it needed removing to make the problem go away. That particular fix cost me like $120, and my car drove perfectly afterwards and the problem never reappeared, so I'm going to assume that whatever they did was indeed the right thing.

Also, you didn't hear this from me, but a half pint of GM's auto tranny fluid run through an engine with a full tank of gas will clean the combustion chamber. But this is a big no-no. Do not do this. Ever. Very bad emissions-wise.

I'd say o rly and wtf to this, but others already did. I stick some STP fuel additive in my tank every month or so, but that's about the extent of "crap I put in my car that I normally wouldn't".

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

...not caring about racing whoever is next to you does wonders for your stress level.

Sacrelige! Must...beat...16-year-old...driving...Mustang...

[Lateralus]

Ah, you see... I let those people get away with pissing me off while I'm driving my personal car. But when I'm driving my FedEx truck I have my vengeance.

[sek929]

3500 because it has the 3.8.

3500 because it's a 7 year old Pontiac.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by sek929 

3500 because it has the 3.8.

3500 because it's a 7 year old Pontiac.

Jeez! That's way below blue book. I'd ask $4000 at least, but I'm starting to have second thoughts anyhow.

[Railroader]

Doing a quick search on autotrader.com for '00 Grand Prix GT yeilds them selling for around $5200 with your amount of mileage and options. SE models are selling around $4800.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Jeez! That's way below blue book. I'd ask $4000 at least, but I'm starting to have second thoughts anyhow.

Welcome to the resale value of American cars.

The 3.8 is a great engine (great is an understatement) but it's approaching 130K miles, and that ain't worth 5Gs in my book.

Not to say you can't find a buyer willing to pay it, but I wouldn't.

Ask for 5 grand and see who bites, I say if someone offers you 4000-4500 take it immediately since there is no point in letting a decent car sit around rusting.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Welcome to the resale value of American cars.

The 3.8 is a great engine (great is an understatement) but it's approaching 130K miles, and that ain't worth 5Gs in my book.

Not to say you can't find a buyer willing to pay it, but I wouldn't.

Ask for 5 grand and see who bites, I say if someone offers you 4000-4500 take it immediately since there is no point in letting a decent car sit around rusting.

Yeah...I was thinking about a $5000 OBO kind of thing, but after thinking about it some more, I think I'm going to keep the car for now. I really want to be able to put a down payment on a condo in the next two or three years, and spending a big chunk of my savings on a car right now wouldn't be the best way to work towards that goal.

All the info was useful, though, so thanks y'all.

[sek929]

If it runs solid for you definitely keep it. The only reason I sold my Intrepid with 170K is that it needed new upper and lower ball joints on both sides. Besides that expensive fix the car ran great.

If she still works hard for you and doesn't leave you stranded you might as well keep it.

[Big-C]

I'm no car expert, but I do know that Carmax will give you a free quote. If there's one near you, that might help you get a baseline determination of what your car is worth and what you should ask for it (although it sounds like you have given up on selling it right now).

I'm only throwing this idea out there because I did this expecting to get only about 2/3 of what they ended up offering me for the car.

Good luck.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

Ah, you see... I let those people get away with pissing me off while I'm driving my personal car. But when I'm driving my FedEx truck I have my vengeance.

[centerchannel68]

Keeping a car and driving it into the ground is more environmentally friendly than any new car available today. Why?

Check this out:

The Environmental Cost
of One Car

Extracting Raw Materials:
26.5 tonnes of waste
922 cubic metres of polluted air
Transporting Raw Materials:
12 litres of crude oil in the ocean
425 million cubic litres of polluted air
Producing the Car:
1.5 tonnes of waste, 74 million cubic litres of polluted air
Driving the Car:
18.4 kilos of abrasive waste, 1,016 million cubic litres of polluted air
Disposing of the Car:
102 million cubic litres of polluted air

A car causes more pollution before it's ever driven than in it's entire lifetime of use. We need to quit buying new cars. Right now the production is just so large that used car prices are falling to the point where they get scrapped not because they're totally broken, but because a simple fix exceeds the market value. It's sad really. I've seen tons of really nice fixable cars in junkyards.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

The Environmental Cost
of One Car

Extracting Raw Materials:
26.5 tonnes of waste
922 cubic metres of polluted air
Transporting Raw Materials:
12 litres of crude oil in the ocean
425 million cubic litres of polluted air
Producing the Car:
1.5 tonnes of waste, 74 million cubic litres of polluted air
Driving the Car:
18.4 kilos of abrasive waste, 1,016 million cubic litres of polluted air
Disposing of the Car:
102 million cubic litres of polluted air

I don't understand your weird units.

