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Lava Lamp Freak · Jul 27, 2007, 04:09 PM

This is just horrible. Two helicopters covering a chase collided. Three deaths have been reported so far, though I can't imagine anyone would survive that.

Two helicopters collide over Phoenix - Yahoo! News

Warning, this is footage taken from one of the helicopters that crashed.
Breitbart.tv � ONLINE EXCLUSIVE: Final Moments Live as the New Helicopters Collide (Warning - Graphic)

Dakarʒ · Jul 27, 2007, 04:17 PM

I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

Everytime I watch one of those chases on tv, I inevitably see another helicopter cut through the foreground.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jul 27, 2007, 04:21 PM

Damn.

TheoCryst · Jul 27, 2007, 04:44 PM

Holy s***.

Tomchu · Jul 27, 2007, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Damn.

Off-topic, but ... your signature image is disgusting. Just, you know, sayin'. :-P

design219 · Jul 27, 2007, 08:45 PM

Just awful.

KeriVit · Jul 27, 2007, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Off-topic, but ... your signature image is disgusting. Just, you know, sayin'. :-P

See THE sig Thread Read. Discuss. Then get back on topic.

Andy8 · Jul 27, 2007, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Off-topic, but ... your signature image is disgusting. Just, you know, sayin'. :-P

Off topic - You can turn off sig displays, problem fixed.

On topic - sad to see this happen, but don't these guys have some rules to follow when flying around together is close proximity to each other?

davesimondotcom · Jul 27, 2007, 09:50 PM

Curious whether the guy leading the police on a chase is responsible in any legal way for this...

OldManMac · Jul 27, 2007, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Curious whether the guy leading the police on a chase is responsible in any legal way for this...

According to this, it may be possible, although it shouldn't be.

Choppers covering chase crash; 4 killed - U.S. Life - MSNBC.com

rickey939 · Jul 27, 2007, 10:40 PM

Un-flippin-real....

Buckaroo · Jul 27, 2007, 11:19 PM

I wonder, should the car jacker be charged with four counts of involuntary murder? His actions did result in the deaths of 4 people. It was not intentional, but they would be alive if he had not started this car chase.

zro · Jul 27, 2007, 11:54 PM

They would be alive if the pilots hadn't collided. I think an injunction should be handed down that stops this type of photojournalism.

I wonder if the FAA will have anything to say about it.

Lava Lamp Freak · Jul 27, 2007, 11:54 PM

I don't see how that could hold up in court. I mean, if someone driving down the road was rubbernecking and had a wreck and died, could they charge him with their death?

KeriVit · Jul 27, 2007, 11:59 PM

hmmmm... nah, I can't say he was at fault. Our press needs to take responsibility for some things they do.... Anyone remember Lady Di? The pilots clearly should have let their reporters do the lookin'. We are all human and we amke mistakes but the collision was caused by pilots not paying attention rather than the fleeing guy.

OldManMac · Jul 28, 2007, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

I wonder, should the car jacker be charged with four counts of involuntary murder? His actions did result in the deaths of 4 people. It was not intentional, but they would be alive if he had not started this car chase.

No, his actions did not cause the deaths of four people. Two helicopter pilots who apparently didn't know they were too close to each other caused the deaths of 4 people. When they pilot the choppers, they're responsible for knowing what they're doing; unfortunately, they paid the ultimate price for their mistakes. If this and if that doesn't change the facts. If I'm driving down the road and I see a naked woman by the side of the road, and I gawk at her, and run someone else over, it's my fault; I'm piloting the car and the one responsible.

peeb · Jul 28, 2007, 12:08 AM

Tragic, but isn't there some poetic justice to this? I mean, they make their living shooting vacuous sensationlist infotainment of other people's misfortune, and become just that?

Ganesha · Jul 28, 2007, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by peeb

Tragic, but isn't there some poetic justice to this? I mean, they make their living shooting vacuous sensationlist infotainment of other people's misfortune, and become just that?

I'm sure people just have the misfortune of breaking the law.

peeb · Jul 28, 2007, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Ganesha

I'm sure people just have the misfortune of breaking the law.

Well, highway chases don't only affect the people being chase. Frankly, these days, I have no idea why police engage in chases. The could just as easily track the car from the air, and pick it up when it runs out of fuel or stops.

iranfromthezoo · Jul 28, 2007, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

Well, highway chases don't only affect the people being chase. Frankly, these days, I have no idea why police engage in chases. The could just as easily track the car from the air, and pick it up when it runs out of fuel or stops.

That's what the Phoenix PD did. They tracked it from the air. The PD units held back without lights or sirens and drove normal speeds. The guy got out and the police were on him as soon as he got out. That standard policy.

