[Dork.]

I decided that as part of my education about cars, I should start rotating my tires myself. I already have a jack and some jackstands, and I went and got myself a shiny new torque wrench. Am I missing anything?

[Doofy]

Beer.

[design219]

In the early days of radial tires, the advice was to only rotate front to back so the tires are still going the same direction. I don't know if that advice is still valid today.

Oh, and I second the beer.

[Spliffdaddy]

a fat spliff.

oh, and a hot redhead.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by design219 

In the early days of radial tires, the advice was to only rotate front to back so the tires are still going the same direction. I don't know if that advice is still valid today.

It'd be very valid if the tyres in question were directional. For example, Goodyear Wrangler F1s or certain Pirelli P-Zero models.

Pretty obvious which ones are and which ones aren't - the tread will probably look like

V
V
V

rather than

-
-
-

[BlueSky]

Rotating tires is all well and fine, but make sure you have a vehicle to attach them to first.

[Dork.]

The tires on my car are directional, so front-to-back is all I'm doing there. My wife's car is a Subaru with their all-wheel drive, and I've read mixed things about which tire rotation pattern to use, so I'm sticking with front-to-back there, too.

Beer is essential for the satisfactory completion of this task, I think. No Guinness, though, since that is properly enjoyed in a pub class, and I don't want to get the glass all grimy. I think this is a perfect task for a Labatt's. A working man's brew, eh? (They call me the Working Man, I guess that's what I am....)
And the redhead is essential too, although probably not while actually rotating the tires, lest I get too many complaints about how I'm not doing it right.

I'll skip the spliff, though, since I'm not too fond of the stuff.

[Doofy]

Oh, and stick some Rush on the stereo. But then, you already knew that.

[KeriVit]

How often are you supposed to rotate tires?

[alligator]

Your owner's manual will tell you when to rotate the tires, and which direction to rotate them. I started doing this myself a while back and then gave it up because (1) it was a pain; and (2) you get dirty. I just didn't have the patience for it after a while, but you may enjoy it.

Your owner's manual will also tell you where it's best to put the jack to jack up your car. Check the tire inflation when you do this and you should be all set. It's an easy task, enjoy.

[peeb]

IIRC correctly, you have to balance them once you've rotated them. Honestly - is this worth it?

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by peeb 

IIRC correctly, you have to balance them once you've rotated them. Honestly - is this worth it?

Why would you have to re-balance them? Once a tire's balanced, it ought to be good in any wheel position. Some places do an alignment check after rotating the tires, but I've been told that's not strictly necessary, as long as you inspect the tires each time you rotate them and get an alignment check if you notice uneven wear.

I have heard that since weight is distributed differently between your front and back tires, after rotating your tires you should check the tire pressure on each tire to make sure that it's still within spec.... (actually, alligator just said that!)

[OldManMac]

Car Talk

The direction of the tread has nothing to do with whether tires are directional or not; it's noted on the side of the tire. Also, unless you're experiencing a vibration or shimmy in the wheel at speed, there's no need to rebalance them.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

The direction of the tread has nothing to do with whether tires are directional or not

Don't talk rubbish - the design of the tread is why they're directional.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Don't talk rubbish - the design of the tread is why they're directional.

I'm not the one talking rubbish. In addition to the car talk link I posted; Saturday Mechanic May 2002: Tire Maintenance - Popular Mechanics

"Some tire treads are directional. They should rotate in only one direction and should not be rotated except by a professional who can demount them.

How can you tell if you have this type of tire? Look for a directional arrow on the sidewall."

Tires: white walls

Practically 100% of the all season tires are non-directional and symmetrical. That means it doesn't matter how you mount them, they will look and act the same. In fact it is pretty common for all season tires to be made with white walls in the higher aspect ratios with the idea that if a black wall is to be showing, the white would be turned to the inside - just like yours.

The way to tell if you have something other than a non-directional or symmetrical tire is to look on the sidewall for an arrow or lettering the says "This Side Out".

If you have an arrow, you have directional tires, and the arrow has to point in the direction of rotation. These types of tires are directional for wet and snow traction enhancements. Mounting them incorrectly will only affects those 2 properties.

If you have "This Side Out", you have asymmetrical tires and they have to be mounted with the proper side out. These types of tires feature enhanced traction, wear, and handling. Mounting these incorrectly affects only those 3 properties.

It possible to have both directional and assymmetrical, but this is rare.

The other way to tell if you have non-directional, symmetrical tires is to look at them. If they look the same side to side, and it doesn't matter whether you look at them from the front or the rear - the angles will always be the same direction, then you have non-directional symmetrical tires.

