[RAILhead]

This may be too ambiguous in general, especially because I don't know the model number of the board I'm talking about (yet). Anyway, here's the deal...

We have a decent size board at our church (24 channel, I think), but it only has 4 auxiliary pre faders. This limitation -- according to the sounds guys -- means we can only have 4 individual monitor mixes. This is no good -- we need *at least* 5 (drums, 2 guitars, bass, vocals).

What do you do to setup a separate mixer for monitors, only? Back in our college bands, we did some serious jury-rigging to get more monitors -- but I'm interested in getting a "legit" solution.

[Tenacious Dyl]

In the shows that I have tech'd where we need a lot of monitors we have a seperate board just for monitors and there is a "monitor guy" hired to just manage them. He patches in to what he needs to from the main board.

You could get a smaller / cheaper board and use that as your monitor control? I don't know if I would buy a bigger main board with 8 aux's for example, just to add 1 more monitor on stage...

[RAILhead]

Yeah, we want a monitor board -- but I don't know how you'd go about setting one up. How do you send your channels to the monitor board so that you can mix and send? I guess my confusion is that if we're limited to 4 outs now, a monitor board will be just as limited. Do you gain more monitor control by using what you can from the main as well as the monitor board?

Ugh. Why aren't there any web sites explaining this hookup stuff?

[onlyone-jc]

You will need to send each incoming signal coming out to the monitor desk. You can do this either after the main desk, or before the main desk. You can either use a 24-way TRS to male XLR loom and send everything out of the main desk's direct outputs (I'm presuming it has these for each channel), or you can use an active split and split the signal at the source (i.e. at the stage-box). The latter (an active split) is the cleaner (and more expensive) option, since any gain adjustments at the main desk using the direct outputs option, will result in level fluctuations at the monitor desk. You'll just end up giving your monitoring engineer a harder time.

I'd suggest that you just save yourself the hassle (and money), and buy one decent desk with switchable pre/post-fade auxiliaries, and use it as both your main and monitor desk. Then just sell the desk you currently have and recoup some of the money.

As a side note, does your current desk have a matrix? If so, you could set up a few basic monitor mixes, and feed them out through that. They'll be post-fade, and so not ideal, but they should get you by, providing your musicians aren't fussy.

Good luck,
onlyone-jc.

[RAILhead]

Still confused. As an example (since I won't know what our board's specs are until tonight), let's look at this Peavey:

Sanctuary Series . S-32
Here's the user manual: http://www.sanctuary-series.com/down...s32_manual.pdf

It says it has 4 monitor sends (like our current one). I also see it has line outs for each channel. Now, let's say I want 6 individual monitor mixes, so I have another board that'll be used as my monitor board. Here's my limited understanding:

We snake from the main board's outputs, and bring them to the line or mic inputs of the monitor board. So, now I've brought (for example), 3 mics, all the drums (mixed down to output on one channel), and 3 guitars to the monitor board. I want to split this into 5 different monitor mixes (vocals, drums, bass, guitar 1, guitar 2). If my monitor board only has 4 monitor outs like I see most every board does, I still can't do what I want for the same limitation I have with the main board.

Do you go from the monitor board's line outs into an amp or something, then snake the individual line outs to the individual monitors?

[RAILhead]

Help me out, onlyone-jc!!

[onlyone-jc]

You need a specialised desk for advanced monitoring purposes. You can only give as many monitor mixes as per the amount of sends you have available. Your sends preferably have to be pre-fade, in order to make them independent of the FOH mix. So, if you have four pre-fade auxiliaries, then you can only give four independent monitor mixes.

Take a look at this desk: Soundcraft Spirit Monitor 2

This has twelve pre/post-fade switchable auxiliary sends (eight of which are mono, and the remaining four are set up in to two stereo-pairs). This would most likely meet your FOH requirements as well.