I understand where you are coming from about how some chases are stupid. BUT some chases are necessary. Granted it puts the publics life and the officers in danger. But you driving down the road everyday puts you in danger.

Lava Lamp Freak · Jul 30, 2007, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by KeriVit

The pilots clearly should have let their reporters do the lookin'.

The pilots of the helicopters were the reporters. They had someone manning the camera, but the pilots were watching the scene and reporting on what was happening. The pilots were in communication with each other, and one even told the other he was right on top of him.

I had a close call a couple years ago while I was taking flight instruction. Another plane reported their position -- the exact same location as us, just 100 feet lower. It scared the crap out of me and the instructor until we realized that the idiot was over another highway about a mile away, and he just didn't know where he was.

If you've ever piloted small aircraft you know how dangerous it can be. It is very easy to miss other aircraft. You have to be paying attention constantly and stay in communication with other pilots. These news helicopters have a dangerous job trying to handle so much at once.

KeriVit · Jul 30, 2007, 12:27 PM

Oh. Consider me better informed now. Thank you.

mrtew · Jul 30, 2007, 10:04 PM

You're always responsible for any deaths that occur during a commission of a felony. This is not some new or farfetched idea. It's established law.

Lava Lamp Freak · Jul 30, 2007, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

You're always responsible for any deaths that occur during a commission of a felony. This is not some new or farfetched idea. It's established law.

This is a little different from the established laws. We'll see what happens, but, after listening to TV commentary, it seems doubtful it'll stick. I'm all for people being punished for their crimes. This was a tragedy, but I do not believe it is lawful to charge this man with the deaths of the people in the helicopters.

KeriVit · Jul 30, 2007, 10:33 PM

Thank _______ the guys in TX lived. (Different crash.)

OldManMac · Jul 30, 2007, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

You're always responsible for any deaths that occur during a commission of a felony. This is not some new or farfetched idea. It's established law.

If you rob a bank, and in the escape attempt, you run over someone with your vehicle, you should be held responsible. The reporting of a crime in progress has nothing to do directly with the crime or with the actions of the alleged criminal. The chopper pilots could have crashed into each other for any of a number of reasons. For the sake of argument, let's say a wild animal escaped from the zoo and was wandering around a populated area, and the choppers following the story crashed; are we then to hold the wild animal responsible to some degree for the death of the chopper crews? The pilots' first, and most important, duty is to see to it that they operate their choppers in such a manner as to return safely to their base, without injuring themselves or any other people that may be present in the vicinity where they fly. That isn't the responsibility of someone fleeing police, nor does that fleeing person have any effect on the safe operation of the helicopters. The pilots, had they survived a crash, couldn't very well point their fingers at this fleeing suspect and say, "He made me crash my chopper; he's responsible for me operating this vehicle in a safe fashion." One can't simply say, "Well, if he hadn't been fleeing from the police, I wouldn't have crashed." That would ludicrous, and this is nothing but grandstanding by the prosecution, and to reach any other conclusion is a stretch at best. It's always fascinating when people talk about personal responsibility, but when they get a chance to assign blame to someone else, they don't hesitate a second.

I don't doubt that the prosecutor may attempt to charge this guy. If he does, all that shows is his dishonest application of the laws that he's supposed to uphold. No matter the outcome, the fleeing suspect had nothing to do with the crash of the choppers, and there's no way around that.

macintologist · Jul 30, 2007, 11:02 PM

The guy in the truck is in no way responsible for the death of those pilots. They flew the choppers. They crashed. They paid the ultimate price.

If I were a defense attorney I'd be all over those charges.

OldManMac · Jul 30, 2007, 11:09 PM

Exactly. Using the spurious logic of the prosecution, I could be driving my car, listening over the radio to this event unfolding, get wrapped up in it, crash my vehicle, kill someone, and then claim it was this guy's fault. He caused me to drive my car in an unsafe manner, so it's his fault. That's just preposterous. If he does get charged for these deaths, then we know there's a hidden agenda on the part of the prosecutor. I would certainly hope logic will prevail, but there are lots of people in jails and prisons on trumped up charges, as well as those imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit.

Wiskedjak · Jul 31, 2007, 12:01 AM

I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner. There should be rules around how many civilian aircraft can be in a given area at a time.

Was the driver of the car responsible for the crash? No. The pilots of the helicopters didn't need to be covering the chase.

iranfromthezoo · Jul 31, 2007, 10:21 AM

I was talking about this kinda thing the other day with a Sheriffs Deputy friend of mine. I had asked how could they charge Lindsay Lohan with bringing a controlled substance into a jail facility (from her DUI the other night)? Its not like it was her idea to walk into the place with blow in her pocket, she was under arrest and they took her there.

He said that its common practice to throw any charge you can think at someone. They dont expect them all to stick, but they do it anyway. Im sure thats part of the story here as well...