[besson3c]

I can't think of any movies I liked as a kid growing up that featured cool girl stars... The only girl movies I can think of were Rainbow Bright, My Little Pony, and other pretty weak crap that made for good merchandise and perhaps after school cartoons, but not so much movies...

Here are some of my favorite movies from my childhood, just thinking off the top of my head:

- The Neverending Story
- Wargames
- Tron
- Indiana Jones
- Star Wars
- Princess Bride
- ET
- Superman
- King Solomon's Mines
- Goonies
- the Navigator
- Explorers (?)
- Ghostbusters
- Gremlins

As far as my wife remembers, both girls and guys were very much into all of these movies, yet none of them starred a girl. What was left for girls? We've both come up short thinking of cool movies designed for girls where there was a girl taking on an assertive role doing cool stuff, rather than just worrying about her prom date, her latest zit, and the usual Saved by the Bell type crap, or just being whiny and annoying.

Are we ready to accept movies like this that star women? Are we ready to start inspiring young girls to grow to become strong, independent women that worry about non superficial things?

Have things changed? I still see a lot of adult movies where they pair Harrison Ford or Sean Connery up with some babe 30 years younger. There are still a whole lot of male dominated movies, but a few such as Tomb Raider that are starting to feature a strong female character. We also really like the president of the colonies in Battlestar Galactica, and there is an increasing number of comedies that feature a total buffoon husband and a wife that runs things (e.g. the Simpsons). I see a little change there.

I'm no longer in touch with movies that are being put out for kids, other than Pixar movies. Have things changed there? For those of you that are parents of girls, how do you handle this?

[Oisín]

Thread does not deliver. I see no male-dominated adult movies.

[design219]

Wizard of Oz.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by design219 

Wizard of Oz.

Yes, that is a good example... Not really an 80s movie, but still a good example.

[Chuckit]

Them's the archetypes, kid.

Also, it's pretty well-known that most women have no problem watching movies with mostly male casts, but the inverse is not true. Even in those movies, many do feature strong female roles — they just aren't the main character.

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Thread does not deliver. I see no male-dominated adult movies.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Them's the archetypes, kid.

Also, it's pretty well-known that most women have no problem watching movies with mostly male casts, but the inverse is not true. Even in those movies, many do feature strong female roles — they just aren't the main character.

How come we have so much trouble with the reverse? Or do you think this is no longer the case?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How come we have so much trouble with the reverse? Or do you think this is no longer the case?

The same reason women can wear pants but men can't wear skirts. In our culture, it is considered more or less OK for a woman to act tough and stereotypically masculine (to a certain degree, at least), but men are not allowed to be feminine.

[itistoday]

When I was growing up there were plenty. Beauty and the Beast from Disney is a great example, Cinderella, The Little Mermaid, Matilda, the fairy in Fern Gully... sure there might not have been as many but there was a noticeable amount I think.

[Doofy]

It's like Kara Zor-El never existed.

[Dakarʒ]

How about Labyrinth?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by itistoday 

When I was growing up there were plenty. Beauty and the Beast from Disney is a great example, Cinderella, The Little Mermaid, Matilda, the fairy in Fern Gully... sure there might not have been as many but there was a noticeable amount I think.

Yeah, but that's my point... These girls are dainty, and mostly helpless...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

How about Labyrinth?

Yes, that's both a good example and a great movie to boot....

[sek929]

Sigourney Weaver totally kicks the queen alien's ass while in a forklift suit. As I see it, that's a very positive role model for young ladies.

[design219]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Yes, that is a good example... Not really an 80s movie, but still a good example.

You didn't specify 80s. I was a kid in the 60s and early 70s. We didn't have VCRs then and watching movies was limited to theaters or TV. The Wizard of Oz was played once a year on TV and that was a movie my whole family always watched together. I think that's what made it special for me.

Dorothy was the only one in the movie with a spine. She was brave, smart and could sing. What more could a little boy want? I actually think I enjoyed it a lot more than my sister.

I just watched it with my kids a few months back and was glad they really enjoyed it. Of course, having the DVD, it's not as special as once a year viewing.

[wallinbl]

Thelma and Louise
Erin Brockovich
Alien
Terminator

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Yeah, but that's my point... These girls are dainty, and mostly helpless...