Remember, you'll need an amplifier channel per monitor send (i.e. a two-channel amplifier per two monitor sends). Or, alternatively a powered monitor (which has the amplifier built-in) per send.

Good luck,
onlyone-jc.

[RAILhead]

I see what you're saying, and I see where you said it in your original reply. Basically, buy a new board with the built-in sends...

[onlyone-jc]

You could run it off two desks, if you really wanted to; if what you want is to simply bodge another desk on the end of your current one. You could use your current desk now to send four monitor mixes, then send the direct outputs of each channel in to each channel of another mixer, and then use the other mixer's auxiliaries to send out another four (presuming it has four pre-fade auxiliary sends, as does your main desk now). That would give you a total of eight mono pre-fade auxiliary sends across two desks.

But, I just think it's a lot of hassle, to have the FOH engineer operating one half the monitors, and then a monitoring engineer operating the other half. Either have two separate desks (i.e. one for FOH, and a dedicated desk for monitoring with adequate pre-fade auxiliary sends - for example, the Soundcraft Spirit Monitor 2) and have two engineers; one at each desk. Or, have a single engineer at a single desk doing the whole job. It's your, and your team's, decision.

Good luck,
onlyone-jc.

[RAILhead]

Thanks for the awesome info and help!

[RAILhead]

A quick confirmation: I can get a 10 channel powered mixer (Peavey.com XR 8300) that has monitor out on each channel. To me, this means I can hook up 10 different monitors and have 10 different mixes, right?

If so, then we could take our main board, pipe some of the channels to this, and then fire them to the new set of monitors -- all for around $500.

Am I understanding that correctly regarding the Peavey mixer?

[onlyone-jc]

No. This means that there are ten inputs. You can feed ten signals in, and get one monitor mix out, since it only has a single auxiliary send (technically two, but the other is a dedicated send to the on-board effects).

Good luck,
onlyone-jc.

[RAILhead]

Hmm, the description says "3-band EQ, monitor send and effects send on each channel" -- so I assumed that meant a monitor send per channel. So what that really means is that you can set line levels on each channel for the main monitor out?

If so, then what I need to look for are the max number of aux outs I can find, right?

[onlyone-jc]

Yes, that's correct. Your only option is to look for a desk geared specifically towards monitoring. The Soundcraft Spirit Monitor 2 is a prime example of that, and will equally cover your FOH needs as well. But those additional auxiliary sends often don't come cheap.

Your cheapest dedicated option would probably be this: Allen & Heath Mix Wizard 12M

With this, you can send a total of twelve mono monitor sends. Remember, you'll need an amplifier channel or powered monitor per send. So, you'll need twelve amplifier channels (i.e. six two-channel amplifiers) with twelve passive monitor speakers, or twelve powered monitor speakers in order to fully utilise the desk.

So, if your current requirement is six monitor mixes, you'll need three two-channel amplifiers (i.e six mono channels), and six passive monitor speakers. Alternatively, you could use six powered monitor speakers (of which have their own amplifier built-in).

The only obvious limitation of this desk, is that it's only got sixteen mic/line inputs, and you've obviously got a total of twenty-four coming from your main desk.

Good luck,
onlyone-jc.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

We have a decent size board at our church (24 channel, I think), but it only has 4 auxiliary pre faders. This limitation -- according to the sounds guys -- means we can only have 4 individual monitor mixes. This is no good -- we need *at least* 5 (drums, 2 guitars, bass, vocals).

I have to ask: do you really need 5 MIXES?

Meaning, do you really need each individual musician to hear a completely different mix of instrument levels?

I don't mean to get smart-alecky, but I can't help thinking that maybe you're thinking beyond your needs.

See, I play in an 8-piece band, and most club stages we play have *maybe* two separate monitor mixes, three, if we're lucky. (Okay, we had five Friday night, but that was a 1000+ hall, and we only had two on Saturday... )

Monitoring is purely so that the musicians can hear each other on stage.

