[olePigeon]

We're setting up a new multimedia lab at my workplace. 30 new computers to be used for video editing, Photoshop, etc. The teacher coordinating the building of the lab said he wanted Intel Macs, because Macs are what people use in the video industry. He wanted to get his students familiarized with Final Cut Pro.

However, 30 new Dells were already purchased for the lab before the meeting about what technologies to purchase.

The reason they got the Dells was because "they're cheaper." So I looked at the quote. $985 for a Dell with a Dual Athlon, integrated video (ugh!), 1GB of RAM, 80GB HDD, 17" screen, NO DVD writer (wth? It's a video editing class!)

So hop onto Apple.com, take a look at the 17" midrange iMac. $1099 for a Core 2 Duo, dedicated 128MB Radeon video card, 1GB of RAM, 160GB HDD (twice the size of the Dell), and CD/DVD SuperDrive (versus CD-RW/DVD-ROM).

[Oisín]

Can’t they cancel the order and buy the iMacs instead?

Surely, even administration staff should be able to understand that a $100 difference between their ‘cheaper’ Dells and the machines the teacher actually creating the lab wants is reasonable enough?

[Oneota]

Yeah, sounds to me like it's time to test how good Dell's return policy is.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

However, 30 new Dells were already purchased for the lab before the meeting about what technologies to purchase.

I'd love to hear the justification for this brilliance.

[sek929]

When I was doing video work 3 years ago at my school not a single computer didn't have a DVD writer.

They were all Macs, but still, what the hell is the point of a video class that can't burn anything to disc?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Can’t they cancel the order and buy the iMacs instead?

Surely, even administration staff should be able to understand that a $100 difference between their ‘cheaper’ Dells and the machines the teacher actually creating the lab wants is reasonable enough?

They aren't any cheaper. If you upgrade the HDD to 160GB (80GB is pretty damn small for video editing computers that'll have multiple projects on them), and upgrade to the CD/DVD burner, and upgrade the video to a dedicated video card, there goes the $100 difference.

On top of that, with the iMac, he'll actually be able to teach his class using Final Cut.

[Oisín]

They aren't any cheaper. If you upgrade the HDD to 160GB (80GB is pretty damn small for video editing computers that'll have multiple projects on them), and upgrade to the CD/DVD burner, and upgrade the video to a dedicated video card, there goes the $100 difference.

Hence the inverted commas.

[olePigeon]

Just had a mini-meeting with my boss over IM. About all they're going to concede is to upgrade the CD-ROMs to DVD-RWs. Sigh.

I guess I shouldn't complain too much, at least we're getting new computers.

[sek929]

So basically they'll end up paying more for the Dells than they would have for the Mac you compared them to?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by sek929 

So basically they'll end up paying more for the Dells than they would have for the Mac you compared them to?

Yep. And the video teacher will have to stick with spawn of the Devil, Pinnacle Studio.

[sek929]

No Final Cut Pro AND more expensive than a Mac.

Talk about a lose-lose.

[Oisín]

Next course of action: arrange a petition, signed by teachers and students alike?

[Dakarʒ]

So who did the order? IT?

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

So who did the order? IT?

Probably, they like to keep their jobs.

[Rumor]

What about trying to argue the fact that Final Cut Pro is the industry leader* and by only being able to teach Pinnacle Studio (instead of being able to teach both), the students are only being prepared for a sub-par job?

*I don't know if it is the industry leader, it just sounds like a good arguing point.

[besson3c]

What about the costs of IT support? Does your IT staff support the Mac?

Perhaps this is the bottleneck?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

What about trying to argue the fact that Final Cut Pro is the industry leader* and by only being able to teach Pinnacle Studio (instead of being able to teach both), the students are only being prepared for a sub-par job?

*I don't know if it is the industry leader, it just sounds like a good arguing point.

That might be a good argument if the administration was interested in making the high schools setup to offer vocational training.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Probably, they like to keep their jobs.

Well I wanna hear it from olePigeon before I speculate further.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That might be a good argument if the administration was interested in making the high schools setup to offer vocational training.

Is that it? Surely you'd like to offer up your opinion on why *nix's command line-based video editing program is far superior.

[goMac]

With Boot Camp, we no longer order Dell's here at work (unless we need a cheap rack mount Windows server).