[macintologist]

Just keep your damn car and when you actually have to buy another one, buy a Honda or Toyota. I don't know why anyone would buy a GM POS, sigh.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Just keep your damn car and when you actually have to buy another one, buy a Honda or Toyota. I don't know why anyone would buy a GM POS, sigh.

Maybe because the quality and efficiency of some GM vehicles are better than some models by Toyota or Honda?

Perhaps the car is cheaper or more comfortable?

Perhaps they aren't brainwashed?

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Maybe because the quality and efficiency of some GM vehicles are better than some models by Toyota or Honda?

Perhaps the car is cheaper or more comfortable?

Perhaps they aren't brainwashed?

Like what? The Cobalt?

GM makes good trucks, and that's it.

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Maybe because the quality and efficiency of some GM vehicles are better than some models by Toyota or Honda?

Perhaps the car is cheaper or more comfortable?

Perhaps they aren't brainwashed?

Don't bother confronting macintologist. He has a habit of posting and running since he isn't capable of actually refuting or backing up anything that is said.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Maybe because the quality and efficiency of some GM vehicles are better than some models by Toyota or Honda?

Perhaps the car is cheaper or more comfortable?

Perhaps they aren't brainwashed?

And suffer from horrid resale value? No thanks. Apart from Cadillac, what vehicle are you speaking of that is of better quality? Or more efficient?

GM's lineup sucks right now, which is why they're doing horribly. That's okay though. They need this period of suckyness in order to improve their products.

[macroy]

If you decide to sell again....

Check out the prices of similar vehicles in your area using cars.com and autotrader.com (basically, your competitors).. then price accordingly.

Carmax used to be good.. for trade-in value. But they've since changed their strategy and now are not as competitive with buying cars, although they are now more competitive with selling them. So I hear...

[centerchannel68]

If you're selling, look up the blue book price from KBB.com. Their prices are always high, which lets you bargain your direction. When buying, look up the value on edmunds.com. Their prices are always low, which lets you bargain in your direction.

Simple.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

Don't bother confronting macintologist. He has a habit of posting and running since he isn't capable of actually refuting or backing up anything that is said.

So, wouldn't that actually be against the rules. Wouldn't it be considered baiting? I was banned for less offenses.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Like what? The Cobalt?

GM makes good trucks, and that's it.

Malibu and Buick LaCrosse. And GM produces more cars that average higher then 30 mpg than any other manufacturer.

GM's trucks are average (which is actually still pretty good).

EDIT: Your advice for her to keep the car is probably the best advice and the cheapest in the long run. Along with Rob's rant (correct this time) that it's better for the environment to keep it as well.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

And suffer from horrid resale value? No thanks. Apart from Cadillac, what vehicle are you speaking of that is of better quality? Or more efficient?

GM's lineup sucks right now, which is why they're doing horribly. That's okay though. They need this period of suckyness in order to improve their products.

Why are you worried about resale? Are you trying to argue a point you don't agree with? If anything you should be happy that resale value is less as that means you get a better deal if you buy one used.

GM parts are cheaper than foreign manufacturers. Labor is usually cheaper as well. And it is easier to find mechanics that work on them.

RE Quality: see my response to sek929.

But guys, let's get past macintologist's derailment here ok?

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

And GM produces more cars that average higher then 30 mpg than any other manufacturer.

Let me guess, GM produces more cars than any other manufacturer.

I'd be more interested as to which manufacturer has a higher % of their cars that average 30 mpg.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

And GM produces more cars that average higher then 30 mpg than any other manufacturer.

So what? They also produce the H2, H3, and soon the hummer H4. Not to mention escalades, silverados, etc. GM is far from a 'green company'. HONDA, not GM, was listed as the most fuel efficient car company in the world. Their corporate average mpg is higher than anybody elses.

http://corporate.honda.com/press/art...d=200704033945

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Let me guess, GM produces more cars than any other manufacturer.

I'd be more interested as to which manufacturer has a higher % of their cars that average 30 mpg.

Actually, Toyota just passed GM in terms of production:

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/24/t...rlds-top-auto/

As for your second comment, it's honda.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

As for your second comment, it's honda.

Well, your link didn't handle my specific question, so I'm not sure about that.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Let me guess, GM produces more cars than any other manufacturer.

Not to mention they count Cobalt LS, 1LT, 2LT, 3LT, LTZ, SS, Malibu LS, LT, LTZ, SS, Maxx, etc each as a different model. Here's a link for you Dakar

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

As for your second comment, it's honda.

Check my link, it's Mini. Honda is #7 (Although Acura is #3).