[Dork.]

No, the design of the tread is why they're directional, Doofy's right. (And the article you quoted said as much). They just also have a handy mark on the sidewall, so idiots like me can be reminded to treat them appropriately.

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by KeriVit 

How often are you supposed to rotate tires?

Depends, but every 5000 to 10000 miles is good.

Originally Posted by peeb 

IIRC correctly, you have to balance them once you've rotated them. Honestly - is this worth it?

You do not HAVE to have them balanced when you rotate them, but periodic balancing is not a bad idea. Occasionally, tires lose a chunk of tread (albeit, small) or they throw a balance weight. While sometimes you can tell when this happens, you can catch it by occasional balancing.

Ultimately, it is a balance of your time and money when considering how often you should roatet and balance your tires.

pun intended

[Eug]

My tires rotate whenever my car is moving.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

No, the design of the tread is why they're directional, Doofy's right. (And the article you quoted said as much). They just also have a handy mark on the sidewall, so idiots like me can be reminded to treat them appropriately.

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see where the articles I linked to say anything about tread pattern determining tire rotation direction. If they are all-season tires, they are not uni-directional. Interestingly, you come here asking for advice on tire rotation, admitting you know little about cars, so someone links to three articles on it, and then all of a sudden you are a tire expert. Show me where I'm wrong, and I'll eat my words.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see where the articles I linked to say anything about tread pattern determining tire rotation direction.

The other way to tell if you have non-directional, symmetrical tires is to look at them. If they look the same side to side, and it doesn't matter whether you look at them from the front or the rear - the angles will always be the same direction, then you have non-directional symmetrical tires.

Like I said, if you look at a directional tyre from the front, you'll see:

V
V
V

If you look at it from the rear, you'll see:

^
^
^

If it's non-directional, you'll see:

-
-
-

Or

~
~
~

No need to look at the sidewall.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see where the articles I linked to say anything about tread pattern determining tire rotation direction. If they are all-season tires, they are not uni-directional. Interestingly, you come here asking for advice on tire rotation, admitting you know little about cars, so someone links to three articles on it, and then all of a sudden you are a tire expert. Show me where I'm wrong, and I'll eat my words.

Well, I never said I knew little about tires, just that I've never rotated my own tires before. The last time I was looking for tires, a friend of mine with the same make and model car recommended a directional tire, so I did a bit of research on them then. And your quote said it in the first line:

Some tire treads are directional.

My understanding is that whether or not a tire is directional is all about the tread and how it channels water. The sidewall marking is just there for convenience's sake (and because all treads are different, so it may not be obvious at first glance what type of tire it is just from looking at the tread.)

If a tire is directional, that means it can only turn in one direction. Which means that unless you want to unmount the tires from the wheels and remount and balance them (which is kind of silly), your only rotation option is front-to-back, keeping all tires on the same side of the car they started on.

By the way, this whole endeavor started because everyone I know with a Subaru warned me to get the tires rotated on a regular basis, because uneven wear could ruin the all-wheel drive train. And the Subaru is my wife's car, and she likes to get all her work done at the dealer, who charges through the nose for tire rotation. For the price of 20,000 miles worth of rotations, I can buy a torque wrench! And finding an excuse to buy new tools is always good.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

By the way, this whole endeavor started because everyone I know with a Subaru warned me to get the tires rotated on a regular basis, because uneven wear could ruin the all-wheel drive train.

I seriously doubt that this would happen - I don't think the drive train is designed in a way which would allow wind-up (the damaging thing) to occur. If you ask me, turning corners is more likely to damage the drive train than tyre wear.

Most likely those Scooby owners are just looking for an excuse to play WRC mechanic. And buy wrenches. Which, don't get me wrong, is a good thing. Garage, wrench, beer, no wife nagging. Bliss.

[Dork.]

Except, when you add being a parent on top of all that, finding some spare time when I can work on the car uninterrupted is the real bliss. I could always just say that I was going to work on the car for an hour, and then just sit in it and listen to the ballgame, but my team isn't on the radio here.

In any case, the way it was explained to me is that as the tires start to wear unevenly, the diameter of one tire relative to the other could change slightly, which would screw up the differentials that the Subarus use for the all-wheel drive. And somehow, all-wheel drive is different than four-wheel drive. But you're right, the main proponent of frequent tire rotations is a WRX fanatic with a need for compensation, so maybe he's overstating his case a bit....

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Am I missing anything?

+

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

...And buy wrenches.

"wrench?"

I thought you guys said "spanner" on your side of the pond. Unless you were talking to us 'merkins.