Figure that the band will hear guitars and bass through the amps on stage, as well as drums through live ambience.

So really, the only thing you absolutely NEED to have monitoring for is vocals and any instruments that don't run through amps (some keyboards, for example).

It's nice for the drummer to get an extra monitor mix with extra bass, but much can be taken care of through careful placement of the amplifiers.

Apologies if you're aware of all this, but depending upon how large the stage is and how experienced your musicians are, you might well get away with 5 monitors running daisy-chained off a single monitor mix with compromises (the bass or vocals might be a little too loud for one or the other band members, or slightly too soft elsewhere), rather than investing a lot of work and money into rigging up five separate monitor mixes.

Just a thought.

[onlyone-jc]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Apologies if you're aware of all this, but depending upon how large the stage is and how experienced your musicians are, you might well get away with 5 monitors running daisy-chained off a single monitor mix with compromises (the bass or vocals might be a little too loud for one or the other band members, or slightly too soft elsewhere), rather than investing a lot of work and money into rigging up five separate monitor mixes.

Analogika has a good point. If your monitors are good enough, they will have a link connection next to their input. You can feed each monitor's input signal back out via this link in to an additional monitor.

However, you should be very aware of impedance when doing this. If you have, for example, eight monitors that operate at 8 Ohms each, you could link two monitors together, to give you a total of four pairs. However, this would then put each pair down to a load of 4 Ohms. You need to ensure that your amplifiers can run this low. Most professional amplifiers will do this nicely, and may even given you down to 2 Ohms, but I'm not sure what you're using. If you over-load an amplifier, expect and a lot of heat, maybe a bang, and maybe a fire. So, be careful. Always check your equipment's specifications.

You said that you already have four pre-fade auxiliary sends, and so, you could send four independent monitor mixes, across eight monitors. This means that for every two musicians, there will be one monitor mix.

Good luck,
onlyone-jc.

[analogika]

You are correct regarding impedance, of course. I was assuming powered monitors. In that case, there is no problem with daisy-chaining.

Originally Posted by onlyone-jc 

You said that you already have four pre-fade auxiliary sends, and so, you could send four independent monitor mixes, across eight monitors. This means that for every two musicians, there will be one monitor mix.

That should be more than enough.

[RAILhead]

Yes, we need 5 -- and I'm one the guitarists. I like to use a lot of the ambient sound, so all I want is my guitar and a bit of vocals. Guitar 2 wants just him. Bass wants me, vocals, and drums. Singers want me, vocals, and some drums. Drums want a bit of everything.

The kicker is that we want them at different levels, so we have a hard time finding a sweet spot for sharing. And yes, it's because of us musicians being picky.

The board we're using now is a Soundcraft Spirit 8. It have 6 aux sends. 4 of them are going to our current monitors, 1 is going to effects, and it seems #6 is just for a talkback mic (from the desk tech direct to the monitors, so it's not totally necessary). So, if we can take aux 6, we'll get our 5th monitor -- but that's something we didn't get a chance to goof with last night.

[onlyone-jc]

While that is possible, it would mean that that particular monitor would get a post-fade feed. This means that if any changes are made to the FOH mix, it will also change in that particular monitor. But, I suppose it comes down to how picky whoever gets that monitor is.

If the drummer is the only person wanting a bit of everything, then the FOH mix may not be a bad thing for them to have in their monitor. So, maybe give the post-fade send to them and set everything to unity. Then, adjust as per the drummers desires.

Good luck,
onlyone-jc.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Yes, we need 5 -- and I'm one the guitarists. I like to use a lot of the ambient sound, so all I want is my guitar and a bit of vocals. Guitar 2 wants just him. Bass wants me, vocals, and drums. Singers want me, vocals, and some drums. Drums want a bit of everything.

The kicker is that we want them at different levels, so we have a hard time finding a sweet spot for sharing. And yes, it's because of us musicians being picky.

