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besson3c · Jul 16, 2007, 05:47 PM

Virtually everybody in the business is playing the same game, yet few seem wise to it (or care): everybody wants to control your data, and in doing so lock you in to their service by making interoperability difficult, if not impossible.

The cell phone carriers play this game in a big way. Making it difficult to get data to and from your phone is one way (forcing you to pay several dollars for something as simple as a ringtone), forcing you to subscribe to AT&T to use the iPhone is another.

Microsoft plays this game in a very big way with Office file formats, with their email server, and with several other products of theirs.

Apple/Microsoft/Real do this with their video formats, their DRM (if Real has any, I don't know), and in doing so control who accesses what content.

Apple does this with .Mac integration, closing their hardware, with Quicktime, and with some of their other formats and policies.

The free email providers (Yahoo, Google, Microsoft) do this in a very big way by not offering an export (or often import) function. Some are partnering with universities and forcing ads on students once they graduate.

Now, I'm not trying to suggest that everything should be open, or that nobody should make money, or that there aren't technical reasons for some of this. I don't really wish to pick apart any of my examples, because I'm sure we can agree that there is a lot of this in the industry, and we could surely sit here all day coming up with examples.

My question is, will we reach a point where customers get pissed off enough about all of this sort of manipulation and attempts to control us enough to actually care? Or, will this continue to get worse and worse? Do you try to explain to people how it is that their free email is free, or that if they make a particular decision they make have a difficult time reversing it later? In your experience, are most people sheep, or do ears perk sometimes when you explain some of this?

KisforKennedy · Jul 16, 2007, 06:11 PM

I already have. I won't go near a Toshiba product ever EVER again. EVER. They have made sure I won't give them a penny for the rest of my life, after the e740 disaster. Gee, let's make a crazy awesome PDA with specs that still rival today's PDAs! Then include horrible drivers so it sorta kinda works, but promise we'll update them! Then release a new model instead, and NEVER FIX THE OS, BUGS, DRIVERS, OR ANYTHING THAT SHIPPED WITH THE 740! Then pull out of the market completely when too many e740 owners get pissed off and complain!

****ing assholes.

Uncle Skeleton · Jul 16, 2007, 06:13 PM

I think it won't get worse and it won't get better. There's no free lunch, and the level of irritation we go through is just about the right amount to be worth it for the basically free content/products/services we're getting.

mduell · Jul 16, 2007, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

The free email providers (Yahoo, Google, Microsoft) do this in a very big way by not offering an export (or often import) function. Some are partnering with universities and forcing ads on students once they graduate.

Huh? Gmail lets you easily import (via POP3 or IMAP) and export (via POP3).

besson3c · Jul 16, 2007, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Huh? Gmail lets you easily import (via POP3 or IMAP) and export (via POP3).

GMail does not offer standalone IMAP access:

IMAP for Gmail

I did mean import through their web client, which is what most people will be using, but good point here about using POP3 to do this (and setting it to leave a copy on the server)....

Sherman Homan · Jul 16, 2007, 08:49 PM

The consumers revolt against tech companies all the time. Mostly, it is a silent revolt.
Wanna buy a Zune?
Cheap?
How about some Compaq stock?

PEPPERRULES · Jul 16, 2007, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sherman Homan

The consumers revolt against tech companies all the time. Mostly, it is a silent revolt.
Wanna buy a Zune?
Cheap?
How about some Compaq stock?

Didn't Compaq merge with HP? Maybe I'm mistaken.

Ghoser777 · Jul 16, 2007, 10:17 PM

We attack tonight... this time I really mean it!

Brass · Jul 16, 2007, 10:41 PM

IT Management are more to blame here than many others (at least where I work). They don't give a stuff about standards, and are more interested in the "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" kind of mentality.

Every time a new product decision has to be made, I suggest we should aim for open standards where possible (which doesn't necessarily mean free, as in beer), but at least in means no lock-in. But every time, they end up going for a lock-in product.

These days, it's all MS. MS have management here by the balls. I think management are more susceptible to FUD due to the nature of their responsibilities.