That's partially true for Cinderella, not so much Ariel though. While some of them might be dainty I don't think any of the ones I mentioned could be called "helpless" (with the possible exception of Cinderella). Bell though? Was Bell "helpless" or "dainty"? How about courageous and nerdy! Same goes for Matilda and and the fairy from Fern Gully:



Ah! I just remembered Pippi Longstocking! There's another one. :-)

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

Terminator

Excellent example!! I remember watching that when I was 5 and loving it! Terminator 2 especially is my all-time favorite movie.

[itistoday]

Damn I love Sarah Connor...





"Helpless" and "dainty" my ass.

[Person Man]

Adventures in Babysitting.

[SirCastor]

Someone already mentioned it, it has to do with Feminine/Masculine roles and perception by society. There is a lot of really interesting things to be explored when you dive into Women's studies and feminist theory. Even those two concepts generally get the cold shoulder because of their associations with extreme feminist. (Kind of like Islam being bad because of extremists, except I don't think anyone has been killed over extreme feminism.)

Most films that put the lead character as a woman puts the woman in a masculine roll. A couple of examples already mentioned here are Alien and Terminator 2. Both situations do not express the feminine nature of the lead character, but the masculine nature instead. Notice that Princess Leia is only a princess when the situation demands, and more often than not, she's getting her hands dirty, shooting guns, diving into trash compactors and blowing up bunkers.

One of the interesting things to me about the whole deal is that Women empowerment movements rarely put women in feminine roles and empower them, instead they seek to put women in masculine roles because in our society a masculine role is a role of power. This kind of definition is heresy to extreme feminists though because it suggests that women want to be men rather than to be empowered. The misunderstanding comes in that Masculine != Man != Male, and Feminine != Woman != Female.

I am not an expert, and frankly little more than a semi-educated student regarding this, and I invite someone smarter than me to rip to shreds what I just said.

[Dakarʒ]

Well, I suppose if you could save the day by baking cookies, shopping for groceries, and doing the laundry, that'd be different.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by SirCastor 

Someone already mentioned it, it has to do with Feminine/Masculine roles and perception by society. There is a lot of really interesting things to be explored when you dive into Women's studies and feminist theory. Even those two concepts generally get the cold shoulder because of their associations with extreme feminist. (Kind of like Islam being bad because of extremists, except I don't think anyone has been killed over extreme feminism.)

Most films that put the lead character as a woman puts the woman in a masculine roll. A couple of examples already mentioned here are Alien and Terminator 2. Both situations do not express the feminine nature of the lead character, but the masculine nature instead. Notice that Princess Leia is only a princess when the situation demands, and more often than not, she's getting her hands dirty, shooting guns, diving into trash compactors and blowing up bunkers.

One of the interesting things to me about the whole deal is that Women empowerment movements rarely put women in feminine roles and empower them, instead they seek to put women in masculine roles because in our society a masculine role is a role of power. This kind of definition is heresy to extreme feminists though because it suggests that women want to be men rather than to be empowered. The misunderstanding comes in that Masculine != Man != Male, and Feminine != Woman != Female.

I am not an expert, and frankly little more than a semi-educated student regarding this, and I invite someone smarter than me to rip to shreds what I just said.

Very interesting. This is truly food for thought. Thank you!

[KeriVit]

80s not so dominant but still female lead... yet they always were the hero ya know.

Pretty in Pink
16 Candles
St. Elmo's Fire
Breakfast Club

Tear your heart out or kill ya...

Officer and a Gentleman
Coal Miner's Daughter
Mermaid
What's Love Got to Do with It.
Silkwood
Norma Rae
Misery
Terms of Endearment
Fried Green Tomatoes
Basic Instinct


Now, more domineering,

Alien
Terminator
Red Sonja

Today...
Devil Wears Prada!

where does Rocky Horror Picture Show Fit?

PS- were you and your wife stoned while having this conversation?

[besson3c]

Not familiar with most of those movies, unfortunately...

We weren't stoned, but we were watching the Neverending Story yesterday since I was feeling nostalgic and hadn't seen the movie for the last 10 years or so. She commented that this story, like so many others, were focussed all around this little boy.

You have to admit, there aren't too many stories like the Neverending Story that focus around an affable and capable female character...