[Sherman Homan]

but make sure you have a vehicle to attach them to first.

Excellent point.

My tires rotate whenever my car is moving.

Then you have a car that has to have its tires rotated while it is moving. Tricky, but it can be done.
Send pictures!

[KisforKennedy]

Originally Posted by design219 

In the early days of radial tires, the advice was to only rotate front to back so the tires are still going the same direction. I don't know if that advice is still valid today.

Oh, and I second the beer.

Only on tires with a directional treadpattern.

[KisforKennedy]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

The tires on my car are directional, so front-to-back is all I'm doing there. My wife's car is a Subaru with their all-wheel drive, and I've read mixed things about which tire rotation pattern to use, so I'm sticking with front-to-back there, too.

About the subie: If they're non directional you can crossover, but you should really be rotating the subie's tires about every 5,000 miles, NOT every 10,000 miles. Reason being, if the fronts wear faster (and they should be wearing faster since it has more weight on it), they will have a small circumference. Smaller circ. on the front tires compared to the rear = your center diff is slipping, building up heat, and wearing the clutches prematurely. Rotating every 5k helps keep the wear a lot more even, which will make your transmission last longer.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by KisforKennedy 

Reason being, if the fronts wear faster (and they should be wearing faster since it has more weight on it), they will have a small circumference. Smaller circ. on the front tires compared to the rear = your center diff is slipping, building up heat, and wearing the clutches prematurely.

But every time you go around any kind of corner, your rear wheels travel less distance than your fronts. Which equals the centre diff slipping.

It's designed to slip. That's why it's a diff and not a fully locked transfer case.

[KisforKennedy]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

But every time you go around any kind of corner, your rear wheels travel less distance than your fronts. Which equals the centre diff slipping.

It's designed to slip. That's why it's a diff and not a fully locked transfer case.

True. But that is what it is designed to do. That is NORMAL wear. HOWEVER, with smaller tire circ compared to the rear, the center diff will be slipping ALL THE TIME, even when going straight, and it will quickly wear out the center pack clutches and cost you a few thousand dollars to fix.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR 

Got one of those (not as big, though).

Why do I need one of those when I have one of these (and two arms)...

[Spliffdaddy]

Back when I was younger (ages ago) I owned a bunch of those VW Rabbits and whatnot. The front tires would wear out in about 20,000 miles, but the rear tires were good for at least 100,000 miles. At first I rotated the tires so they would wear evenly. Then it occurred to me that I had to buy tires 4 at a time. So I stopped rotating the tires. After that I only had to buy 2 tires for the front of the car about twice a year. Still, I never rotate tires on any of my vehicles. If I had an all-wheel-drive I might do it. But you end up using X amount of tire per given mileage - no matter what you do. It's easier to budget for 2 tires. 4 of 'em can set you back $400 pretty easy.

[Gankdawg]

I take my car to the local quick lube place (which also sells tires) and have them change oil and rotate the tires for $35, every 5000 miles.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Eug 

My tires rotate whenever my car is moving.

Winnar

-t

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

Back when I was younger (ages ago) I owned a bunch of those VW Rabbits and whatnot. The front tires would wear out in about 20,000 miles, but the rear tires were good for at least 100,000 miles. At first I rotated the tires so they would wear evenly. Then it occurred to me that I had to buy tires 4 at a time. So I stopped rotating the tires. After that I only had to buy 2 tires for the front of the car about twice a year. Still, I never rotate tires on any of my vehicles. If I had an all-wheel-drive I might do it. But you end up using X amount of tire per given mileage - no matter what you do. It's easier to budget for 2 tires. 4 of 'em can set you back $400 pretty easy.

I never thought of this, so yeah my wife has a FWD car and we rotate every 5K should I just stop rotating? Is it really a waste of my time? Anyone else care to chime in?

[Mediaman_12]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Got one of those (not as big, though).



Why do I need one of those when I have one of these (and two arms)...

You can also carry that in the Boot/Trunk. If you lock the nuts up with the air ratchet /wrench and you get a puncture, you are going to be calling the rescue truck. As you are not going to be able to unlock the nuts. Also if you have alloy wheels you have a good chance of damaging them with the ratchet, unless you are really careful.

[KisforKennedy]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

Back when I was younger (ages ago) I owned a bunch of those VW Rabbits and whatnot. The front tires would wear out in about 20,000 miles, but the rear tires were good for at least 100,000 miles. At first I rotated the tires so they would wear evenly. Then it occurred to me that I had to buy tires 4 at a time. So I stopped rotating the tires. After that I only had to buy 2 tires for the front of the car about twice a year. Still, I never rotate tires on any of my vehicles. If I had an all-wheel-drive I might do it. But you end up using X amount of tire per given mileage - no matter what you do. It's easier to budget for 2 tires. 4 of 'em can set you back $400 pretty easy.