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Is that it? Surely you'd like to offer up your opinion on why *nix's command line-based video editing program is far superior.

Wow, you sure can be pissy at times!

My hunch is it comes down to support costs and other related costs, and that the administration feels that offering kids some exposure to video in this way is better than either offering nothing, or shelling out the bucks for training IT staff and/or Apple service contracts.

Personally, I believe in investing into education as much as possible. If Pinnacle can be used effectively as an educational tool, perfect. I don't believe in setting up high schools simply to be vocational schools. Part of the problem with higher education is the culture of intensely job focused students that are not interested in learning, but simply in getting a job that pays well and offers them desirable perks.

[Y3a]

let them teach Wordperfect, MacDraw Pro and Lotus 1-2-3 while you're at it. Obviously they are management because they were unqualified for any technical positions, and not up to date on ANY technology. Again, PC types are NOT computer types, and the decisions reflect the general lack of understanding up-to-date applications and the workplace. Where is this? I wouldn't want to GO there, unless I want to learn Steam Locomotive Technology too! LOL

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Y3a 

let them teach Wordperfect, MacDraw Pro and Lotus 1-2-3 while you're at it. Obviously they are management because they were unqualified for any technical positions, and not up to date on ANY technology. Again, PC types are NOT computer types, and the decisions reflect the general lack of understanding up-to-date applications and the workplace. Where is this? I wouldn't want to GO there, unless I want to learn Steam Locomotive Technology too! LOL

The job of a high school is to provide an education, to produce an informed electorate, to get people into University/College (most of which are Liberal Arts based, to my knowledge), and most of all, to instill critical thinking skills into students. The tools they use to get there are not terribly relevant, as long as they can get there.

It can be argued that it would be difficult to realize these goals with tools that are crippling, and that is a valid point, which is why I qualify what I say carefully by saying that these tools are fair game, IMHO, as long as they can be used in an educationally effective manner.

[CMYKid]

I've actually reallllly gotten into the latest Premier Pro, and not just because if the really upgraded integration with the other CS titles. So that wouldnt be a terrible option but good luck getting it to run on those barebones Dells.

[mduell]

That Dell price seems too high for a desktop... did they buy laptops?

[besson3c]

How do bulk service contracts with Apple anyway, or do they not exist? Would the school have to simply buy a bunch of Applecare packages, or would they get some higher level of support?

[Oisín]

Not sure how it works in the US, but over here, educational institutions get bulk discounts and can buy bulk AppleCare as well.

[olePigeon]

Our district is 95/5 PC to Mac ratio. All the Macs are in the photo, music, dance, and journalism classes.

The video editing class at the other two campuses are running PCs with AVID. However, they only have 6 machines and those AVID machines are expensive as hell. I think they were confused as to what a video editing machine is, assuming an iMac isn't capable of doing video editing like a $6,000 AVID system (which may be true, but Final Cut Pro is pretty damn good.)

I was hired on to support the Macs for the entire district, but my main function is to deal with the PCs. I gave my opinion, and I mentioned everything there is to say about the Apples, Final Cut, etc. That was the whole point of the meeting between the video teacher and IT (which I'm apart of, but was unaware of the purchase.)

The reason they went with Dell was because they got a free digital projector and "multimedia cart." It's a wheeled cart with audio and video jacks with a lock cabinate. Considering it's a Dell branded projector and cart, it'll break within a year. Dell also gave them free 3-year warranty on the computers. That means after consistently breaking over three years, we'll be SOL in January when they break again.

They bought the lab using our Microsoft voucher money, so we can't return the computers.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by mduell 

That Dell price seems too high for a desktop... did they buy laptops?

Dell Optiplex 740
Athlon "5000+"
1 GB RAM
NVidia Quadro Integrated Video
80GB SATA Drive
$985

It's normally around $1,075 but since we bought 30 of them I guess they dropped the price.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Not sure how it works in the US, but over here, educational institutions get bulk discounts and can buy bulk AppleCare as well.

Yep, and they'll often throw in other freebies on top of the price like free RAM upgrades, swivel bases, etc.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Our district is 95/5 PC to Mac ratio. All the Macs are in the photo, music, dance, and journalism classes.

The video editing class at the other two campuses are running PCs with AVID. However, they only have 6 machines and those AVID machines are expensive as hell. I think they were confused as to what a video editing machine is, assuming an iMac isn't capable of doing video editing like a $6,000 AVID system (which may be true, but Final Cut Pro is pretty damn good.)