We also got talking about how so many other movies fit this formula, but these kids movies in particular made an impression on her, because she was never interested in Barbie and all of that girlie girl stuff.

[Chuckit]

Oh, there's pretty much every movie Miyazaki has ever made.

[JonoMarshall]

Oh, there's pretty much every movie Miyazaki has ever made.

Awesome films! Princess Mononoke especially.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Oh, there's pretty much every movie Miyazaki has ever made.

Excellent example! My favorite ones are "Princess Mononoke", "Spirited Away", and "Kiki's Delivery Service", too bad I never saw those when I was a child.

[design219]

Originally Posted by itistoday 

Excellent example! My favorite ones are "Princess Mononoke", "Spirited Away", and "Kiki's Delivery Service", too bad I never saw those when I was a child.

All great flicks. I think I liked "Nassica and the Valley of the Wind" and "Castle in the Sky" best.

He always has little girls as the main character.

[itistoday]

What about TV shows? I know that's off topic but didn't those play an equivalent role as well? Characters like Lisa Simpson come to mind, and who can forget the ever competent Seven of Nine Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero One?? And their captain was a woman too! (Sorry, I've been watching Voyager every day these past several weeks...)

[Kevin]

[ghporter]

I'd like to also point out that a lot of the movies that have been mentioned as being "male dominated" are period pieces or allegories. An adventurous male archaeologist in the mid-1930s is believable. A believable adventurous female archaeologist in the 1990s would also be believable (although Lara wasn't believable at all). When making an allegory about good and evil based on existing ideas, do you create characters that follow your inspiration, or change them to females just because? (Yes, George planned his hero to be a heroine, at least at some point in the creative process, but the story led him back to the "farm boy" mold.)

Cultural relativism only works one way: you have to accept that a certain culture works in its own way and people in that culture make decisions based on their culture. You can't expect a culture from 40 years ago to be "enlightened" like our current culture, and you cannot judge that culture's decisions (movie characters, business decisions, etc.) based on today's mores. You (the you you are today) weren't there then to "educate" the people making those decisions, any more than you were there when FDR agreed to letting Stalin do his thing at Yalta... So judging what was in the movies when we were younger is just a waste of time. EXAMINING what was in the movies and using that to inform MODERN decisions about NEW movies is a different thing. But complaining about old films' lack of strong female characters prior to about 1985 is not a good use of time.

[Dakarʒ]

La Femme Nikita
Working Girl
Broadcast News
Tomb Raider

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Yes, George planned his hero to be a heroine, at least at some point in the creative process, but the story led him back to the "farm boy" mold.

Yep. If you look at early concept sketches for Star Wars, Luke has boobies.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I'd like to also point out that a lot of the movies that have been mentioned as being "male dominated" are period pieces or allegories. An adventurous male archaeologist in the mid-1930s is believable. A believable adventurous female archaeologist in the 1990s would also be believable (although Lara wasn't believable at all). When making an allegory about good and evil based on existing ideas, do you create characters that follow your inspiration, or change them to females just because? (Yes, George planned his hero to be a heroine, at least at some point in the creative process, but the story led him back to the "farm boy" mold.)

Cultural relativism only works one way: you have to accept that a certain culture works in its own way and people in that culture make decisions based on their culture. You can't expect a culture from 40 years ago to be "enlightened" like our current culture, and you cannot judge that culture's decisions (movie characters, business decisions, etc.) based on today's mores. You (the you you are today) weren't there then to "educate" the people making those decisions, any more than you were there when FDR agreed to letting Stalin do his thing at Yalta... So judging what was in the movies when we were younger is just a waste of time. EXAMINING what was in the movies and using that to inform MODERN decisions about NEW movies is a different thing. But complaining about old films' lack of strong female characters prior to about 1985 is not a good use of time.

This is all sound reasoning, but most of the movies I have listed are not really set in a specific, obvious era... Check out my original list.

[Judge_Fire]

These should be more enlightened times, indeed. Personally, as much as I love Pixar movies, their leads have been annoyingly male dominated, up to a point where I find it disturbing.

But, yeah, I'm one of this kids who grew up with a crush on Ripley and Connor, too.