That won't work on an AWD vehicle like a subie, or almost ANY vehicle with awd really. You'll wear out your center pack clutches and pay hefty amounts for transmission work. Also, a car is much easier to control with 4 EVENLY worn tires than 2 new ones in front, and two kinda worn ones in the back. Even tire wear on all 4 tires= predictable handling. Quit being lazy. Buy a set of 4 NICE tires, and they should ALL last you about 60,000 miles. I have some AA traction yokohamas on my Subie that were rated for 30,000 miles, but I currently have about 50,000 on them.

[KisforKennedy]

Originally Posted by zerostar 

I never thought of this, so yeah my wife has a FWD car and we rotate every 5K should I just stop rotating? Is it really a waste of my time? Anyone else care to chime in?

It's sorta wasting your time. On a fwd car unless you're carving canyons on a daily basis, you should rotate more like every 10k. But no, it's not a waste of time. If you replace only TWO tires at a time, you wind up with the front end having much more grip than the rear end, or vice versa, and the suspension engineers designed the car to have FOUR TIRES of about the same grip. With mismatched tires, you change this, which can alter your handling. Also worth noting, your resale value on a car with mismatched or unevenly worn tires is quite a bit lower than a car with 4 evenly worn, matching tires.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

Back when I was younger (ages ago) I owned a bunch of those VW Rabbits and whatnot. The front tires would wear out in about 20,000 miles, but the rear tires were good for at least 100,000 miles. At first I rotated the tires so they would wear evenly. Then it occurred to me that I had to buy tires 4 at a time. So I stopped rotating the tires. After that I only had to buy 2 tires for the front of the car about twice a year. Still, I never rotate tires on any of my vehicles. If I had an all-wheel-drive I might do it. But you end up using X amount of tire per given mileage - no matter what you do. It's easier to budget for 2 tires. 4 of 'em can set you back $400 pretty easy.

You should definitely be able to get at least 40,000 miles out of four properly inflated, properly balanced, regularly rotated tires, especially if you're paying a hundred bucks a piece.

So let us assume that you're paying $100 a piece for tires ( which would be a lot of money for vw rabbit tires, what are you running 17's on that thing?) and you replace the front tires five times every 100,000 miles and replace the rear tires once every 100,000 miles, you would spend $1200 on 100,000 miles worth of tires.

If you replace all four tires every 40,000 miles you could go 120,000 miles for $1200, assuming you kept the tires properly inflated, balanced and rotated.

In addition to what cash said, as the tread gets lower, the tire wears considerably faster for a variety of reasons, one being that more brake pressure must be applied when the tread is low. This is why it is cheaper to rotate tires and purchase four at a time. You also tend to get somewhat reduced fuel efficiency when treads are low and uneven.

Another problem I see with buying two tires at a time is at some point you're going to have a hell of a time finding tires with a tread design that matches the other two.

[KisforKennedy]

yeah, on the 92 Accord I have now, we had over 75,000 on the last set of michilens. Michelins. Whatever. They were rated for 50 or 60k, but we replaced them at 76,000. Course, they weren't ultra high performance tires, they were just nice all seasons.

[Dork.]

I've never had a set of tires on my Jetta last more than 35k miles, even the Michelins that are rated for 50k or 60k. It could be the winters here. A friend recommended Toyo tires (the directional ones), so we'll see how long they last. I'm also going to try snow tires this winter.

[KisforKennedy]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

I've never had a set of tires on my Jetta last more than 35k miles, even the Michelins that are rated for 50k or 60k. It could be the winters here. A friend recommended Toyo tires (the directional ones), so we'll see how long they last. I'm also going to try snow tires this winter.

Hint: You have shitty alignment. Period. Unless you drive like a nutcase, this is the only reason.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by KisforKennedy 

Hint: You have shitty alignment. Period. Unless you drive like a nutcase, this is the only reason.

Road surface quality?

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by KisforKennedy 

Hint: You have shitty alignment. Period. Unless you drive like a nutcase, this is the only reason.

Could be. This time, I got my tires (and my alignment) from a different place than I have been going to the past few years. Maybe those guys didn't know what they were doing....

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by KisforKennedy 

Hint: You have shitty alignment. Period. Unless you drive like a nutcase, this is the only reason.

I drive fcuking crazy about 90% of the time and I still can get about 45,000 miles out of a set of MXV4 Pilots.