I was hired on to support the Macs for the entire district, but my main function is to deal with the PCs. I gave my opinion, and I mentioned everything there is to say about the Apples, Final Cut, etc. That was the whole point of the meeting between the video teacher and IT (which I'm apart of, but was unaware of the purchase.)

The reason they went with Dell was because they got a free digital projector and "multimedia cart." It's a wheeled cart with audio and video jacks with a lock cabinate. Considering it's a Dell branded projector and cart, it'll break within a year. Dell also gave them free 3-year warranty on the computers. That means after consistently breaking over three years, we'll be SOL in January when they break again.

They bought the lab using our Microsoft voucher money, so we can't return the computers.

3 year hardware warranty? I guess that means you'd have to factor in Applecare/bulk Applecare into the Mac costs.

How did the MS voucher come about?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

3 year hardware warranty? I guess that means you'd have to factor in Applecare/bulk Applecare into the Mac costs.

Bulk Apple-Care for 30 machines (assuming we weren't given it for free, which sometimes happens) would add on about $75 a computer. Depending on who you go through, you can might get the AppleCare for free. CDW has routinely given us significant discounts on the AppleCare at the college I used to work at, plus free RAM and free tilt-and-swivel stands for the eMacs/iMacs.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How did the MS voucher come about?

Class Action lawsuit against Microsoft here in California and several other states. Microsoft was/is price gouging with Windows & Office. It was figured between $30 and $50 for each copy of Win98, 2000, XP, Office 95, 97, XP, and 2003. So between 1995 and 2005 after all the computers we've purchased with Windows and Office, we got a pretty big refund for the school.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Dell Optiplex 740
Athlon "5000+"
1 GB RAM
NVidia Quadro Integrated Video
80GB SATA Drive
$985

It's normally around $1,075 but since we bought 30 of them I guess they dropped the price.

There's still something wrong with that pricing. The config you've listed:
Dell OptiPlex 740
AMD ATHLON™ 64 X2 5000+ (2.60GHz, 512KBx2)
Genuine Windows® XP Home Edition,SP2, x32, with Media, English
1GB DDR2 Non-ECC SDRAM,667MHz, (2 DIMM)
80GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with Data Burst Cache™
48X32 CDRW/DVD Combo with Cyberlink Power DVD™
Integrated NIVIDA Quadro NVS 210S Graphics
3 Year Limited Warranty plus 3 Year NBD On-Site Service
$628

What you can really get for $1075:
Dell OptiPlex 740
AMD ATHLON™ 64 X2 5000+ (2.60GHz, 512KBx2)
Genuine Windows® XP Home Edition,SP2, x32, with Media, English
2GB DDR2 Non-ECC SDRAM,667MHz, (2 DIMM)
250GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with Data Burst Cache™
16X DVD+/-RW SATA, Roxio Creator Dell Edition
128MB ATI Radeon X1300 (1 DVI/1 TV-out), low profile
Dell 20 inch E207FP Widescreen Flat Panel
3 Year Limited Warranty plus 3 Year NBD On-Site Service
$1069

Note the upgrades in bold. This is just the everyday, buy-1-machine pricing with no discounts/rebates.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Yep, and they'll often throw in other freebies on top of the price like free RAM upgrades, swivel bases, etc.

Apple frequently includes freebies for us, and will undercut Dell even if Dell's specs are lower. We also get face time with Apple care reps and people taking feedback on products.

All in all, a lot better experience than Dell. The only good thing about Dell is they will sent out techs the next day to work on our Dell servers. It's a little more difficult to get Apple working with us on our OS X SAN.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by mduell 

There's still something wrong with that pricing. The config you've listed:
Dell OptiPlex 740
AMD ATHLON™ 64 X2 5000+ (2.60GHz, 512KBx2)
Genuine Windows® XP Home Edition,SP2, x32, with Media, English
1GB DDR2 Non-ECC SDRAM,667MHz, (2 DIMM)
80GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with Data Burst Cache™
48X32 CDRW/DVD Combo with Cyberlink Power DVD™
Integrated NIVIDA Quadro NVS 210S Graphics
3 Year Limited Warranty plus 3 Year NBD On-Site Service
$628

That's what came up on the education site when I went there.