[besson3c]

Let us not forget that Conner was in a restricted movie, not a kids movie

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Yep. If you look at early concept sketches for Star Wars, Luke has boobies.

He's still a bit wet a lot of the time.

[peeb]

The Golden Compass (AKA Northern Lights) - great book - film coming out this year - looks like it could be good.

[design219]

Originally Posted by peeb 

The Golden Compass (AKA Northern Lights) ...film coming out this year - looks like it could be good.

I just looked at the preview and it does look cool (except for the talking bear part). I love the dirigible design.

Apple - Trailers - The Golden Compass

[peeb]

I'm a sucker for steampunk.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This is all sound reasoning, but most of the movies I have listed are not really set in a specific, obvious era... Check out my original list.

Indiana Jones isn't set in a specific era? King Solomon's Mines? Wargames?

- The Neverending Story -- Fantasy, no real time period
- Wargames -- 1980 +/- 2 years (big emphasis on anti-Soviet nuclear capabilities, but not quite "The Day After" (1983)
- Tron -- 1980 (no real personal computers yet, but on the horizon)
- Indiana Jones -- 1934-1938 (but not OUR 1934-1938)
- Star Wars -- Fantasy, based on tons of prior art
- Princess Bride -- Fantasy but set in a sort of pseudo Renaissance time
- ET -- Modern day for release (1982)
- Superman -- Modern day for release (1978) Note critic Rex Reed has a cameo-only relevant then
- King Solomon's Mines -- 1880s (H. Rider Hagard's classic adventure novel)
- Goonies -- Modern day (1985)
- the Navigator -- Specifically 1978 and 1986
- Explorers (?) -- Ambiguous modern day
- Ghostbusters -- VERY specifically 1984; more off hand references than you can shake a stick at
- Gremlins -- Fantasy-ish modern day (1984)

Specific time settings (or particularly NONspecific time settings) are important to setting and telling a story. The time MUST be specified, even if it's to dismiss it (Neverending Story).

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Indiana Jones isn't set in a specific era? King Solomon's Mines? Wargames?

- The Neverending Story -- Fantasy, no real time period
- Wargames -- 1980 +/- 2 years (big emphasis on anti-Soviet nuclear capabilities, but not quite "The Day After" (1983)
- Tron -- 1980 (no real personal computers yet, but on the horizon)
- Indiana Jones -- 1934-1938 (but not OUR 1934-1938)
- Star Wars -- Fantasy, based on tons of prior art
- Princess Bride -- Fantasy but set in a sort of pseudo Renaissance time
- ET -- Modern day for release (1982)
- Superman -- Modern day for release (1978) Note critic Rex Reed has a cameo-only relevant then
- King Solomon's Mines -- 1880s (H. Rider Hagard's classic adventure novel)
- Goonies -- Modern day (1985)
- the Navigator -- Specifically 1978 and 1986
- Explorers (?) -- Ambiguous modern day
- Ghostbusters -- VERY specifically 1984; more off hand references than you can shake a stick at
- Gremlins -- Fantasy-ish modern day (1984)

Specific time settings (or particularly NONspecific time settings) are important to setting and telling a story. The time MUST be specified, even if it's to dismiss it (Neverending Story).

If you want to make this thread about movies that were *made* in the 80s, I think my original observations still hold water, but taking what you've said into account I'd say that many of these movies may have been created in the 80s, but it this era wasn't important to the plot line... That's my point. IOW, for example, you could set ET in 2007 and it would still be cool.

[design219]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

you could set ET in 2007 and it would still be cool.

No, sorry. ET sucked.

Just my opinion, I don't know why so many people liked it. Flying bikes that kids peddled? Lame.

[Dakarʒ]

I hated ET.

[hayesk]

Originally Posted by JonoMarshall 

Awesome films! Princess Mononoke especially.

Ugh! Princess Mononoke was a disappointment. So preachy!

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

Ugh! Princess Mononoke was a disappointment. So preachy!

Did you find it?

[JonoMarshall]

Ugh! Princess Mononoke was a disappointment. So preachy!

Fair enough, to each their own... I loved it, was all dreamish at the time and had terrific dreams/nights for the next week or so.

[olePigeon]

[Dakarʒ]

Am I the only one who doesn't find Sigourney Weaver all that attractive?