Jawbone54 · Jul 17, 2007, 12:29 AM

The vast majority of people using these products aren't really even aware of any of this.

The answer: probably never.

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 17, 2007, 12:35 AM

Here goes besson3c on his anti-competitive, anti-big company, anti-capitalist rant because there aren't enough Linux using communists with "free" healthcare in the world.

Jawbone54 · Jul 17, 2007, 12:50 AM

Uh oh...

Chuckit · Jul 17, 2007, 01:15 AM

People don't revolt against things they can barely give a crap about and have no choice in. People have been drinking Starbucks' swill for years and complaining about dishonest politicians for even longer. Ultimately, they don't really care that much. If they're not going to revolt against that stuff, they're certainly not going to revolt against an entire market.

Also, I'm not sure why you think H.264 (the codec Apple is pushing right now) is proprietary.

KisforKennedy · Jul 17, 2007, 01:20 AM

Gamecube sucks. The end.

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 17, 2007, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

People don't revolt against things they can barely give a crap about and have no choice in.

People don't revolt against stuff they find useful, especially when they don't have some silly communist "everything should be free" fantasy. You'll notice those who complain the most are also the least productive.

Chuckit · Jul 17, 2007, 01:26 AM

Well, I mean, I don't think anybody finds the Office file format particularly useful, but it's not as though they have a choice in the matter or care enough that they'd make one even if they could.

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 17, 2007, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Well, I mean, I don't think anybody finds the Office file format particularly useful, but it's not as though they have a choice in the matter or care enough that they'd make one even if they could.

They don't find it useless either. If it was useless we'd have an open document format for all text based documents and an open graphic format too. The reason we have different formats is because the way they are being encoded is always changing. Companies try to beat each other at achieving the most features in their formats. That's the nature of competition. Without that you get the same slow progress of the Linux community that hardly ever innovates.

Dakarʒ · Jul 17, 2007, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoser777

We attack tonight... this time I really mean it!

I'm right behind you man! When you start, I will too!

besson3c · Jul 17, 2007, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

People don't revolt against things they can barely give a crap about and have no choice in. People have been drinking Starbucks' swill for years and complaining about dishonest politicians for even longer. Ultimately, they don't really care that much. If they're not going to revolt against that stuff, they're certainly not going to revolt against an entire market.

Also, I'm not sure why you think H.264 (the codec Apple is pushing right now) is proprietary.

Huh? Where did I give the impression that I thought that H.264 is proprietary?

I'm afraid that you are probably right about people as a whole... I was hoping something in this thread would give me something to be optimistic about

Jawbone54 · Jul 17, 2007, 08:55 AM

Sorry, then.

Dakarʒ · Jul 17, 2007, 08:57 AM

Revolting would require going without these products for any given amount of time. Foresight and sacrifice aren't in the American vocabulary.

selowitch · Jul 17, 2007, 09:06 AM

In America, we vote (and revolt) with our pocketbooks. If you don't like a product, its implementation, or the policies of the company that made it, then don't buy it. Complain about it on blogs and on MacNN, etc. If enough folks do that, the message will certainly be received.

In extreme cases, we could all show up in a big city with copies of the product and have something like a Boston Tea Party in which we all melt down our Zunes to make ashtrays (that way they'd be at least somewhat useful). Now that would be some righteous YouTube-worthy footage right there!

besson3c · Jul 17, 2007, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by selowitch

In America, we vote (and revolt) with our pocketbooks. If you don't like a product, its implementation, or the policies of the company that made it, then don't buy it. Complain about it on blogs and on MacNN, etc. If enough folks do that, the message will certainly be received.

In extreme cases, we could all show up in a big city with copies of the product and have something like a Boston Tea Party in which we all melt down our Zunes to make ashtrays (that way they'd be at least somewhat useful). Now that would be some righteous YouTube-worthy footage right there!

If enough folks do that, the message would be received, but the question is: how do we get even some folks to understand and care?