The board we're using now is a Soundcraft Spirit 8. It have 6 aux sends. 4 of them are going to our current monitors, 1 is going to effects, and it seems #6 is just for a talkback mic (from the desk tech direct to the monitors, so it's not totally necessary). So, if we can take aux 6, we'll get our 5th monitor -- but that's something we didn't get a chance to goof with last night.

The talkback mic may be routed directly to aux 1-4 on the Spirit 8's master section, so the Aux 6 is definitely not necessary for talkback.

I would probably hook up Aux 6 to the FX and use 1-5 for monitoring.
You'll have to switch Aux 5 to pre-fader send though. The Spirit 8 has Aux 1-2 hardwired for pre-fader, 3-4 switchable to pre-fader from the front panel, and 5-6 post-only.

You might want to look into using the Channel Direct Outs, and running those into free channels on the console if you have any, and then sending those out via Aux 5 or routing those to one of the eight busses and grabbing that for the monitor. The Users' Guide is available on the site you linked to.

Of course, if the other guitar player wants just himself, then having just that one channel post-fader isn't too much of an annoyance to adjust, so you might want to just stick him on Aux 5.

Mind, all of this could be avoided if you weren't all such ****ing divas...

[onlyone-jc]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Mind, all of this could be avoided if you weren't all such ****ing divas...

[RAILhead]

True, that.

Part of the issue is just the way they have the whole stage and stuff setup -- it's a crappy location, the ambient sound is too high, yaddah yaddah yaddah.

[analogika]

Seriously, though, I can't imagine a five-piece band (with two of them guitars, even!) not being able to get by on FOUR monitor channels.

[RAILhead]

Stage noise. Our lead thinks he has to be blaring through his monitor, and I have no desire to have to audibly compete with him. So, I don't want him in my mix (I use his ambient sound). If we were on the same mix, we'd be fighting for volume. Both of us don't like much vocal, but I like some -- and he likes none. The drums are set up wireless, so he's got a bit of everything since he's in a cage. Vocalists like themselves and me, with a little drum. Bass likes more drum than anyone.

And so it goes...

The main issue us that most of the people aren't experienced musicians, so I'm still trying to get them to understand that it's okay to bootleg off stage sound, and that you don't have to hear yourself full volume.


Back to hardware, I found a little $130 Peavey PV-8 with 1 pre and 1 post fade that would be a totally cheap and quick fix for adding just 1 more monitor: Peavey PV-8

[CMYKid]

I would reallllly stay away from crap like that. Aside from just basic quality issues I dont think that unit or a similar one will help you much at all with your basic problem(s). There really ARE some very reasonably priced monitor desks out there and with that and a decent split snake you are gonna have far more room for expansion.

Having spent quitea few years on the road mixing both monitors and FOH I'm half in agreement with everybody questioning the need for THAT many mixes, however the other half of me is with you. I've spent a lot of time mixing FOH in churches and stage setup for worship is a fairly different animal. So where I'd probably tell a "normal" band to just suck it and deal with it I think you're right to want to accommodate.

One other thing that you might look into is convincing the louder people to wear moulds. We have a 52 channel desk thats not quite full but getting there so mixing that out to 4 or 5 mixes ends up with a lot of stuff flying around onstage. Having a couple of the people that like to hear way too much of themselves use in-ears dramatically reduces the overall stage wash, which allows the remaining conventional monitors to need less volume while still allowing those people to hear themselves.

I'm just guessing but from some of the above questions it sounds liek you might benefit from a venerable old book that Yamaha has called the Yamaha Guide to Mixing in Houses of Worship (or something almost like that). You certainly cant learn to mix from a book, and there are plenty of people who bash that particular one, however it really can't be beaten for a basic, lowest common denominator starting point/explanation of the nuts and bolts of putting a system together properly. Lots of diagrams, signal flows, pictures. The general rule of thumb among sound pros is "anything you can buy at a music store is crap" however you SHOULD be able to find that book at just about any one.