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

Check my link, it's Mini. Honda is #7 (Although Acura is #3).

What the hell do they make other than the mini?

If you count companies that manufacture 10 or more cars, looks like VW wins hands-down. Though even there, I wonder if they have a few diesel models skewing the numbers.

[Dakarʒ]

The ad does not mention that GM also leads the industry in the number of models that get an EPA estimated 29 miles per gallon or less. What? It turns out GM can win either side of this issue because GM has significantly more models than any other car company. In other words, "We have the most models above 30 mpg! We have the most models below 30 mpg! How? Because we have, by far, the most models!"

Boy, I spotted that bullshit a mile away. I'm a ****ing genius.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

What the hell do they make other than the mini?

Well they make the Cooper, Cooper S, and a convertible version of each. I'm not sure what the other 4 are.

[Dakarʒ]

Gah.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Well, your link didn't handle my specific question, so I'm not sure about that.

Um.... what?

"Honda, the most fuel efficient car company in America1*"

*:Based upon the average sales-weighted fuel consumption for 2006 model year passenger-car and light-truck fleets sold in the U.S. based on CAFE reports.

Also:

"Honda remains the greenest U.S. automaker. The company installs clean technology across its entire fleet of cars and trucks and that consistency makes it a top environmental performer. Honda is one of only two automakers to have better-than-average global warming scores in every class of vehicles it sold in MY2005," said Don MacKenzie, a vehicles engineer with the Union of Concerned Scientists. "In addition, Honda continues to have the best smog score in four out of the five classes."

American Honda has applied leading-edge fuel efficient technologies to the full range of its Honda and Acura products, resulting in industry-leading corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) as determined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (33.9 mpg and 24.7 mpg, respectively, for model year 2006 passenger cars and light trucks).

In May 2006, Honda became the first automaker to publicly announce voluntary targets for the reduction of CO2 emissions by 2010 from both its products and production operations. Specifically, the company is targeting a five percent reduction in CO2 emissions for its global automobile fleet from 2005 levels, on top of a five percent reduction achieved in the 2000-2005 time period. The company also will work toward a 10 percent reduction for motorcycles and power products from 2000 levels by 2010.

In order to achieve this voluntary CO2 reduction goal through the increased fuel efficiency of its automobiles, Honda will introduce a series of new fuel-efficient technologies and products, including intelligent engine systems; second-generation Variable Cylinder Management (VCM); a new, more affordable gas-electric hybrid vehicle in 2009; and a new clean diesel vehicle in about two years with high fuel efficiency and ultra-low emissions equivalent to a gasoline engine vehicle.

Further, the global average of CO2 emissions to produce one automobile at Honda plants declined by approximately 5 percent during the five year period up to 2005. Honda is working toward a further reduction by 5 percent or more by 2010, to achieve a total global reduction of 10 percent compared to the level of 2000. For motorcycle and power product production, Honda set goals to reduce CO2 emissions by 20 percent in each area.

Reducing Smog-Forming Emissions
Honda has long led the industry in reducing smog-forming vehicle emissions, including the very first LEV, ULEV, SULEV and AT-PZEV vehicles made available to U.S. consumers. For the time period covered by the UCS analysis, 99.9 percent of all model year 2005 Honda and Acura vehicles complied with the 2007 U.S. EPA Tier 2 emissions standards. To achieve the Tier 2 BIN 5 classification, a vehicle must reduce NOx (oxides of nitrogen) emissions by at least 75 percent from the previous standard.


For the past eight years, Honda also has marketed the ultra-clean, natural gas-powered Civic GX, the only dedicated alternative fuel vehicle available to U.S. consumers in all 50 states. Further, the Civic GX is marketed to consumers in California and New York with the innovative Phill™ home refueling appliance. Natural gas is an abundant and clean-burning domestic fuel with 25 percent less CO2 emissions and 30-50 percent lower operating costs than gasoline.

Honda is also developing new technologies for cleaner, more efficient energy generation. This includes a third-generation Home Energy Station (HES) for refueling fuel cell vehicles, and the production in Japan of Honda-developed CIGS solar cells that require approximately half the energy to produce compared to traditional thin-film solar cells. Both the HES unit and a hydrogen refueling station using Honda's CIGS solar panels are in operation at Honda's U.S. R&D center in Los Angeles, California.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

Check my link, it's Mini. Honda is #7 (Although Acura is #3).

Yeah, but if you're comparing GM, which includes buick, chevy, cadillac, etc, then you must throw Mini under the BMW brand, etc.

Hence, Honda/Acura is #1. By far.