This problem seems to got progressively worse each day, and it seems like consumers just come along for the ride. If this continues, where will it lead us? Fees to switch to another product? Cool stuff no longer made in America?

selowitch · 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

If enough folks do that, the message would be received, but the question is: how do we get even some folks to understand and care?

I guess that's where we have to try to educate people to the extent possible.

This problem seems to got progressively worse each day, and it seems like consumers just come along for the ride. If this continues, where will it lead us? Fees to switch to another product? Cool stuff no longer made in America?

We're already there.

Maybe we need some new laws and regulations. I'm usually in favor of a free market, but perhaps the fleecing of the consumer has become so rampant that it actually harms the marketplace to let things work via the Invisible Hand. It may have reached the point where things are so broken that even government action is unlikly to make it worse, and so it's okay to go ahead and regulate as far as I'm concerned. ;-)

NobleMatt · Jul 17, 2007, 10:05 AM

i think if alot more things were open we wouldnt be seeing the kind of progression in tech we have now, companies wouldnt be pushing so hard to be bigger and better than the other.

Nothings ever free, and wont ever be, theres always a catch otherwise why bothere doing it in the first place?

Matt

besson3c · 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by crazyreaper

i think if alot more things were open we wouldnt be seeing the kind of progression in tech we have now, companies wouldnt be pushing so hard to be bigger and better than the other.

Nothings ever free, and wont ever be, theres always a catch otherwise why bothere doing it in the first place?

Matt

Not that this argument was intended to be about free vs. proprietary (it wasn't), but I'd say that companies aren't pushing to be bigger and better, but are pushing to control your data and/or the market (which would in turn allow them to control your data).

Look at search. Why would MIcrosoft enter this arena? To do search better than Google, a household name now that everybody knows does search well? No, they want to control data.

Look at the iPod. Why would Microsoft enter this arena? Because they think they can make a better iPod? No, because they want greater control of the market to push more Windows Media.

Look at IE Windows. Why would Microsoft not make their browser standards compliant? Because they want this to be the only browser people use on the internet.

You could keep on going, but my point is that very few companies are actually interested in technical excellence, but simply dominance and control of a market and its content.

Like I said, this isn't about free vs. proprietary though. You can be proprietary without forcing lock-in.

Dakarʒ · Jul 17, 2007, 10:30 AM

It's not about dominance and control of the market. It's about making money. They merely see that as the easiest path to doing so for an extended period of time.

Edit: There's not a whole lot of reason for companies to be interested in technical excellence. See DVD vs Next Gen. Those are just flying off the shelves...

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 17, 2007, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

You could keep on going, but my point is that very few companies are actually interested in technical excellence, but simply dominance and control of a market and its content.

Care to mention 10 important innovations from the Linux community?

Chuckit · Jul 17, 2007, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ

It's not about dominance and control of the market. It's about making money. They merely see that as the easiest path to doing so for an extended period of time.

And ultimately it's about the people in charge wanting to be happy. In the immediate situation, however, it's about trying to get a stranglehold on the market.

EDIT: Can somebody find the new admin and flog him with a fish? These textboxes are ****ing annoying.

besson3c · Jul 17, 2007, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ

It's not about dominance and control of the market. It's about making money. They merely see that as the easiest path to doing so for an extended period of time.

Edit: There's not a whole lot of reason for companies to be interested in technical excellence. See DVD vs Next Gen. Those are just flying off the shelves...

True... I guess I see dominance and making money as going hand in hand - inseparable

besson3c · Jul 17, 2007, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

And ultimately it's about the people in charge wanting to be happy. In the immediate situation, however, it's about trying to get a stranglehold on the market.

Agreed...

Would you say that this sort of thing actually stifles technological progress and innovation?

Dakarʒ · Jul 17, 2007, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

True... I guess I see dominance and making money as going hand in hand, inseparable

If that were true, Apple would have died long ago.

besson3c · Jul 17, 2007, 10:38 AM

Dakar,

Sure you can make money without dominating, but it is much harder.

Seemingly most companies have learned that lock-in is a great tactic that can be used along the way to make things much easier for them.

Perhaps the many innovations that have come out of the open source community would not exist if there was no dissatisfaction with these companies though.